Suggestion about a water pump.

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Early Power.

Post by BlackMoon »

Hi, It has often bugged me that water pumps don't use power. I know why, because how else do you get power early on?

as such, I have thought of some alternatives. One is a manual water pump (pumps when you stand near it? or click and hold on it?). Not very useful outside of this one use however.

Another, much more attractive idea is treadmills. You could get power by walking in the direction against moving treadmill belts. Maybe even extract power from those pesky aliens who keep walking along certain passageways.

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Re: Early Power.

Post by DerivePi »

Yes, enslave the natives to do manual labor. How European of you :D

I think I suggested something similar in regards to the free transporter belt (non) problem (a bit tongue in cheek). A big consideration is the cost in fun vs the gain in realism, especially when you consider first time players.

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Re: Early Power.

Post by The Phoenixian »

BlackMoon wrote:Hi, It has often bugged me that water pumps don't use power. I know why, because how else do you get power early on?

as such, I have thought of some alternatives. One is a manual water pump (pumps when you stand near it? or click and hold on it?). Not very useful outside of this one use however.

Another, much more attractive idea is treadmills. You could get power by walking in the direction against moving treadmill belts. Maybe even extract power from those pesky aliens who keep walking along certain passageways.
Here's a few possible reasons pumps don't need power.

Stupid Handwave: Perhaps the real way that offshore pumps get power is by originating their motive force from the boilers. If pipe sections have axles running along their length then the burner action from the boilers can also serve as mechanical power for the pump.

Slightly less stupid Handwave: As we have no height maps, who's to say that the (first set of) boilers aren't always downhill from their water source and the offshore pumps aren't actually just siphons.

Weird Handwave: These pumps contain just enough solar panels to bring up power if they go down.

*breathing* I Handwaving the question; Pray I do not Handwave it any further *breathing*: Pipes laid out towards pumps contain not Axles, but also conductive (iron?) cabling. Once the machine has started, it doesn't need whatever other form of motive force it started with and does in fact use electricity from the grid, (After all, a water pump will always lead into either a chemical plant or steam engine in the end.)
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Re: Early Power.

Post by Coolthulhu »

Manual pumping could be added to make it more tedious at the very start and after a blackout, but pumps already get their power from the same source belts do.


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[1] https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 256#p40256
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Re: Early Power.

Post by SilverWarior »

What I would like to see is that initial water pumps are powered directly by windmil. That is the way first automated pumps were made, bseides of using animals or pepole as labor force.

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Suggestion about a water pump.

Post by _xqr »

Currently, the Water Pump is working by some magic powers. What I want to suggest, is to add a manual pump and an automatic one which would require an electricity.

A manual pump would be only used in an early game when you need to feed boilers and steam engines with water, and then you can connect your automatic pump to your electric circuit network so it would do a dirty work for you. The Player would "dig" (hold right mouse button) a manual pump to get it to work, the pump would have a lot of HP so it wouldn't break after awhile but could suck enough water just to feed Steam engines and to get electricity.

It's just a QOL suggestion, would add some minor difficulty. Thanks for reading!

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Re: Suggestion about a water pump.

Post by ssilk »

And why do you think should I use the other two, when I have a cheap, magic Offshore Pump? :)

Or do you mean to remove the current Offshore Pump? That is not such a good idea, cause if you don't have any power you have also no water. Same not so lucky idea as to add need for power to the belts (cause they're also "magic").
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Re: Suggestion about a water pump.

Post by <NO_NAME> »

ssilk wrote:That is not such a good idea, cause if you don't have any power you have also no water.
It is not a flaw in this idea, it is the essence of this idea. No electricity -> no water and you have to use the manual water pump to make everything run again. Although, I would change manual pump to burner pump, so it would be possible to build system for automatic power restore.
I agree with _xqr that remove the offshore pump from game is a good idea. I don't know why but these magic pumps always bother me. It's maybe because it is not only unrealistic but also easy to fix. It is so pointless. It is not that hard for players to create system that feeds pumps with coal if they need that (in contrast to conveyor belts), so what is the purpose of the magic offshore pumps.
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Re: Suggestion about a water pump.

Post by ssilk »

<NO_NAME> wrote:It is not a flaw in this idea, it is the essence of this idea. No electricity -> no water and you have to use the manual water pump to make everything run again.
I'm sure, you think that is a good idea, but it isn't. :)
Although, I would change manual pump to burner pump, so it would be possible to build system for automatic power restore.
Did you read the linked posts. I'm nearly sure that all has already been suggested.
The result was, that it is a good idea to add a burner to the current offshore pump, so that it pumps faster (so that you need only one, instead 2 to fill the pipe completely).
I agree with _xqr that remove the offshore pump from game is a good idea. I don't know why but these magic pumps always bother me.
I don't know why I need to explain the same stuff three times. :)
There are two reasons:
a) There is nearly no added game-value to have pumps, that need power. It's a bit of immersion, but you can explain that also with some kind of science/technology. Think to star-trek. ;)
b) You get too easy into a deadlock: No coal => no power => no water. It can be really, really hard to bring the energy to flow again if you don't have any power to mine it. In the middle-game you may need a coal per second to run the factory. It can be the dead of your whole game, if that happens in the middle of the game, cause you cannot defend anything.

Bringing something like that into Factorio - into any game - is for you maybe fun, but a beginner and even more experienced players will throw Factorio out of the window.
...
Inclusive themselves.
Would you like to be responsible for all the suicides? ;) :D
It's maybe because it is not only unrealistic but also easy to fix. It is so pointless. It is not that hard for players to create system that feeds pumps with coal if they need that (in contrast to conveyor belts), so what is the purpose of the magic offshore pumps.
You know what: I think it is easy to make a mod that does exactly that... ;)
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Re: Suggestion about a water pump.

Post by OdinYggd »

From a realism standpoint, it would make just as much sense to make a much smaller item- a 'portable steam engine'.

Said portable steam engine would have a 1x4 footprint, and would produce around 25KW of electrical power once its requirements were met. Such a ~30HP portable engine would have to be placed within 5 tiles of a water supply be it lake or water tank, and kept supplied with fuel. Oh and you can't put fuel in it using an inserter. Manual stoking only- after all every automatic stoker I've ever seen requires either a power grid or a supply of steam to operate, and at the point in the game that this would be used you would have neither. I somehow doubt you would use this item again after your main power station came online, though it would be wise to leave it sitting nearby for restarting if you had a shortage of coal.

With it though the offshore pump requiring electricity wouldn't be as big a deal, because you would always have that little engine somewhere nearby to power it and maybe a couple of the stokers on your main power station.

But as ssilk said, it probably would be best to keep this as a mod. People are already making mods to go the opposite direction and simplify the early game, starting the player with all the pieces of a power grid so they can get to building what they want faster, complicating the early game would only further encourage that sort of thing.
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Re: Suggestion about a water pump.

Post by mexmer »

ssilk wrote:
I agree with _xqr that remove the offshore pump from game is a good idea. I don't know why but these magic pumps always bother me.
I don't know why I need to explain the same stuff three times. :)
There are two reasons:
a) There is nearly no added game-value to have pumps, that need power. It's a bit of immersion, but you can explain that also with some kind of science/technology. Think to star-trek. ;)
b) You get too easy into a deadlock: No coal => no power => no water. It can be really, really hard to bring the energy to flow again if you don't have any power to mine it. In the middle-game you may need a coal per second to run the factory. It can be the dead of your whole game, if that happens in the middle of the game, cause you cannot defend anything.
sorry, but your point b is void, why i say so? because then, why we have burner drills? should not be they also magical, so you can mine coal, without need to put coal in?
burner minner runs on wood, same with burner offshore pump - no magic involved, then you can feed it (like boilers), with burner inserter.
there is no deadlock in using burner powered pump.

also whole offhsore pump is quite hightech compared to rest of starting tech, it uses circuit boards, and copper wiring, probly some electromotor is inside.

while i can understand, why did devs take "shorcut" here, it's very inconsistent with rest of startup tech and toolkit.

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Re: Suggestion about a water pump.

Post by ssilk »

mexmer wrote:sorry, but your point b is void, why i say so? because then, why we have burner drills?
Happy little trolling, eh? ;)
This is a game. It's all about having fun. Not realism; there is enough realism in reality for two of them.

Factorio wins no price, if it would be the most emergent game ever. It wins a price, cause playing it is fun. Fun doesn't mean that it is logically consequent. It means it is fun to use things, fun to make things. In other words: It has a high game-play-value.

And having fun means, that there is the right balance between repetition and new things. If you look at what needs fuel you see already some: Burner miners, the boilers, burner inserters, furnaces... An offshore pump, which needs fuel, doesn't make so much more fun as the previous, cause it is just another thing, that needs to be feed with fuel.
you can mine coal [with burner mining drill] ... and feed [burner offshore pump] with burner inserter.
Yes. That works of course. Until your miners run empty. :mrgreen:
At some point everything if this chain needs fuel. I'm not talking about the early game, I talk about the middle game, red, green and blue science...
In that age you need SOME energy and eventually don't have solar yet. In that age there is also the tendency that your coal fields run dry. If that happens, your factory slowly dies: There is already too much pollution in the air. The natives knocks every minute at your door. Beginners already have changed to lasers and don't have enough guns left, or no piercing ammo. Because the factory dies slowly, in the moment when you realize, that you have lost this game you cannot rollback far enough. You will throw Factorio out of the window.
there is no deadlock in using burner powered pump.
Well... I don't argue here.
It is very certain, that there is already some mod with such a pump... try it out, prove it.
very inconsistent with rest of startup tech and toolkit.
Taste... :)
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Re: Suggestion about a water pump.

Post by klaern »

I like the idea of requiring electricity for the offshore pump and adding a burner pump for water. It fits really well with the game and makes a lot of sense.

As for mid-game concerns, 99% of the time the offshore pump will have electricity. in the event of a brown out, or complete black out, you can use tanks to store hot water and hopefully get enough power back up before the tanks run dry. In the event that you don't buffer your hot water at all, and a momentary power outage could take out an electric pump, then have a burner pump as backup. Prioritzing some coal just for that system would mean you won't be out of coal mid game for your temporary backup pump.

I personally feel that it would be a ton of fun to manage more complex power systems and feel that the current power system is lacking. So anything that makes it more complex would be good and fun in my opinion. The gradual complexity of Factorio is why we all find it fun, this is just one more small system that adds to the great big challenge.

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Re: Suggestion about a water pump.

Post by <NO_NAME> »

ssilk wrote:
you can mine coal [with burner mining drill] ... and feed [burner offshore pump] with burner inserter.
Yes. That works of course. Until your miners run empty. :mrgreen:
At some point everything if this chain needs fuel. I'm not talking about the early game, I talk about the middle game, red, green and blue science...
In that age you need SOME energy and eventually don't have solar yet. In that age there is also the tendency that your coal fields run dry. If that happens, your factory slowly dies: There is already too much pollution in the air. The natives knocks every minute at your door. Beginners already have changed to lasers and don't have enough guns left, or no piercing ammo. Because the factory dies slowly, in the moment when you realize, that you have lost this game you cannot rollback far enough. You will throw Factorio out of the window.
Isn't it work like that already? I mean, if you run out of coal/wood/solid fuel, everything stops and offshore pumps cannot prevent that. Moreover, when the fuel is back again you are still screwed up if you haven't thought about that earlier by e.g. place burner inserters next to boilers. In my game I have a bunch of accumulators next to my power plants and system which automatically disconnects them from the rest of the power grid when power level is critical. This way I have always enough power to start my steam engines again. This saved me a few times. Electric water pumps wouldn't change a bit here,
By the way, a game is not fun because it is so easy that you can win it without any effort. It need to be a challenge. For example, I had screwed up my defense in the last one of tutorial missions. Natives came, destroyed my factory and I couldn't prevent it in any way. I had to restart the whole mission but i didn't "throw Factorio out of the window". I had learned how to build defense and I won the second game. (I have also learned to always have a backup in form of my older save file.) Knowing that the game does not win itself only adds to experience and motivates to build reliable systems which won't shut down completely every time when something unexpected happens. Why I would do that if I know that everything will be OK if I don't do. It is fun to create a good factory but you still need a proper motivation to do it.
ssilk wrote:And having fun means, that there is the right balance between repetition and new things. If you look at what needs fuel you see already some: Burner miners, the boilers, burner inserters, furnaces... An offshore pump, which needs fuel, doesn't make so much more fun as the previous, cause it is just another thing, that needs to be feed with fuel.
Actually, I suppose that it wouldn't be boring at all. Planing which offshore pumps need to be burner to not build additional coal track seems to be fun. I think that I would even manage to do that without changing my current layout of power plant.
It also would provoke players to more carefully plan their water distribution systems. I would say that it is pretty boring like it is now. If I need a water supply for just a single chemical plant, I just place another offshore pump close to that place. Why not if they are so cheap. But if they need an electricity or a fuel, I would plan them more carefully to avoid unnecessary cost.
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Re: Suggestion about a water pump.

Post by mexmer »

ssilk not enough fuel, or later on electrivity(if you will replace burner pump with electric pump at later stage, when you have tech for it, and burner inserters with regular inserters), is logistic problem you need to solve. i don't see any reason why water pumping should be exempt from that.

you might even make electric pumps with higher output (after researching electricity and engines), to give them some incentive in mid/late game. now only thing you need (if you need large quantities of water), is put magic pumps all over place, and that's it.

like i said, it's inconsistent. and yes the taste, i don't like to have magic device, when everything else is running on fuel or electricity later.

offshore pump actually breaks 2 of game "principles"
1) technology - too hightech compared to rest of staring kit (coal/wood powered) - no research required
2) logistic - slap pump anywhere, where is water and placement fits your need - no fuel or electricity needed to power it

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Re: Suggestion about a water pump.

Post by ssilk »

Well, I'm just the moderator, not the developer. But my impression was (and the last posts confirms that), that those, which are for this suggestion never had been in the situation of a complete power drop in the middle game; otherwise I couldn't explain the argumentation here. :)
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Re: Suggestion about a water pump.

Post by mexmer »

ssilk wrote:Well, I'm just the moderator, not the developer. But my impression was (and the last posts confirms that), that those, which are for this suggestion never had been in the situation of a complete power drop in the middle game; otherwise I couldn't explain the argumentation here. :)
you need to plan well, that's all.

learned hard way to make coal buffer for boilers, accumulators for covering defense (laser towers) power spikes, and such.

this still doesn't change fact, that magic pump is magic. most things in factorio have some downside, which usualy doesn't show up, if you plan well. water pump has literally none, you just slap it in place, and forget it exists. if they were replaced by "tube" connection on shore, you will not notice that, except initial cost of material will be missing. but they are cheap anyways (and no, i'm not suggesting to make them cost more).

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Re: Suggestion about a water pump.

Post by ssilk »

mexmer wrote:you need to plan well, that's all.
A beginner is not in the situation to do so, cause you can only plan, what you already know.
learned hard way to [... keep energy level high ...]
As me. Everyone has his own way and beginners play different than advanced. Cause of that the basic game needs to be low frustrating and high fun. Everything else is modding.
this still doesn't change fact, that magic pump is magic.
I don't want to discuss this anymore; it's useless, cause you are not reading my already made statements.
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Re: Suggestion about a water pump.

Post by mexmer »

ssilk wrote:
mexmer wrote:you need to plan well, that's all.
A beginner is not in the situation to do so, cause you can only plan, what you already know.
learned hard way to [... keep energy level high ...]
As me. Everyone has his own way and beginners play different than advanced. Cause of that the basic game needs to be low frustrating and high fun. Everything else is modding.
this still doesn't change fact, that magic pump is magic.
I don't want to discuss this anymore; it's useless, cause you are not reading my already made statements.
and you dissecting my response, and disregarding whatever i wrote in previous posts

so i sum up ideas from my preivous posts (also TL;DR reason)

1) offshore pump should be coal powered (eg. burner offshore pump) - this fits startgame tech, and player kit - and doesn't add any dificulties, except need to acount for it, when making coal line for boilers - expanding logistic problem
2) offshore pump layout will change to 2x1 - because hose still needs to be in water - like is now, but burner needs to be on land for inserter access
3) offshore pump research - which will give you electricity powered offshore pump - for feeding other stuff with water in mid/late (oil refinery, chemical furnace, and so on)

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Re: Suggestion about a water pump.

Post by Terukio »

I can see both sides of the story.

Yes planning for the potential of a power outage to keep that water pump primed with coal or wood is required if you remove the magic.

Yes this makes it more difficult for newer players to get started.

In my opinion, isn't Factorio all about automation and finding solutions to problems? So why would adding another step be out of the question?

ssilk is suggesting that a blackout in mid game would be detrimental to newer players and might make them quit the game...I think the opposite will happen. This will allow players to start a new factory with everything they have learned to make it more streamlined. Hasn't everyone redone their initial factory on their first play through anyways?

Also a blackout wont mean the end of the game. Sure if players completely ditched gun turrets for laser yes they will lose parts of their factory, but they probably still have gun turrets lying around to use to kill biters attacking their base. This should give them enough time to find a new power source.

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