Additions to the train system.

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.
Molay
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Additions to the train system.

Post by Molay » Fri May 02, 2014 8:08 am

Hello everyone,

I'll get right to the meat.
Let's start off with new Cargo Wagons.

Type 1: Tanker
The tanker is filled via the "small pump" object. It can contain any liquid, from water up to and including all substances from the petrochemical industry.
It would be an alternative to oil barrels, which is not quite the intention however. I want to use it for transport of sub-products, like sulfuric acid for example. Perhaps I want to ship lubricant.
Or I want to use my light fuel in a different place (near furnaces) than my petroleum (near industry). Would be really handy and fun to use!

Type 2: Split Cargo Wagon
(for lack of a better name :lol: )
The "Split Cargo Wagon" is as large as regular cargo wagon, but it's lower part is a separate "chest" than it's rear part. This, enabling it to be filled with a wider variety of goods on smaller space, especially if those goods are only needed in small quantities. Probably only able to be loaded by 1 inserter reliably, could be increased to 2 if at all possible. Nice brute-force approach to load multiple item types on limited space requirements.

Type 3: Smart Cargo Wagon
The "Smart Cargo Wagon", when filled by Smart Inserters, acts as though it was cabled by red/green wires. Thus, it is customizable like a smart chest would be. You can set your inserters to load a specific amount of goods, possibly up to 6 different types per wagon in limited, but precise, quantities. Could possibly be used to avoid "waste", too.

Type 4: Great Cargo Wagon
Just like a the regular cargo wagon, but can hold more goods.
Could be very useful for very long travel, where 100 seconds load/unload time as negligable compared to the travel time.

Type 5: Logistic Cargo Wagon
As soon as on a stop sign, will act as a Provider Chest. Thus enabling logistics bots to unload the train. Could be bad for very extensive logistic networks, but might be very useful on smaller networks. Long stops recommended!

Next, I'd propose to add a new Rails Type:

The Electric Rail Network:

Basically, they are rails with a power line dangling above them. They are obviously more costly to craft, as the rails now require copper, too.
They can be placed on top of the old rail network to modernize it (like you do with assembly machines or belts).
The Electric Rail Network serves a dual purpose:
First, it is a power link. Just like power poles, it leads electricity along. It does however not have a larger power field than the size of the rails, so to use the power you'd still have to place poles nearby.
Makes it easy and straightforward to extend power to outposts, without promoting gimmicky "turrets everywhere along the train tracks" situations, at least not without power poles to connect them to the rail power network^^
Second, it allows the "Electric Locomotive" to travel on it. More on that below.

Lastly, I'd like to suggest new Locomotives:

Type 1: Fast Locomotive
Just as the normal locomotive, but has a higher top speed at the cost of higher fuel consumption. Useful for long travel without intermediary stops.

Type 2: Electric Locomotive
As hinted above, the Electric Locomotive can only travel on Electric Rail Tracks, thus making it a more late-game option.
It's advantages are that it doesn't require fuel to operate, but uses the electric network instead (negligable, actually) but more importantly, since there is no more need to create heat in order to get going, it's acceleration is faster, thus reaching the max speed long before a regular locomotive. This makes it exceptionally useful for highly congested rail traffic, with lots of stops at stations and stop lights. Should overall give a nice speed boost compared to the regular locomotive, depending on the railroad design. (opposite from Fast Locomotive, really).

That's pretty much all of it. Any thoughts?

Thanks for reading,
Molay

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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by ssilk » Fri May 02, 2014 9:28 am

Nice suggestions, but I don't understand the description to the "split cargo wagon". Do you mean that the front wagon is a different chest than the rear?
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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by Molay » Fri May 02, 2014 9:51 am

Err, yes. The split wagon, although just one wagon (one object) is similar to two small wagons. Basically the front half is one container, while the back half is another, separate container, but just one cargo wagon.
It's sort of the "the cheap man's logistic cargo wagon".

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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by Coolthulhu » Fri May 02, 2014 9:57 am

Tanker was suggested many times already.

Split cargo is basically 2 half-length wagons fused into one. Would be redundant if smart wagons were implemented.

Smart and logistic were suggested. I recall something about smart trains reporting their entire content to train stop (that would act like chest filled with train's content). Logistic ones aren't easy to implement well: for one, you'd want wagons that are requesters in one network, but providers in the other.
Logistic ones are also in conflict with the role of bots: bots are for local transport of few items. They will probably get nerfed a few times, because you still can easily use them to transport all ores and plates.

Instead of great cargo one, you might want to try creating an "extended station" consisting of multiple stations. Train would stop few times, each time exposing further set of wagons to inserters.

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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by Drury » Fri May 02, 2014 10:14 am

I like the idea of split wagon. Sounds neat for simpler operation.

However I don't like your idea of merging electrified railroads with energy network... Things just don't work that way. I know that this game features things like frickin' laser beams, but this is too much. It's not unusual to see electricity poles parallel to electrified railways in real life.

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And did you already forget about this?

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But the idea of electrified railways is still nice, and even the fact that electric locomotives accelerate faster is spot-on.
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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by Molay » Fri May 02, 2014 10:36 am

Instead of great cargo one, you might want to try creating an "extended station" consisting of multiple stations. Train would stop few times, each time exposing further set of wagons to inserters.
I never thought of that. This could work really well for specialized, long stations. I'll have to try this! Thanks for the idea, which I'll promptly steal :) Not to say I wouldn't want some with bigger cargo, but this will surely do for now!
However I don't like your idea of merging electrified railroads with energy network... Things just don't work that way. I know that this game features things like frickin' laser beams, but this is too much. It's not unusual to see electricity poles parallel to electrified railways in real life.
You do have a point here. I suppose it's not too much of a hassle to build the poles nearby, but personally I find it not too far fetched to implement those poles on the same area taken by the rails (considering the setting and all). I like to think that our little guy here, on that alien planet, tries to automate and simplify all his tasks as much as possible. Would it be too far fetched that he combines power network and railroad? :)


Thanks for your inputs!

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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by Trucario » Fri May 02, 2014 10:47 am

What about a Magnetic-Train alike in Japan?

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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by Molay » Fri May 02, 2014 11:26 am

Trucario wrote:What about a Magnetic-Train alike in Japan?
As a last, highest tier train, possibly? It has crazy high acceleration and top speeds if I'm not mistaken. Could possibly be along the lines of the other, very late techs or so. But what materials would it be made out of? I think it would have to be something more than just iron/copper, if it was to be that "good"^^

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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by Trucario » Fri May 02, 2014 11:31 am

Molay wrote:
Trucario wrote:What about a Magnetic-Train alike in Japan?
As a last, highest tier train, possibly? It has crazy high acceleration and top speeds if I'm not mistaken. Could possibly be along the lines of the other, very late techs or so. But what materials would it be made out of? I think it would have to be something more than just iron/copper, if it was to be that "good"^^
What about of an Alloy of Steel and Something?

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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by ssilk » Fri May 02, 2014 11:32 am

Well, these ideas (electrification with and without power transport, other train, other wagons, especially for liquids) are all discussed somewhere else or are already planned in the roadmap. I won't search the links now, I have already posted too much today. ;)

What I wanna say: What astonishes me always is the similarity of the most popular requests.this means for me, that

- they should be fulfilled as requested or
- made completely different, because everybody awaits it like so and it is boring to do that again the same way as in game X... :)
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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by Molay » Fri May 02, 2014 11:44 am

What I wanna say: What astonishes me always is the similarity of the most popular requests.this means for me, that

- they should be fulfilled as requested or
- made completely different, because everybody awaits it like so and it is boring to do that again the same way as in game X... :)
I didn't know there was talk already about these features. To be quite honest, I only discovered the game 5 days ago. Since then I played basically non-stop (oh glorious holidays), quite at the expense of regular sleep. I've just started here on the forums and didn't see anything of the like. It's good to hear it was already suggested, and might even become a part of the game.

Personally, to your dilemma, I'd go with "fulfilled as requested" if people offer suggestions used in "game X". The fact they want something from "game X" here means it was good in the first place, and Factorio being such a total mixup and fusion of genres can surely benefit from a lot from other games^^
are already planned in the roadmap
Where can I find that roadmap? I'd be quite interested to see what is coming up in the future! :)

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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by Drury » Fri May 02, 2014 12:01 pm

Molay wrote:Where can I find that roadmap? I'd be quite interested to see what is coming up in the future! :)
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... ?f=3&t=678
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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by Molay » Fri May 02, 2014 12:07 pm

Drury wrote:
Molay wrote:Where can I find that roadmap? I'd be quite interested to see what is coming up in the future! :)
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... ?f=3&t=678
Thanks!
So Oil Wagons are indeed already planned. I hope they are not for crude oil only, but also allow for other liquids.

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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by Zourin » Fri May 02, 2014 2:55 pm

Coolthulhu wrote: Logistic ones are also in conflict with the role of bots: bots are for local transport of few items. They will probably get nerfed a few times, because you still can easily use them to transport all ores and plates.
Bots are wholly inferior to the throughput capabilities of belts, not to mention the additional power drain. Bulk items such as raw goods (coal, iron ore/plates, copper ore/bars) are still best handled by belts, and short factory-to-factory intermediary distances are also best handled by belts (such as red/green pack assemblies). Inserters don't have to stop to recharge.

However, I have to disagree with the logistic train wagons. a highly populated bot network would, in theory, be able to empty a train wagon into adjacent storage/requestor faster (and in less space) than a standard smart-inserter unloading configuration. It would also be one heck of a power spike when they all came home to recharge. However, they are not 'smart'. A good unloading dock uses smart inserters for unloading to avoid oversupplying the factory station with excess unneeded goods.

A 'smart' wagon only needs to communicate with the train car (and proxy information to the train stop so it can 'wait until x goods are onboard'), and any adjacent smart inserters so that specific quantities of different goods. Being able to load a single wagon with a 100 repair kits, walls, solid fuel, and logistic bots would enable automated maintenance for outposts without worrying that the wagon will be loaded up with 15 stacks of repair kits, no walls, no fuel, and no bots.

The only nerf I would ever suggest would be capping the number of deployable logistic drones based on the number of control stations in the network. Bots are great for moving lower-volume intermediaries, such as Steel, Plastics, and Circuits so that spaghetti-belt-brainsplosion's don't happen, and burst dispensing of items such as replenishing personal logistic levels.

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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by MF- » Fri May 02, 2014 8:08 pm

Molay wrote: Type 1: Fast Locomotive
Just as the normal locomotive, but has a higher top speed at the cost of higher fuel consumption. Useful for long travel without intermediary stops.
What about a locomotive with a slot for the speed module? :P

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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by ssilk » Fri May 02, 2014 10:55 pm

Molay wrote:I didn't know there was talk already about these features. To be quite honest, I only discovered the game 5 days ago. Since then I played basically non-stop (oh glorious holidays), quite at the expense of regular sleep. I've just started here on the forums and didn't see anything of the like. It's good to hear it was already suggested, and might even become a part of the game.
I won't await to read that all, if you mean that... we have here over 700 threads in the suggestion forum. Useless to look into that. But you can try a simple search, or just ask!

This sounds heartless, but as moderator I see my job in bringing the discussion more into the direction of new stuff and not into old or already existing suggestions.
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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by Drury » Sat May 03, 2014 11:43 am

MF- wrote:
Molay wrote: Type 1: Fast Locomotive
Just as the normal locomotive, but has a higher top speed at the cost of higher fuel consumption. Useful for long travel without intermediary stops.
What about a locomotive with a slot for the speed module? :P
Problem is that productivity and efficiency modules wouldn't be too useful.

Simply having speed module in crafting recipe would be enough.
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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by ssilk » Sat May 03, 2014 12:10 pm

Productivity: Train uses less fuel. (OT: The train uses currently too less fuel in my opinion)
Efficiency: The train can load more.
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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by Drury » Sat May 03, 2014 12:16 pm

But the locomotive has no cargo capacity.

/I agree about fuel consumption
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Re: Additions to the train system.

Post by khh » Sat May 03, 2014 2:08 pm

I really like the idea of a tanker wagon, the electric rail (with or without power transport) and the two new locomotive types. I think it would substantially improve the feel of the railway networks.

Also, where could I find that roadmap mentioned?

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