Barrel logistics

[Sir Nick]

While shuttling around oil barrels it is always a hassle to have just enough barrels so as a cargo wagon stays half-empty after loading empty barrels at processing. However, currently we have no way to read inventories. I see three possible solutions:

• Make cargo wagons logistics-accessible. Helps at lategame, not so much at mid, probably raises some issues with code.
• Make cargo wagons linkable to circuit network. Would be ideal but for the fact that they move. Maybe have a circuit-network connectable rail?
• Let smart inserters read contents of the target/source inventory. Or introduce a new inserter type, though I for once do not see the need.
• Get us the railway barrels! Solves everything with just them. Period.

[syneris]

I'm not against your suggestion, but you don't have to worry about reserving space for barrels if you use separate cargo containers on a single train.

This works okay for barrels right now because they have tiny stack sizes and you generally want to load and unload as many as you can, like ore and metals. One product type per cargo is a not effective for transporting items with large stacks but low demand.

It would be nice if smart inserters could use logic with the contents of a train at the stop. Wire the train stop or have some sort of smart railing?

[immibis]

I still haven't played 0.9.1 (because it still looks like a lot will be changed) but why do you need to half-fill the cargo wagon?

Why not fill it entirely, except for one slot? Then you can get almost double the capacity, with the same effect.

Why is it hard to get exactly the right amount of barrels? Can't you just drive your train away from the unloading station, fill the cargo wagon with the right amount of barrels, then drive it back? Assuming your system is a closed loop, barrels won't be created or destroyed, so you'll always have the right number.

[Sir Nick]

I still haven't played 0.9.1 (because it still looks like a lot will be changed) but why do you need to half-fill the cargo wagon?

Why not fill it entirely, except for one slot? Then you can get almost double the capacity, with the same effect.

Why is it hard to get exactly the right amount of barrels? Can't you just drive your train away from the unloading station, fill the cargo wagon with the right amount of barrels, then drive it back? Assuming your system is a closed loop, barrels won't be created or destroyed, so you'll always have the right number.

Ok, let me get this clear, so that the problem becomes apparent. I have a central train station, where all my trains unload the raw materials. I have two outposts with a number of oil derricks each. The number of outposts is likely to grow. When I had just a single outpost, things were easy: I had a little less barrels than a wagonful, so I always knew I had enough room. That amount of barrels was enough to transport all the crude oil from the outpost at about the rate the derricks were pulling it up. However, when I add a second outpost, things change. Now I have to use MORE than a wagonload of barrels, so I run into situations when a train to outpost #1 is full of empty barrels and thus cannot accept full ones, and the train to outpost #2 is devoid of empty barrels. I solved this by adding some wiring at the outposts and reducing the number of barrels, but as i go around aquiring more outposts as the old ones run low on oil, I am starting to wonder...

So. Answering the question, I have more than one train (the reason being, the outposts are almost opposite each other with regards to the main base).

I'm not against your suggestion, but you don't have to worry about reserving space for barrels if you use separate cargo containers on a single train.

This works okay for barrels right now because they have tiny stack sizes and you generally want to load and unload as many as you can, like ore and metals. One product type per cargo is a not effective for transporting items with large stacks but low demand.

It would be nice if smart inserters could use logic with the contents of a train at the stop. Wire the train stop or have some sort of smart railing?

Yes, it would be nice... but at the same time, it is wasteful AND inelegant at the same time. I could, but where is the finesse?

To be perfectly honest, trains now seem like the dumbest part of all the networks with regards to inventory management. I believe they could use a bit more polish...

[Sedado77]

I still haven't played 0.9.1 (because it still looks like a lot will be changed) but why do you need to half-fill the cargo wagon?

Why not fill it entirely, except for one slot? Then you can get almost double the capacity, with the same effect.

Why is it hard to get exactly the right amount of barrels? Can't you just drive your train away from the unloading station, fill the cargo wagon with the right amount of barrels, then drive it back? Assuming your system is a closed loop, barrels won't be created or destroyed, so you'll always have the right number.

Ok, let me get this clear, so that the problem becomes apparent. I have a central train station, where all my trains unload the raw materials. I have two outposts with a number of oil derricks each. The number of outposts is likely to grow. When I had just a single outpost, things were easy: I had a little less barrels than a wagonful, so I always knew I had enough room. That amount of barrels was enough to transport all the crude oil from the outpost at about the rate the derricks were pulling it up. However, when I add a second outpost, things change. Now I have to use MORE than a wagonload of barrels, so I run into situations when a train to outpost #1 is full of empty barrels and thus cannot accept full ones, and the train to outpost #2 is devoid of empty barrels. I solved this by adding some wiring at the outposts and reducing the number of barrels, but as i go around aquiring more outposts as the old ones run low on oil, I am starting to wonder...

So. Answering the question, I have more than one train (the reason being, the outposts are almost opposite each other with regards to the main base).

You can have 2 diferent stations in the same outpost. The 1st one for unloading barrels, and the 2nd one for loading them, so the train goes to Central station, loads empty barrs, then to outpost 1A, unloads 1 wagon of barrels, go to outpost 2A unload another wagon, go to 2B and load one wagon, and then to outpost 1B and load filled barrels...
I think i explained well enough... if not tell me

[syneris]

He's bringing up a specific problem to explain the purpose of needing Trains to work with the circuit network, not just asking for help solving the issue.

What if I want to transport steel, gears, circuits, advanced circuits, plastics, sulfur, batteries, processing units, etc by train? Even if each had its own cargo wagon, they will all fill up to 15 stacks per item. You can't control production without a way to know how much is on a cargo wagon at a train stop.

If inserters had a way of treating cargo wagons as smart chests, you could limit putting items on a train instead of only being able to filter what comes out. You could also divide the load better by only unloading if the train has more than X in cargo (which could also be combined with a second filter checking for less than X that station's stock), this would leave specific amounts of an item on the train for stops further down the line. You would even be able to hook trains up to logic gates, allowing for more advanced logic and more conditions.

[immibis]

I still haven't played 0.9.1 (because it still looks like a lot will be changed) but why do you need to half-fill the cargo wagon?

Why not fill it entirely, except for one slot? Then you can get almost double the capacity, with the same effect.

Why is it hard to get exactly the right amount of barrels? Can't you just drive your train away from the unloading station, fill the cargo wagon with the right amount of barrels, then drive it back? Assuming your system is a closed loop, barrels won't be created or destroyed, so you'll always have the right number.

Ok, let me get this clear, so that the problem becomes apparent. I have a central train station, where all my trains unload the raw materials. I have two outposts with a number of oil derricks each. The number of outposts is likely to grow. When I had just a single outpost, things were easy: I had a little less barrels than a wagonful, so I always knew I had enough room. That amount of barrels was enough to transport all the crude oil from the outpost at about the rate the derricks were pulling it up. However, when I add a second outpost, things change. Now I have to use MORE than a wagonload of barrels, so I run into situations when a train to outpost #1 is full of empty barrels and thus cannot accept full ones, and the train to outpost #2 is devoid of empty barrels. I solved this by adding some wiring at the outposts and reducing the number of barrels, but as i go around aquiring more outposts as the old ones run low on oil, I am starting to wonder...

You could use a separate stop per train, or a single train that goes to both stops (and has more than one wagonload of barrels).

[Sir Nick]

He's bringing up a specific problem to explain the purpose of needing Trains to work with the circuit network, not just asking for help solving the issue.

Exactly! This theme has derailed, mainly because of the extremely large amount of advice given (BTW - thanks, guys!).

I believe what I suggest is clear. Next comes the why I suggest.

This would be a way to deliver presize amounts of goods to remote bases. Imagine a base FAR out in the open, that supplies you with copper/iron/coal/oil. Then imagine a biter raid. Several, in fact. The base's construction bots repair walls, but sooner or later they will run out of construction packs. Why can't I have those shipped in by train? Because I will very quickly have a load of them at the destination and a full wagon. I do understand that there might be ways to remedy that. The point is, Factorio currently sticks to very much common sense. Controlling a wagon's load makes sense, at least as they are portrayed now. I would not have suggeted this if the wagons were hopper-type, because the same common sense tells us that THESE are exactly for dumping all you have at the source into the wagon.

[immibis]

I see cargo wagons are missing the slot limiter thing. If they had that, would it solve the problem with repair packs?

[foursaken]

It would solve that problem, but it wouldn't solve the oil barrel problem. All the limit does is artificially reduce the number of stacks. A smart wagon arrangement would allow you to control the stock of the wagon without limiting its stack number.

[Sir Nick]

I see cargo wagons are missing the slot limiter thing. If they had that, would it solve the problem with repair packs?

It would, but the slot limiter is universal. Thus, that wagon would only be running at 1/15 capacity, which is ... undesirable.

BTW, this brings to mind yet another solution - filtered slots in inventories (not nessesarily limited to wagons). What I personally do not like about this is that it "works like magic" - you "just" tell the chest and it "just" limits inventory slots. Not cool, I say)

[rlerner]

Before changing my railway strategy to separate cars for full and empty, my older solution worked quite well.

I would fill the car to the max with empty containers, and at the loading station, I would have several inserters pulling out, into chests (so it unloads quickly), and several inserters putting in, so it loads quickly as well.

I would have a maximum of 1 filling station, 1 emptying station per train path. You can have a maximum of 384 barrels in one chest, so that seemed to be a safe maximum for the network. A train car can hold a maximum of 120, so that allows you to keep the oil station running while the train is away.

Some tweaking of the station timing will help, as well as considering the distance travelled. You may be able to add more barrels, but I would leave at minimum a 10% of your chest network capacity available for times where the oil emptying station is full, or if you're doing track changes that impacts delivery.