[Suggestion] Train waypoints

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RobertTerwilliger
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[Suggestion] Train waypoints

Post by RobertTerwilliger » Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:48 am

I suggest train waypoints, so we'd be able to form specific routes for trains to make, say, regular route for all trains and express lane for few highly-prioritized trains, which won't wait on junctions with other ones.

I.e. I'd like to see the option to force train to pass through "waypoint" on it's route.

It's can be done quite easily (at least, I think so)) in two ways:

1) by implementing station-type entity which will appear in stations list (probably have some marker on it's name to differ)

2) or easier - make that if train stop time is set to "0" it won't stop at all (currently it stops and sets off instantly, loosing speed, time and fuel).
2a) Or add an option to "skip station", like in Transport Tycoon (which is compared to Factorio quite often in some odd reason)
//however, former (2) seems easier, and also will remove useless zero-time stop, which does nothing at all because train does not being loaded/unloaded at such quasi-stops.

2nd option won't even require any new entities, GUI, just small script editing... I think)
Holding formation further and further,
Millions of lamb stay in embrace of Judas.
They just need some bread and faith in themselves,
BUT
THE TSAR IS GIVEN TO THEM IN EXCHANGE!
Original: 5diez - "Ищу, теряя" (rus, 2013)

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ssilk
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Re: [Suggestion] Train waypoints

Post by ssilk » Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:59 pm

That has been discussed several times.

The current conclusion is, that drive thru stations (this name is from OpenTTD, instead waypoints) is one way to do it. But eventually are signals much better, that adds "track length" to the pathfinder, cause the train doesn't need to be reprogrammed if you built a new track; it finds itself the new way. This is quite different to games like OpenTTD: It's much easier to build a new track, cause you have more space for that.

I think I made a good explanation here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20037

And I admit I think also for me: I have made now a world with over 200 trains. It would be impossible for me to change the paths of 200 trains all the time, if I change my tracks just a bit.
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RobertTerwilliger
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Re: [Suggestion] Train waypoints

Post by RobertTerwilliger » Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:09 am

Well, I used search to find similar topic, but failed - probably used wrong keywords.

Train finding it's way is quite good, until you have dozens of trains - the they sometimes tend to take loooong detours if just single signal is red at the short way, sometimes even trying to fit through stations, causing some jams (luckilly, with chain signals, not deadlocks))
Holding formation further and further,
Millions of lamb stay in embrace of Judas.
They just need some bread and faith in themselves,
BUT
THE TSAR IS GIVEN TO THEM IN EXCHANGE!
Original: 5diez - "Ищу, теряя" (rus, 2013)

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Re: [Suggestion] Train waypoints

Post by RobertTerwilliger » Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:28 am

Also in TTD trains also use signals and find the shortest path, however under certain circumstances you may want to program exact point where trains go by.

Sure, these circumstances are caused by player himself - e.g. my rail network sometimes causes trains to take looong detour around bottleneck just to come to the station that is just next to it on other side - I'm 100% positive train would do the journey faster if it'd just wait for a bit.

Setting any kind of waypoint in bottleneck specifically for that train, or a waypoint at detour for another that blocks bottleneck too often, would perfectly solve the problem, so it's good to have the function - once again, currently zero-time stop is kind of rudimentary action, because it only causes train to loose momentum. If it'd be reprogrammed so zero stop time would cause train to just pass by - it'd be really great to have the feature when you need it.
Holding formation further and further,
Millions of lamb stay in embrace of Judas.
They just need some bread and faith in themselves,
BUT
THE TSAR IS GIVEN TO THEM IN EXCHANGE!
Original: 5diez - "Ищу, теряя" (rus, 2013)

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ssilk
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Re: [Suggestion] Train waypoints

Post by ssilk » Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:36 am

What you describe (trains go around instead of using the shortest way) is in my eyes a feature: I want the trains not to take the shortest path, but the fastest. Simply, because if the shortest path is crowed - cause for example too many trains are there or if you have a deadlock in that area - it's in my eyes a feature, that the current train system tries to go around that.

Well, not yet not very intelligently. :)

But the point is: It doesn't need to be super intelligent. Just better than a beginner player. More is not needed, cause in the end - with my experience (and I really tried out a lot) - I think the current pathfinder is in general better than any player can optimize it by hand. :)

So I think the true story behind this wish is, that you make the train pathfinder so intelligent, that this described issue is not longer valid, or better, that it is so intelligent, that even an advanced player is not able to make a better rounting in general than the game-engine. In other words: That it is not worth to optimize the remaining issues. :)
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ratchetfreak
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Re: [Suggestion] Train waypoints

Post by ratchetfreak » Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:48 am

ssilk wrote:What you describe (trains go around instead of using the shortest way) is in my eyes a feature: I want the trains not to take the shortest path, but the fastest. Simply, because if the shortest path is crowed - cause for example too many trains are there or if you have a deadlock in that area - it's in my eyes a feature, that the current train system tries to go around that.

Well, not yet not very intelligently. :)

But the point is: It doesn't need to be super intelligent. Just better than a beginner player. More is not needed, cause in the end - with my experience (and I really tried out a lot) - I think the current pathfinder is in general better than any player can optimize it by hand. :)

So I think the true story behind this wish is, that you make the train pathfinder so intelligent, that this described issue is not longer valid, or better, that it is so intelligent, that even an advanced player is not able to make a better rounting in general than the game-engine. In other words: That it is not worth to optimize the remaining issues. :)
But you want the experienced players to have some control so they can circumvent the pitfalls of the default system.

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Re: [Suggestion] Train waypoints

Post by ssilk » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:00 pm

Yes, of course.
The question in my eyes is: Is a run-through station the right instrument for that?
I don't say "no", cause I'm not sure.

My reasons against are logically explainable: Especially I don't like, that I need to do a change on the train(s) (setting up a new station in the schedule), and not on the track. This change works only for that train (or maybe - if we have "routes" for all trains on that rout), but not for all and this has in my eyes (and I'm really played some thousands of hours games like OpenTTD), not the best way to play with much trains. It doesn't look deep enough. It is just a provisional fix of a much more interesting problem (and I can also say, that it is VERY interesting to solve that kind of routing problems, but that depends of course on taste).

And you will have many trains. As somewhere mentioned I have a map with 200+ trains and I really LOVE that the trains take sometimes this path and another time that, depending on traffic. In that scale (500-1000 tiles of distance) it works quite well, only in small scales it needs still some tweaking.

So I can say, I'm really, really sure about is, that changing how the pathfinder will find the "shortest" (influence how the pathfinder works) is much more useful, than any other strategy. Because you don't need to change anything in the trains. Because we have here the same game-principle as in Siedler II: You influence the way the trains take by building tracks.

What can be more logical? :)

And if that strategy really doesn't work and someone presents me a situation, which shows, that such a path-thru is more useful, I'm the last who would say "no". ;)
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RobertTerwilliger
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Re: [Suggestion] Train waypoints

Post by RobertTerwilliger » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:42 am

ssilk wrote:I want the trains not to take the shortest path, but the fastest. Simply, because if the shortest path is crowed - cause for example too many trains are there or if you have a deadlock in that area - it's in my eyes a feature, that the current train system tries to go around that.
No deadlock, no even too overcrowding - just 1-2 trains at the junction queue causes another one to take detour - and it's definitely longer in time than to wait 5-10 seconds. THIS is situation I'd like to avoid : )
Holding formation further and further,
Millions of lamb stay in embrace of Judas.
They just need some bread and faith in themselves,
BUT
THE TSAR IS GIVEN TO THEM IN EXCHANGE!
Original: 5diez - "Ищу, теряя" (rus, 2013)

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Re: [Suggestion] Train waypoints

Post by ssilk » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:35 am

RobertTerwilliger wrote:No deadlock, no even too overcrowding - just 1-2 trains at the junction queue causes another one to take detour - and it's definitely longer in time than to wait 5-10 seconds. THIS is situation I'd like to avoid : )
That is a function of the routing and not of the vehicle.

Like google maps suggest you to take a detour, if there is some jam on your way, IF it calculates, that the way around is faster (not shorter).

I don't say this is wrong! Even if Google suggest me to go around, I can decide to drive into the jam, sometimes this is still faster.
But for a fully automated setup it won't in general, if the routing works more or less well. I just say, the way you want to fix this is by fixing the train, not the router, and that is questionable and you should try to fix the routing FIRST. :)
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Re: [Suggestion] Train waypoints

Post by RobertTerwilliger » Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:54 pm

ssilk wrote:you should try to fix the routing FIRST. :)
Indeed, however when I started the network I didn't realize it will become so busy - I don't want to dismantle "historical center" of my factory))
Holding formation further and further,
Millions of lamb stay in embrace of Judas.
They just need some bread and faith in themselves,
BUT
THE TSAR IS GIVEN TO THEM IN EXCHANGE!
Original: 5diez - "Ищу, теряя" (rus, 2013)

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Re: [Suggestion] Train waypoints

Post by ssilk » Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:25 pm

I do that like in real life: I built a new station somewhere outside, where I have plenty of space and name it the same as before, even if the distance between the old and the new is now 500 tiles. And then I destroy the old and have more than enough new space to make much nastier things. :)
But this is just one way to solve this (very special) problem, I didn't mention the other ways. :)
What I want to say: I think it has nothing to do with the routing or waypoints. Or I don't understand it. :)
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Re: [Suggestion] Train waypoints

Post by NitrousWolf » Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:22 am

After extensively playing around with trains in my current playthrough I can't say I have encountered the problem that the OP states however I am all for the pass through station idea as another tool in the trainset toolbox. So the player can set an toggle on the train route for whether it actually stops or not at the station.

(one possible reason for me having no problem with the absence of waypointing is because I have gone maybe a bit overboard with tracks, passing places, roundabouts and bypasses that trains rarely wait that long in my game, I have about 15 trains running)

EDIT: It just occurred to me... by setting all stations on a train's route as pass through stations you could in theory create a high-speed wall of trains for any biters that come to attack.
Please let this happen!

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Re: [Suggestion] Train waypoints

Post by RobertTerwilliger » Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:28 am

NitrousWolf wrote:EDIT: It just occurred to me... by setting all stations on a train's route as pass through stations you could in theory create a high-speed wall of trains for any biters that come to attack.
Please let this happen!
))) Until one train's fuel runs down thus resulting in total collapse. Or train crashes into biter group, slows down and causes following trains to stop on signals. And without signals any tiny issue will cause trains to crash into each other.
Also, you don't need "skip" function to do this - just make 2 stations next to each other - while from A to B it will be 1-2 meters, from B to A train will take detour as long as you want, around a base, non-stop. (this will also solve refueling - just 5 secs is enough)
To compensate speed loss on station (to avoid jams there) you may want to make few parallel station pairs with same names (If station A at way 1 is occupied - train will go to station A at way 2, or way 3, etc.)

If you try - consider biter may attack rails if no "prioritized" buildings like turrets or radars are near their raiding point.
Holding formation further and further,
Millions of lamb stay in embrace of Judas.
They just need some bread and faith in themselves,
BUT
THE TSAR IS GIVEN TO THEM IN EXCHANGE!
Original: 5diez - "Ищу, теряя" (rus, 2013)

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