Endless ore patches

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Endless ore patches

Post by pib »

This has likely been suggested before, but I couldn't find a thread on it.

I have been playing with a mod that give endless ore patches, basically working just like oil patches work. Ultimately I think the game just makes more sense being played like this, and I think it would be a good idea to consider the change for vanilla also.
I have a few reasons I believe this would be a general improvement...

1. I have read a complaint, which for me rings true, that being forced to take down your mining sites is "not fun" and detracts from building. Having to recycling outputs only gets more constant and annoying as your base grows and you are able to eat through ore faster.
2. Oil patches already work this way, so perhaps things are more intuitive to keep the same.
3. Endless resource do not have to mean that you are not incentivized to expand... just like an "empty" oil well is only 10% of a working well, an "empty" deposit only needs to provide a slight trickle of ore for me to want to keep it in place. Power is cheap.
4. In real life, a mine would last many years before being exhausted.

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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by Player 1 »

I'm not a dev, so don't feel discouraged, but I think you're falling into a type of argument out of being spoiled.
Just because something "isn't fun" in itself, it doesn't necessarily mean that it detracts from the overall game. Dying to aliens "isn't fun" either, so should dying be removed, or should we get better at avoiding death?
The way that mines (and oil patches) work in real life, is that they run out of resources when they're mined up. Some mines are big, and other mines are small. Small mines will drain up faster. If you "mine" a single rock of the ground, then the resource will have "drained up" within a few seconds. In real life, no mine is endless.

As for oil, I have absolutely no reason to expand my base for oil. I've never had. I started with normal level of resources, found myself surrounded by 15-20 oil patches, planted pumpjacks on all of them, and even though they struggle on at 0.1 yield, combined they meet my energy requirements. I actually WISH that they would run out, so that I could get the pumpjacks out of the way of assembly lines.
The same would be true for ores: There would be no reason to expand past 20 mines.

There is a problem with this, however, and that is if you set your resources to be too few, and don't play on an endless map.
...but if you play on an endless map, try moving on to trains. They're there because resources run out.

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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by Yinan »

There are several mods for that, as the possibility is already build into the game.

One of them would be "Train outposts", a mod that changes the resource generation at the beginning. You get smaller and fewer patches at the start but in exchange, they're endless (they will have a yield and slow down just like oil patches, bringing them to a crawl in the end, but they will always have ore for you, so no need to remove).

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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by ssilk »

I appreciate that, cause it would create a game-play, which is much more interesting; currently when a mine goes out you need to break down everything. That work should in my opinion more or less be saved.
The game profits from this also, cause it makes the game-play faster (which is for Factorio always good) and - depending of how it is implemented (see below) - also more appealing, cause it saves your already invested work.

I see that like so: The ores are laying on the ground and can be mined like now. When it goes out it behaves like currently. But, if you researched that new technology, you can decide then to do some underground mining. So maybe you have a drill and can create an underground layer like so (maybe with a limited size?). In that layer you see the ores as now and they are normally at the same places as they where on the surface. If you place then a miner into the underground layer it behaves like described in the OP.

One think is important here from my view: you should not need to rebuild the whole mining area from scratch (but you can if you want). My idea is that we see the layer above us as "ghosts" and - maybe with a special tool - we can bring the existing miners, belts, poles, lamps etc. down by using this tool (or just simply by the construction bots when you reveal that area with your drill). So if you make a good setup on the surface you just can bring everything to the lower layer and don't need to rebuilt much.

Another thing is also important: The outcome is then much lower than now - the initial yield is low, maybe only 10% of a normal miner and sinking to 1%, but then on a constant rate. That means you need constant high power usage. The details are developers balancing job.
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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by Player 1 »

Another thing, is that it makes "cleaning up your base" of ore, impossible. ...and that's not fun. I don't want to have jagged rocks everywhere. ...although cementing my base could maybe solve that.

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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by Arch666Angel »

There are several mods out there that let you choose what you want:
-Endless resources mod turns everything into infinite ore patches
-Train outpost mod does something similar and spaces the resources to accommodate train usage
-Bob ores mod has an infinite option (best with RSO)
-Deep Ores mod does something similar to endless resources, except that you need a special drill for them (best with RSO)
-(my own)Angels Ores mod which adds infinite ore patches alongside regular finite ore patches (best with RSO)

I think that is pretty much to choose from when it comes to differ the resource generation.
As with most other mod I think it is a good thing that not everything is in the base game, that makes the game more variable and customisable for your own preferred playstyle

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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by Rockstar04 »

I think something like this is a personal preference and is best left up to users to decide (in the form of mods).

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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by bobingabout »

Arch666Angel wrote:-Bob ores mod has an infinite option (best with RSO)
Just as a point of interest, the latest version of my ores mod, well, the infinite option isn't actually in the ores mod at all anymore, it was moved to the config mod, as part of Migration for a single config file.

Since the option was off by default in my ores mod, and it works with other people's ores too, not just my own, I decided to move it as a whole to the config mod.

Since the config mod is designed to work with any configuration of my mods, you should in theory be able to use the config mod on it's own to turn on things like infinite ores without the rest of my mod suite. (It may still require my Library mod though, Most of my mods require it.)

Would need to double check this though, it's been about 5 months since I last modded anything.
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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by pib »

I currently use train outposts, other than that and blueprint mods I play vanilla. I have used other mods including bobs, but not for quite a while.

While I agree this will be a personal preference and it can be modded (which is more important then the devs picking MY preference!), I don't think that is really a good argument for why it should be one way or the other. I like reading blog posts from game developers... employees of Blizzard in particular have written some things about the points I was getting at which I agree with. The point of a good game is to have fun, and that company in particular is good at taking an existing formula and optimizing away things that are not fun, and their games are better for it.

I think a good option for removing ore would be to be able to place concrete / stone brinks over the deposit if that is what you want. But I don't really consider the fact that I can remove ore by mining it up to be a value adding feature, it's more something that you know will happen, and personally since I know resources can run out at inconvenient times, it becomes a mission to extract resources before building on top of them and making it difficult / impossible to get at those resources.

With train outposts, deposits are also further apart, and I simply look for places to build where I will not cover up resources. We are forced to build around water and no one suggests removing that. But in one place I built some solar panels over a stone deposit because I knew I had solved the stone problem already and it simply didn't matter. I've put over 100 hours into the train outpost map and I feel that although that mod author didn't do endless resources quite correctly, I think the concept is better than what we have. (With that mod, empty mines feel too effective at the default level, perhaps especially because it doesn't matter if a drill covers 1 stone tile or many. It would probably make more sense to use an average of the resource density the drill covers to come up with the rate of output, rather than to find the highest number and use that.

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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by pib »

Wooo, I feel that today's FFF really offers some kind of validation of my report! The solutions they offer are not quite the same, but I like to hear the devs understand the issue the way I see it and are looking to improve the vanilla experience. And in a post I made in the train outpost mod thread, I also said that " it feels more worthwhile to spend more time on defensive abilities and loading / unloading stations" knowing the outposts are not temporary, which was brought up in the FFF.

I wonder if extending the lifetime of patches is good enough, compared with actually having the lifetime be infinite, but I definitely think moving higher value patches further from the starting point works well.

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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by Arch666Angel »

That there is a need/desire for changes or variation to the generation, mining and processing of the ores is not the question I think, cause there are enough mods out there which implement such things. Also I wouldn't be working on such a mod if it would suffice what I have in mind, but they should come up with another mechanic than what there is already available from mods, something that cant be done so easily by modding. Like have another surface layer with deeper ores, that are under the regular patches and you have to discover with some tech or detector.

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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by MeduSalem »

pib wrote:Wooo, I feel that today's FFF really offers some kind of validation of my report! The solutions they offer are not quite the same, but I like to hear the devs understand the issue the way I see it and are looking to improve the vanilla experience. And in a post I made in the train outpost mod thread, I also said that " it feels more worthwhile to spend more time on defensive abilities and loading / unloading stations" knowing the outposts are not temporary, which was brought up in the FFF.

I wonder if extending the lifetime of patches is good enough, compared with actually having the lifetime be infinite, but I definitely think moving higher value patches further from the starting point works well.
Well your suggestion has my support.

If the Ore patches would work like Oil Deposits and their yield decreases it would force you to expand to keep the throughput up. And on the other hand there would be no need to destroy all the hard work one put into setting up an outpost.

That said if this is really going to be a thing then the resource patches would have to be a little bit less common compared to now because of how some of that would be made up by having a steady and low stream of guranteed resources from your "depleted" ore fields.


That said I would combine your idea with the idea of dirty ores brought up in the friday facts (for anyone not knowing what the fuss is about: https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-129 ).

The lower the yield the more dirty ore you will start to get. So that leaves you with the decision of either tearing down the outpost, temporarily suspending it or if you want to invest on the additional infrastructure to deal with the rising amount of dirty ore the miners output.

Of course there would be some research necessary behind which the "Advanced Ore Processing" is initially locked, otherwise you have to stockpile the dirty ore for later, like you have to with various Oil products until you get to research advanced refining and oil cracking.

pib wrote:I like reading blog posts from game developers... employees of Blizzard in particular have written some things about the points I was getting at which I agree with. The point of a good game is to have fun, and that company in particular is good at taking an existing formula and optimizing away things that are not fun, and their games are better for it.
Interestingly I find that Blizzard does one of the worst jobs on balancing what is "fun" for me, especially on Diablo 3 they really earned my hatred. The game felt so unrewarding because of the unnecessary grind that didn't challenge my brain. But that's just off topic now.

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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by Joefesok »

Perhaps ore patches could be indefinite in general, and a new type of mining machine is introduced?

To expand:
The current mining machines could be changed to operate faster/slower per the yield of each tile of ore they are on. I'm not sure if this is in the game yet or not, but that's not my point. My point is that their yield could be calculated as a function of the maximum ore output of each tile, like maybe each tile's "peak ore" divided by 1000 (probably more, honestly. This is not that high a number considering the size of some deposits- I'd go so far as to say 100,000.) Then all these values are added for the amount of ore per second.
However, the existing mining machines can never reach "peak ore". In fact, they don't drain tiles at all. Instead, they operate much slower than a new type of mining machine- the strip mining machine. The strip mining machine will not only drain ore from ore veins, but will very rapidly do so- generating large amounts of ore, large enough that it needs extra slots to operate at peak efficiency. After a time the strip mining machine hits peak ore- probably 10% of the ore output of the mine- and can either no longer function or functions as a very expensive copy of the electric mining drill. After this point the remaining ore can be harvested by electric mines, which would operate slowly due to the calculation of their function.

But why do this at all? Well, players may want a rapid influx of ore for a large project. They might want to close down a smaller mine instead of investing in machinery for it. It's a pretty speculative idea and I'd argue it might not be worth it, but I'd like to hear opinions on it.

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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by orzelek »

Currently RSO + Angelsores mod will give you both finite and infite ore patches.
It's a bit of compromise over the straight infinite ores option. And it lets you keep all the outposts especially when in use with bob's or DyTech where you have better drills - faster mining from infinite node even at minimum.

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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by pib »

Because of the FFF, I think I should clarify where I (the OP) stand in this thread:

Resources should be more spread out if they are made endless, with larger deposits being found further from the starting zone.

I love the dirty ore idea, and would like to see it combined with endless.

My idea for how to do that would be to have tech 1 extract ore, reducing over time to a depleted state (10% like oil?) and then it would change into a dirty ore tile that can only be mined by the dirty ore tech. The dirty ore extraction is endless but slow. You would be able to put the 2nd tech machine on a fresh iron patch as well, and it would work faster than the first mining machining in extracting ore and therefore it would change to a dirty ore tile faster, but the machine would not stop when it gets there.

This is just one idea, I have a lot of confidence in the devs ability to find a good solution. I'm excited about having a more interesting smelting chain.

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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by Gnu89 »

Interesting and relevant thread.

I have ideas about this concept of my own. Basically its a glorified oil patch.

The Idea in short:

In the world there are Rare shafts/holes/ that you can build a hightech mega-structure, similar to the the rocket launch site, on top of. This site will request modules (similar to the satellite) and launch different kind of mining expeditions with them. Each sucessful mining expedition will increase the yield of certain resources depending on shaft type and what expedition was launched.

Advanced components go in - A regular yield of "stuff" comes out

Details and thoughts:

I think this matches the "space platform endgame" stuff fairly well. To meet the need with the Space program you must expand the mines and find more of them. Maybe there are even bad(FUN) stuff that can happen if you dig too greedily and deepily.
I think it is important that these sites are quite rare and coded to always be infrequent. You should also never start close to one. I think it would be cool if a geo-scan sattelite that can be launched would discover it for you and mark it on the map, and then you have to go there and setup shop.

An important concept in factorio is demand of product.In the endgame this does not really exist, unless you create it yourself, i.e I want to remake a factory as space/time/resource efficent as possible etc.
With this or a similar addition the possibility of super factories opens up and you can create a demand worthy of a super factory, like a massive spaceprogram or anythin really.
I think this is compatible with the current play style and tempo of the game. Just need a worthy and interesting demand to pair with it.

Any of you guys have any thoughts or ideas please let me know.

Gnu

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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by ssilk »

Gnu89 wrote:In the world there are Rare shafts/holes/ that you can build a hightech mega-structure, similar to the the rocket launch site, on top of. This site will request modules (similar to the satellite) and launch different kind of mining expeditions with them. Each sucessful mining expedition will increase the yield of certain resources depending on shaft type and what expedition was launched.
I like, that you cannot build such a "tunnel" at every point and that it should have some distance. I can surely say, that will make a big difference in game-play, cause this way you need split your factory into parts.

Also I would say it must be possible to build a train into this "tunnel", which would be quite cool.
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Re: Endless ore patches

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Gnu89 wrote:In the world there are Rare shafts/holes/ that you can build a hightech mega-structure, similar to the the rocket launch site, on top of. This site will request modules (similar to the satellite) and launch different kind of mining expeditions with them. Each sucessful mining expedition will increase the yield of certain resources depending on shaft type and what expedition was launched.

Advanced components go in - A regular yield of "stuff" comes out

Details and thoughts:

I think this matches the "space platform endgame" stuff fairly well. To meet the need with the Space program you must expand the mines and find more of them. Maybe there are even bad(FUN) stuff that can happen if you dig too greedily and deepily. I think it is important that these sites are quite rare and coded to always be infrequent. You should also never start close to one. I think it would be cool if a geo-scan sattelite that can be launched would discover it for you and mark it on the map, and then you have to go there and setup shop.
I really like that somehow... I like the thought of infinite resources pouring out of these "rifts" depending on how many and which "expeditions" you send there. If these "rifts" are rare enough and the costs/benefits reasonable I think that it would be an interesting addition.

Optionally these rifts could be hidden at the beginning underneath Ore/Stone/Coal patches. It would mean that you have to mine the surface first before you get to uncover the rift. And only satelites eventually allow you to see if there is a rift below a resource patch before mining it.

And eventually the rifts could be fleshed out with underground mining/etc as replacement for the automated expedetions at some point in the future, meaning that you switch to an underground layer if you drop down the hole.
ssilk wrote:Also I would say it must be possible to build a train into this "tunnel", which would be quite cool.
If there would be underground layers accessible from these rifts far off in the future it would be definitely a must have!

Otherwise providing train tracks/belts (amongst other items) to the Accesspoint of the Rift might be a requirement to meet to be able to send an expedition.

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Re: Endless ore patches

Post by ssilk »

And like in Diablo with the dungeons: Of course this will reveal new creatures: Worms, beetles, spiders (and of course skeletons and zombies :lol: no...). New types of (underground-)battle. For example you need to defend the entrance, so that no creature can come out, cause if it does it will change into something really dangerous in the sunlight.
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Re: Endless ore patches

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ssilk wrote:For example you need to defend the entrance, so that no creature can come out, cause if it does it will change into something really dangerous in the sunlight.
Daylight werewolves? :lol:

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