My thought on the oil industry

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Balthazar
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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by Balthazar »

Keep in mind every world is different. My worlds have for the most part been around lakes, and stone has always been incredibly sparse, which I imagine is very different from your experiences. I think what we need right now are more options, so that instead of it feeling like we can't progress because we didn't find a huge lake or something, it feels like we had to progress in a slightly different way because of our limitations.
Thats not what i meant at all, i was trying to make a 1.21 gigawatt power plant between two lakes, i had access to water. My point is, you're limited in how much water you can extract by how many pumps you can place. Under optimal conditions you need 6 tiles of flat beach, but it can get much worse when the beach is uneven, and by the time i had about half the plant down my pipes almost covered half the lake, extending much further than just the plant itself. The point was that your extraction speed is still limited, and when you have a continuous demand for a resource, even if you have infinite available you might not be able to extract it fast enough. I'd honestly consider wheeling in water by train as a solution to avoid having pipes running everywhere. I just want to point out that having an infinite amount available does not make the resource worthless or trivial to acquire, although i don't think i worded it very well :oops:
It's not a full release yet... No offense but I'd hate to see the developers restrain themselves feature-wise just so they don't upset your world or development. Part of what you have to accept when playing an alpha is that it's going to change, and you might lose everything.
That's not what he's talking about. You put down a miner then remove it once it's done, so the miner is no longer sitting there. He wants to keep the miners around for nostalgia production when he walks by.
Generally speaking: It would be awesome if all resourcefields would work that way :D
Have to disagree on it, mostly because it would royally mess up the campaign since you can just sit in starting base forever and win anyway. I doubt it would have much impact on sandboxy play tho if they still eat the same amount of power and produce the same pollution.

BurnHard
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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by BurnHard »

quadrapod wrote:Indeed, suggestions are encouraged, that's what the ideas and suggestions forum is for. But you shouldn't justify a suggestion with how much it upsets your world.
Well english is not my first language, I think some interpretation of demand/wish/suggestion just gets lost in translation and written form. As I said before, I just wanted to show suggestions and viewpoints, and maybe give some points do discuss, how other players see this situation.

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by slpwnd »

I like the idea of not completely draining the resource at one point but rather slowly decreasing the production (and maybe stopping the decrease and holding the production steady at some low value). Something to keep in mind for the future releases. Though this might inhibit the need for exploring for the new resources a bit.

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by BurnHard »

slpwnd wrote:I like the idea of not completely draining the resource at one point but rather slowly decreasing the production (and maybe stopping the decrease and holding the production steady at some low value). Something to keep in mind for the future releases. Though this might inhibit the need for exploring for the new resources a bit.
Thank you for your reply,

I was thinking of stagnating at maybe a tenth (1/10) of original production with the original power demand and pollution. Not enough to sit on that resource solely forever, but to provide for some few more capsules or laser towers to expand to a new place and/or give players with sufficient electricity/time etc some reason not to deconstruct their old buildings, even if very unefficient compared to new resource fields.

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by hoho »

slpwnd wrote:I like the idea of not completely draining the resource at one point but rather slowly decreasing the production (and maybe stopping the decrease and holding the production steady at some low value). Something to keep in mind for the future releases. Though this might inhibit the need for exploring for the new resources a bit.
Why not have the resources still as finite but have their output be high at start and slow down (to specific minimum speed) as more get extracted.

For example mining speed might be something like 100%-min(90%, (current quantity/start quantity * 100).
A resource with 1000 pieces at start would have half the speed when half of the stuff is gone, when <100 items is left extraction speed will remain at 10% of maximum until it gets depleted.

That would also mean players have time to find new resources and build infrastructure for them when they see their current output isn't quite enough but they'd still have enough to not run completely dry.


Oil should most definitely be a finite resource. Just make it to be so good that it would be a good idea to use it even if it's hard to get :)
E.g just adding plastics would be a great possibility but also some high-end machinery that can only run on liquid fuel. Perhaps make it possible to also make liquid fuel from coal but at energy-negative way (some weird mix of chemicals+coal in a machine or something).

I'd also like to have the possibility to make water finite but I'm almost certain that it would require massive rework of the game engine to support that. I've always loved draining the oceans in MC :D

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by quadrapod »

hoho wrote:
slpwnd wrote:I like the idea of not completely draining the resource at one point but rather slowly decreasing the production (and maybe stopping the decrease and holding the production steady at some low value). Something to keep in mind for the future releases. Though this might inhibit the need for exploring for the new resources a bit.
Why not have the resources still as finite but have their output be high at start and slow down (to specific minimum speed) as more get extracted.

For example mining speed might be something like 100%-min(90%, (current quantity/start quantity * 100).
A resource with 1000 pieces at start would have half the speed when half of the stuff is gone, when <100 items is left extraction speed will remain at 10% of maximum until it gets depleted.

That would also mean players have time to find new resources and build infrastructure for them when they see their current output isn't quite enough but they'd still have enough to not run completely dry.


Oil should most definitely be a finite resource. Just make it to be so good that it would be a good idea to use it even if it's hard to get :)
E.g just adding plastics would be a great possibility but also some high-end machinery that can only run on liquid fuel. Perhaps make it possible to also make liquid fuel from coal but at energy-negative way (some weird mix of chemicals+coal in a machine or something).


I do really like the idea of minerals depleting but never fully... That said it might
I'd also like to have the possibility to make water finite but I'm almost certain that it would require massive rework of the game engine to support that. I've always loved draining the oceans in MC :D

I like the depleting resource idea. I don't think changing water would take as much of a rework as you'd imagine though.
Water lua
All it should really take is giving water a few more graphics for increasing levels of depletion and a reference for each tile that includes a value for the body of water it's a part of. The game places lakes in one go, so when it made a lake it would also make a variable for that lake and give it a value for the amount of water in the lake. As you drew out water the graphics would change to reflect that until it finally went dry. (of course in actual implementation I'm sure something would go horribly awry and the world would melt or something, just because that's what happens when something is theoretically "not all that difficult")

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by Balthazar »

Why not have the resources still as finite but have their output be high at start and slow down (to specific minimum speed) as more get extracted.
This allready happens as the miners at the edge of ore clumps finish first, unless you're not mining an entire clump at a time. I think this is a bad idea, unless maybe it just mines slower the less tiles are under it, how would you make this work in a way where you can't just pick the miner up and put it down again to get it back to max speed?
I'd also like to have the possibility to make water finite but I'm almost certain that it would require massive rework of the game engine to support that. I've always loved draining the oceans in MC :D
You're insane :shock:
Oil should most definitely be a finite resource. Just make it to be so good that it would be a good idea to use it even if it's hard to get :)
Then it wont be used to make power, it might as well just be part of the recipie and it wouldn't practically function as fuel at all, just as a rare material. I really don't see any benefit to finite fuel, let me put this in perspective. My current setup is using 300-500 kW depending on how active it is, if i was to run this on coal the way it currently works it would eat ~50coal PER SECOND.
Finite fuel can't scale correctly because your resource demand (copper, iron, stone) remains fairly consistent throughout the game; ie producing structures faster than you can plop them down is not very helpful, and there's currently no persistent resource sinks in the game, but even if there was the problem is:

Your fuel demand will rapidly outstrip your resource demand due to always increasing logistics and defense costs, and since you acquire both at the same time and roughly the same pace resources would stop having value because you get them faster from collecting fuel faster and can't process them all. .

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by Garm »

I have a question.

Assuming we will have tank carts - how will oil/fuel will be transferred to and from them without water crane-like structure?

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by BurnHard »

That's where I see fuel in barrels be useful for...

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by Garm »

BurnHard wrote:That's where I see fuel in barrels be useful for...


then what is the point of having tank cart? That is my question. If tank cart will carry barrels - how is it any different from cargo wagon?

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by BurnHard »

Garm wrote:then what is the point of having tank cart? That is my question. If tank cart will carry barrels - how is it any different from cargo wagon?
No, I thought there will be both. I misunderstood you in the first place.

Tank cart for transporting large quantities, yes with some sort of hose or special inserter to insert into the large vessel. And then some sort of filling station to insert into barrels where we need smaller quantities for transporting with logistic robots.

OR for transporting over large distances we have to rely on pipelines if we dont want to barrel up the oil, I don't know whats really better.

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by slpwnd »

Garm wrote:I have a question.

Assuming we will have tank carts - how will oil/fuel will be transferred to and from them without water crane-like structure?
In 0.9 there will be no tank cart (we would need the graphics for that and the graphics and logic for the "fluid inserter"). This will come later.

However there will be a possibility to put the oil into the barrels and then transport it in the normal cargo wagon. This is kind of experimental because we are not 100% sure it would work well together with having the tank carts. Though it might be a good alternative with tradeoffs. So anyway it will be like an experimental feature. This way there will be 2 options how to deliver the oil from the resource field to the factory for processing:

1) With the pipe, nice and simple but less scalable.
2) Package the oil into barrels, transport barrels as regular items and upackage them again.

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by hoho »

slpwnd wrote:However there will be a possibility to put the oil into the barrels and then transport it in the normal cargo wagon. This is kind of experimental because we are not 100% sure it would work well together with having the tank carts. Though it might be a good alternative with tradeoffs.
I guess it would be just good enough if packaging into/outside of barrel would need extra energy+time vs just pumping oil directly in/out of tank cart. That way people could mix a few barrels of oil to be sent to some distant location together with other resources without having to drag a whole cart full of oil there when most of that fuel won't get used anyway.

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by ficolas »

I have two questions moddingwise about this topic.
Will we be able to make any liquid heatable?
And will we be able to specify the temperature of the liquid when assembling?

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

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slpwnd wrote:I like the idea of not completely draining the resource at one point but rather slowly decreasing the production (and maybe stopping the decrease and holding the production steady at some low value). Something to keep in mind for the future releases. Though this might inhibit the need for exploring for the new resources a bit.
I am invested in a few oil companies and I have learned a LOT just from their press releases.

One of their new wells had an "initial production rate" which varied from 60-70 BPD. Within 2 weeks it had stabilized at about 50-55 BPD. It kept that rate for many months then it started to lose pressure and the BPD has went down each week. A few months later it was at 35 BPD and the rate of decrease has slowed down. It will decrease slowly over many years till it's production is so low it is not economically feasible to maintain it.

Some of their "marginal wells" are old wells that are past their prime and produce 3-5 BPD. They produce but not by much.

Having "active wells" and "Marginal wells" might not be a bad idea. It will force you to expand to get more oil but you don't get cut off right away, you can see it coming.

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by kovarex »

Darthlawsuit wrote:
slpwnd wrote:I like the idea of not completely draining the resource at one point but rather slowly decreasing the production (and maybe stopping the decrease and holding the production steady at some low value). Something to keep in mind for the future releases. Though this might inhibit the need for exploring for the new resources a bit.
I am invested in a few oil companies and I have learned a LOT just from their press releases.

One of their new wells had an "initial production rate" which varied from 60-70 BPD. Within 2 weeks it had stabilized at about 50-55 BPD. It kept that rate for many months then it started to lose pressure and the BPD has went down each week. A few months later it was at 35 BPD and the rate of decrease has slowed down. It will decrease slowly over many years till it's production is so low it is not economically feasible to maintain it.

Some of their "marginal wells" are old wells that are past their prime and produce 3-5 BPD. They produce but not by much.

Having "active wells" and "Marginal wells" might not be a bad idea. It will force you to expand to get more oil but you don't get cut off right away, you can see it coming.
I like it!

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by slpwnd »

ficolas wrote:I have two questions moddingwise about this topic.
Will we be able to make any liquid heatable?
And will we be able to specify the temperature of the liquid when assembling?
1) Every liquid has a concept of the temperature. So yes, you can heat anything in boiler.
2) This will be possible in the near future (probably not in 0.9 yet though). We also plan to use a similar concept in the oil refinery later on (the crude-oil coming in would have to be heated to X degrees for the recipe).

The thing is that there has been a lot of changes in some very core code (recipes, fluids vs. items, etc.) so we want to keep the things simple first and add more functionality later.

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by vulstar »

I could see great idea's with liquid pipes some totaly overkill some very good, some plain stuppid.

- Pressure and Valves.

Pressure in %, just like with water temprature, the higher the pressure the more oil goes into the needing machines the faster they can operate.
You would need some machine to give this pressure like big pumps maby even flow directions on the pipes?
Also there could be valves added that can be configured to open or close depending on the pressure on the pipes to have even more control over it.

- Damaged pipes leaking oil, fire breakout.

I could see oil being more dangerous to yourself, and the environment. The aliens could break or damage your pipes and oil would be spilled on the ground creating more pollution. When the oil gets in contact with electric machinery there is a chance of a fire breaking out.
Now combine this with the Valves and pressure. The valves that are leading to the fire could be auto closing because of the pressure loss that is caused by the leaking, stopping the fire from spreading even further. Or the player could manualy remove pipes to stop the fire from spreading.

- New protection kind of type, wall of fire.
Firebreakouts are a disaster, but learning from its highly destructive power its also a great tool to kill those alliens. Imagine a wall of fire comming out of a static placed mouth breatging fire into a single direction with a bursted forward spread of 5 tiles forward doing high damage to evrything in front of it.
(or even depend the flame distance on current pressure? and the valves controlling the max pressure throughput towards it? means adding a max pressure tolerance on the valve to set output to 60% or so(almost like a splitter but for oil lol))


- Tanks running on Oil, Armies, Command Centers

Those alliens Come at us and only grow stronger. I would love to see some AI driven tanks that require oil to run. Ofcourse since its factorio and we want stuff automated, tanks would be controlled by Command Centers.
How i would see this (but doesnt have to be necessairily):
Tank Production Facility -> Produces Tanks -> Tanks are moved on a belt to a Fuel Loader Station -> The belts could be like normal belts but the tank taking the full size of the belt. The belt would move the tank into the Command Center. The CC(Command Center) would register the tank to itself starting its AI and send orders to it wich can be configured in this CC(orders like Patrol, Defend inside defined max Range, Attack nearest Allien Camps that are in range, or move to another CC and let tank register with that CC).
The Command Center would function as an entrance exit for tanks to get on the belts so when a tank is low on fuell it would return to the CC and get on the belt to be refilled, the player can ofc manualy refill a tank, drive the tank himself, or maby even let flying robots refill it? To make it even more fun, tanks also require ammunition.

Let me put some more details for the Command Center::

One command center can control a limited ammount of tanks, and upgrade modules could increase its range of operation, the ammount of tanks it can control, and lowering the cost of operation. The Command Center functions as a hub for tanks to enter and exit the conveyor belts, where they can be moved to a refuel station, get repaired in a repair station, get its ammo refilled, get stored in a Tank Garage for later use, and get from the Production Facility to the CC. Also the Command Center could require purple chips to active the AI for each tank that comes out fo the Command Center. And since its using wireless conection with the tanks Radars would be required to communicate.


Because of all these extra possible features, the alliens could also be made even stronger during the later stages of the game.


~Oh crap i just made a wall of text and some very wild ideas.

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by BurnHard »

Pressure on liquids is different than pressure on gases. Liquids are practically not compressable: Thus even if you give incredible high pressure to an liquid an a pipe, it can drop to zero with practically delivering no mass if you open the pipe on one end. The pressure is only needed to overcome the flow resistance in the pipe and gets lower over distance (without losing oil matter), dont think we want to simulate that,

If you want to simulate how much oil a machine uses, I would just lower the "flow" of the pipe. Eg pumps can supply 10 units per second per tile into the pipe, machine uses 2 units, flow in the pipe after the machine is just 8 units per second per tile. Thus I think the exact simulation of pressure in the pipes is not nessecary, the value "(max) flow" should be sufficient.

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Re: My thought on the oil industry

Post by vulstar »

BurnHard wrote:Pressure on liquids is different than pressure on gases,,,
Ah yeah Flow is the word for it indeed, instead of pressure haha :P


*And some other idea by the way...

-When you pump oil out of the sea, it could be like mixed with water, and you would have to filter the water out with some sort of splitting machine that gives water on 1 side and oil on the other.

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