An idea to significantly extend the endgame

[axefrog]

TL;DR: Remove most technologies from the research screen. Introduce an galactic market screen offering contracts to fulfill, goods that can be purchased for exorbitant fees when necessary, and technology research papers to add to the research screen. To progress, you must fulfill contracts and spend the money on adding technologies to the research screen (and obviously then researching them).

Occasionally people suggest contract fulfillment as a way to improve the endgame. I've got slightly more all-encompassing version of that idea that would probably have minimal impact on the actual core game implementation. I propose the following changes/additions:

1. Implement a galactic market.

The market would provide two things: (1) a way for players to agree to fulfill orders by contract. The orders would require a certain quantity of goods and offer a sum of currency in return. (2) a place where players can, in dire circumstances, purchase goods for exorbitant fees. This would be useful when trapped without access to sufficient quantities of resources to expand, and would be more applicable in the early-to-mid-game period when there are reduced numbers of resources as compared to the extent of alien infestation. The prices of goods would be proportional to the time, effort and materials required to produce them, but would probably also fluctuate depending on market pressures.

2. Require that technologies be purchased (on the market) before they can be researched.

In effect you're buying the academic research papers and blueprints explaining the technology so that you even know where to begin. This would simply mean removing most researchable technologies from the tree initially and populating it as the player purchases the research papers from the market. Purchasing research papers would require fulfillment of contracts in order to earn money.

From the very start of the game, the player will (a) have 3-5 basic technologies already available in to research (i.e. they don't have to buy them from the market), and (b) have access to simple contracts for basic goods and primary resources.

As a supplemental thought, the contract system could be enhanced with periodic scenarios involving space pirates, war, fugitives, the black market, intergalactic policing, and so forth. Fulfilling the wrong contracts could have negative side effects. Failing to complete a contract for certain factions might result in partial base destruction from orbit, or perhaps a special transmission that incites a temporary period of intense alien attacks. Achieving positive relationships with certain factions might open up other options, such as being able to order an (expensive) airstrike occasionally, to take out part of that alien nest that is causing trouble.

If I were going to tune the game to make it work with these ideas, I'd also reduce the effectiveness of laser towers or make some types of aliens resistant to laser attacks. I'd also add a couple more levels of alien mutation beyond the behemoths that already exist.

[Koub]

The whole idea of the game is that you are alone on a planet with no access to anything except a small amount of iron, and a mining drill. The very purpose of it is to launch a rocket with a satellite. I feel what you describe would begin to have a meaning only after that.
Even then, having to pay to be able to research something seems a little meh for me : it feels too much like an artificial mechanism devs would have put there just to force you doing something.

[ske]

Having communication with the outside world makes sense. But the market is a problem.

Rocket launches are expensive (because they are). Transporting large quantities of goods via rockets is not feasible. Maybe rare resources like diamonds would be possible but you have to have rockets beforehand as Koub noted.

This leaves information to be transported. Getting research/technology via communication works but this wouldn't be much different from how research labs work now.

Still, the research aspect does not really solve the problem of getting rid of large amounts of resouces in any other way than it is currently implemented.

Instead of trading with the outside world, trading with the aliens would be a possibility. They don't have space travel. They have "alien artefacts" - whatever that is, it is somehow needed in research. That aspect could be revamped.

[Koub]

Yes : having the choice between anihilating their nests or trading with the biters to get alien artifacts is something I'd like to see in the game. Well at least I'd like to think of the idea within the community to see if we can arrive to some sort of nice concept.

[axefrog]

The whole idea of the game is that you are alone on a planet with no access to anything except a small amount of iron, and a mining drill. The very purpose of it is to launch a rocket with a satellite. I feel what you describe would begin to have a meaning only after that.
Even then, having to pay to be able to research something seems a little meh for me : it feels too much like an artificial mechanism devs would have put there just to force you doing something.

The developers themselves aren't even settled on what the whole idea of the game is. You need to think outside the existing stopgap-of-a-box. Sure, the basic, rough premise has been that you start the game with no access to anything, etc., but nothing of what I've suggested contradicts any of that. The "why" of your being there, right now, is about as deep as a snippet of text at the start of the game. The rocket at the end of the game exists, sure, but its launch could mean anything really. Think about it like this. You're on an unclaimed, undeveloped planet. You start with almost nothing just like a global business tycoon might start with only a Lemonade stand. Even the crash landing story works fine. Just because you've crashed, it doesn't mean anyone's going to rescue you, and who's to say you want to be rescued? Maybe this planet was in fact your destination, but you crash landed, making it somewhat more difficult to leave- not that you want to, given that you'd be leaving your hard work untended and unprotected. I disagree with your assertion that paying for information that you need in order to bootstrap your research feels artificial. It's certainly a lot less artificial than the current system where somehow our protagonist has enough baseline knowledge to research and construct every kind of advanced technology in existence and to, for example, build huge numbers of fully-functional steam engines and store them... in his pocket. Purchasing advanced scientific information in order to have your research labs develop it into production-ready technology seems perfectly plausible and logical to me. Besides, in a capitalist galaxy, nobody's just giving this information away for free anyway.

Having communication with the outside world makes sense. But the market is a problem.

Rocket launches are expensive (because they are). Transporting large quantities of goods via rockets is not feasible. Maybe rare resources like diamonds would be possible but you have to have rockets beforehand as Koub noted.

This leaves information to be transported. Getting research/technology via communication works but this wouldn't be much different from how research labs work now.

Still, the research aspect does not really solve the problem of getting rid of large amounts of resouces in any other way than it is currently implemented.

Instead of trading with the outside world, trading with the aliens would be a possibility. They don't have space travel. They have "alien artefacts" - whatever that is, it is somehow needed in research. That aspect could be revamped.

You're conflating rocket launches with the market unnecessarily. If you fulfill a contract, you'd use some kind of short-range teleporter to deliver the goods, or perhaps build a collection point so that contractee can collect their order (again probably just by beaming it up).

The research aspect definitely solves the resource sink problem because it has a direct relationship with contracting. To get more technology, you purchase the information you need to bootstrap your research. To purchase it (yes, it would be transmitted electronically), you need money. To earn money, you must fulfill contracts for goods- the very reason you came here to begin with- to mine, harvest, construct and automate. Sure, the aliens are a problem for a budding entrepreneur (hence why nobody else has come here yet) but you're here now and your ship's broken anyway, so you may as well make the most of it.

Re: alien artifacts, sure, though I have no particular opinion about that idea.

[ssilk]

The developers themselves aren't even settled on what the whole idea of the game is.

That is an assertion that you cannot prove to be true.

Well I have more reasons against this idea:

1: What I know is, that they have a story (I read a concept of that) and an idea of how the character comes to the planet.

2: And even if I'm wrong: It would destroy the whole feeling of loneliness in the game, which is currently there and creates a very interesting kind of atmosphere to the game. Something which is very unique. And - also an important aspect - it would change the game into something, which is already known well. I cannot count the games with a "market". But how did the items come into that market? From where do they come, where will they go to? Strange physics. Not matching into Factorio. There are other games, which fulfill this need for a "market". In my opinion Factorio will not.

3: We had that several times before. We need a market. Well, why not? But not in the vanilla. There are mods around markets, and there will be much more mods (the market is already a modable entity in the game), so in fact we already have a market.

4: In fact it is so, that the market as implemented will not come into the vanilla game - just simply because of the fact, that it is so long (nearly 3 years) in the game as a possibility.
I think this is the strongest argument.

5: This is somehow controversial and off-topic, but I thought a while before writing that: The time for games with "markets" are over. The mankind cannot survive this century, thinking only how to fulfill the needs of the market. The right way is to think in reverse: How could the market help us to live as mankind! That is a kind of "new thinking", which I see everywhere growing. So it's some kind of "personal attitude", that I won't like to support games that claims more or less serious, that the mankind in thousands or more years can do everything as now. (*)


So I didn't say "never" or so, but I'm really sure, that it will not come into the game, as it currently is. Maybe later, when you can built a spaceship. Then it also makes sense, cause you need to travel to the market.


(*) and before someone thinks wrong: that is far, far away of propagating socialistic systems...

[ske]

You're conflating rocket launches with the market unnecessarily. If you fulfill a contract, you'd use some kind of short-range teleporter to deliver the goods, or perhaps build a collection point so that contractee can collect their order (again probably just by beaming it up).

I did not think of teleporters. To me, they are much more advanced compared to a rocket. Although it makes some sense, that teleporting raw material or goods is possible but teleporting biological life is not. I could imagine teleporting diamonds or rare metals which are mined from tons and tons of rock with machines which consume a great lot of expensive tools doing so.

But then again. When there is trade possible with somebody close to the planet why don't they just come and pick us up?

[axefrog]

But then again. When there is trade possible with somebody close to the planet why don't they just come and pick us up?

I covered this in a big paragraph above! y u just post and no read?

5: This is somehow controversial and off-topic, but I thought a while before writing that: The time for games with "markets" are over. The mankind cannot survive this century, thinking only how to fulfill the needs of the market. The right way is to think in reverse: How could the market help us to live as mankind! That is a kind of "new thinking", which I see everywhere growing. So it's some kind of "personal attitude", that I won't like to support games that claims more or less serious, that the mankind in thousands or more years can do everything as now. (*)

Oooook. I'm talking about Factorio here. What you're talking about is general philosphical approaches to society and design. Opinions about that kind of thing are fine, but not relevant to this discussion. Regarding your other points; (1) It would be nice if they'd share something with us. the lack of satisfying reasons to keep playing in late game is a bummer. (2) "The whole feeling of loneliness"? This isn't a game about loneliness. It's a game about optimization, problem solving and automation. I respect that you like the current ambient feeling of the game, but the fact that you like feeling a certain way is not relevant to a discussion about additional mechanics. (3) I'm not even sure what you're talking about. Granted, of course these sorts of things could be added as mods, but saying "we need a market but not in vanilla" and then applying "because it could be a mod" is no reason at all. It's just an unsupported opinion. (4) You're arguing that an idea is not worthwhile because the developers have other priorities? The developers may have other priorities, but that's not argument against the validity of the idea itself.

[ske]

But then again. When there is trade possible with somebody close to the planet why don't they just come and pick us up?

I covered this in a big paragraph above! y u just post and no read?

Now that you mention it

So basically the premis is, that nobody gives a f*** about that guy who crashed on that planet. Sounds reasonable. You, the player, have nowhere to go. You have to fight your way out and pay for everything for yourself.

The player is not stranded as in cruise-ship-passenger-stranded but as in somali-pirate-stranded or as in indian-garbage-fisher-stranded. There could be an intergalactic superhighway right next to that planetary system and just nobody gives a rats ass about who sits on that pile of dirt waving SOS with his flag.

[axefrog]

Now that you mention it

So basically the premis is, that nobody gives a f*** about that guy who crashed on that planet. Sounds reasonable. You, the player, have nowhere to go. You have to fight your way out and pay for everything for yourself.

The player is not stranded as in cruise-ship-passenger-stranded but as in somali-pirate-stranded or as in indian-garbage-fisher-stranded. There could be an intergalactic superhighway right next to that planetary system and just nobody gives a rats ass about who sits on that pile of dirt waving SOS with his flag.

Nope, still missed it (though fair point about spacefaring organisations not caring about what some guy on some planet is doing). Pertinent quote below:

You're on an unclaimed, undeveloped planet. You start with almost nothing just like a global business tycoon might start with only a Lemonade stand. Even the crash landing story works fine. Just because you've crashed, it doesn't mean anyone's going to rescue you, and who's to say you want to be rescued? Maybe this planet was in fact your destination, but you crash landed, making it somewhat more difficult to leave- not that you want to, given that you'd be leaving your hard work untended and unprotected.

[ske]

After reading it thrice: Nope, I still don't get it.

Everything in the game right now is geared toward building the rocket to leave. Nothing is sustainable. The whole game would have to change for the player to stay on that planet. That idea is wholly different from a market used to trade stuff for tech.

[axefrog]

After reading it thrice: Nope, I still don't get it.

Everything in the game right now is geared toward building the rocket to leave. Nothing is sustainable. The whole game would have to change for the player to stay on that planet. That idea is wholly different from a market used to trade stuff for tech.

I'm not sure why you think the whole game would have to change. Sure, the rocket is a big endgame thing, but it's just a thing you build at the end. The entire rest of the game is you constructing factories and harvesting resources to produce goods of various kinds. Like really, 99.9% of the game is you needing to fulfill your own needs for products. Fulfilling someone *else's* need for products doesn't really change the way you play very much, it just provides an extra resource sink. By tying that to technologies, you give the player a reason to even care about that particular resource sink. It becomes something they need to satisfy in order to progress. As a result, once you get to the point of starting to build trains, you now have a massive incentive to start expanding your rail network far and wide to get more resources to satisfy the demand for products. In fact the rocket can even work with this. You leave the planet when you're done, with the idea to take as many resources with you as possible, and that becoming your final score.

[ssilk]

What you're talking about is general philosphical approaches to society and design. Opinions about that kind of thing are fine, but not relevant to this discussion.

Why? Who says that? The target of playing is in itself. That allows me to put in opinions as relevance. (ok, don't take that sentence too serious, it's just a game )

(1) It would be nice if they'd share something with us. the lack of satisfying reasons to keep playing in late game is a bummer.

See this https://www.factorio.com/content (scroll down).

But they won't promise anything:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18764&start=30#p125228

It's a game about optimization, problem solving and automation. I respect that you like the current ambient feeling of the game, but the fact that you like feeling a certain way is not relevant to a discussion about additional mechanics.

Well, I like this feeling and I don't know why it should be destroyed. There is no reason, it works. It's useful for the whole gameplay, cause there could not be some kind of "deux ex machina". The player cannot hope that some "wonder" happens, because the character is lonely.

And why do I like the described other market? ( in https://www.factorio.com/content )
That is some kind of market I would like, cause it doesn't break the current feel. The market doesn't work as connection to the rest of the world, it keeps inside of the limited and lonely world.

(3) I'm not even sure what you're talking about. Granted, of course these sorts of things could be added as mods, but saying "we need a market but not in vanilla" and then applying "because it could be a mod" is no reason at all. It's just an unsupported opinion.

So the whole discussion is pointless, if we don't define, what's meant, then we speak about "Factorio".
For me it's when you press "New game". I hope you define it the same way.

Because if not, this is a bit stupid discussion. Because there is already a "market entitiy": for example in the "supply challenge". That is just a mod - delivered with the vanilla game. That entity can of course be used by other modders (and is).
So a "market" is already in the game. Maybe that is part of some misunderstanding, cause when somebody says "market", then I think to the functionality of that entity...

So - as mentioned - Factorio comes with mods which use the "market" out of the box.

(4) You're arguing that an idea is not worthwhile because the developers have other priorities? The developers may have other priorities, but that's not argument against the validity of the idea itself.

Well, admitted. On the other hand some kind of realism in the suggestions makes sense, cause otherwise we will have a meta-discussion; everybody wants to have a market, but it's clear that it will not come (in this form). I think I would make a bad job as moderator, if I let people discuss weeks and weeks about something, which will surely not be implemented.
Otherwise

[axefrog]

You know, since my last reply, I started using mods. I no longer feel as strongly about this idea, not because I don't think it's worthwhile, but because I didn't realise the extent to which I hadn't even scratched the surface of ways to extend gameplay in a way that promotes expansion use of trains. I'm now using Bob's Mods, RSO, Misanthrope and a few others. The game is alive again! (thanks for engaging in the discussion nonetheless).