Robot automatic upgrading

[factoriouzr]

It would be nice to avoid the manual labour of upgrading your factory to better belts, factories etc to have construction robots automatically upgrade belts and factories to the best one available once you have enough of the new belts etc.

The way this would work:
you have factory for bet belts
you have smart inserter with limit of say 500 belts
when you reach the max of 500 in the logistics system a construction robot will come and take one belt and upgrade a random lower level belt in the factory
once the limit is reached again, repeat

obviously this should be optional so there should be a way to enable and disable this feature

[Koub]

You can already achieve that with what exists ingame I think :
You output your belts to a smart chest limited to 501 yellow belts, and you take with a smart inserter only when the number of yellow belts is 501, and put that in a passive provider from which it can be requested to build a red belt.

[ssilk]

I think he means some kind of autoupgrade for belts, inserters, assemblies, furnaces etc. like with the new concrete logistics mod.

No, I'm not for this, cause
a) There must be a need to automatically upgrade parts of the factory. If you build good, you don't have that need in general, you just build new stuff instead of upgrading old, this is in most cases much easier and cheaper. If you just upgrade belts etc. you will get in 70% of all cases bottlenecks, which weren't there before upgrading. Blind upgrade is stupid upgrade.
b) it adds a kind of automation, that might not be useful. Especially for belts: Such an autoreplacement can slow down your production in unpredictable ways.

A mod like autoupgrade should be enough. A combination of autoupgrade ( https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 92&t=14781 ) and concrete logistics ( https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 97&t=18932 ) would be the right way and then we can see, how this can work fully automated.

[factoriouzr]

I really disagree with your points ssilk.

First of all, you never get bottlenecks upgrading belts, underground belts, splitters, power poles, roboports (the last two from mods). This only makes things better and faster. For example, I build with the end goal in mind of how many furnaces etc I will have per resource in the end (I played the game enough to know how many I need and want). You also don't get bottlenecks because when the belts are upgraded so are the furnaces and factories.

I completely disagree that it's better to build new factories instead of upgrading old ones. Do you really stick with the second assembly machine for the entire game for the ones you've built? I highly doubt it. When you realize you need some items faster you go back and upgrade your factories producing that good. Then you may realize you need faster belts and you probably will upgrade that too or build a second belt etc.

Also once the furnaces are upgraded (eg. with bob's mods) then if you upgrade the belts and the mining drills you get more throughput without having to expand to a new area and take up more room, and have to deal with a second obsolete factory.

Just because this is how you may play, doesn't mean others don't find a lot of value in this.

Also, for you mod suggestion, I already use the upgrade mod, but the base GUI in factorio is really bad and limits what modders can do. It's a great mod, but it has a few limitations and issues. It would be great if this mod's features were built into the base game with a better UI. As an extension of this, my suggestion of this automated upgrading would be a great extension. This game is about automation after all, if robots can fix things and build things and carry things, they should also be able to upgrade things automatically and manually.

This also goes back to the personal roboport debate. A lot of players prefer the personal roboport to sit idle while in a robotics network, while some prefer it the way it is. The personal roboport priority should be configurable in game, as should this feature. Just because you don't want to use this feature doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the game. Just take a look at some youtube videos on factorio, I have heard some comment that they don't even use personal roboports because they take priority over the robo network.

Again I think the option would be awesome to have because it would improve the tedium of the game for me and AUTOMATE things. After all that's the whole progression of the game. First you put down everything manually and put fuel into your furnaces manually, then you automate it with belts, then you automate building with factories, then you automate building factories with robots and blueprints, etc etc. This is just a natural extension.

[ssilk]

I didn't say "No, this is a bad idea". I admit it can be misunderstood. Sorry for that.

I said "It doesn't make sense yet to implement that into vanilla exactly as suggested. I mean this: Yes, upgrading entities like in the autoupgrade mod should go to vanilla. But no: Automatic upgrading of areas without control of the player is something, which needs to be tested before. With a mod."

Further I need to correct some of your statements:

First of all, you never get bottlenecks upgrading belts, underground belts, splitters, power poles, roboports (the last two from mods).

Of course you do: Before and after your upgraded area. You can of course upgrade everything, but ...

This only makes things better and faster. [...]
You also don't get bottlenecks because when the belts are upgraded so are the furnaces and factories.

... the ratios are not matching anymore -> Bottlenecks.

What I want to say: It's not clear or proven, that upgrading anything is always better. Cause you need more raw material for that. For example. In the time you produce upgraded items to automatically replace stuff, I would probably be much faster with a strategy of not updating.

Your suggestion leaves new players in the doubt, that it is always better to update. The truth is, that it is not always the best way. That's what I'm against.

I completely disagree that it's better to build new factories instead of upgrading old ones.

I didn't say that. I said: Keep it as they are and build new ones at other places, cause it is in most cases easier/cheaper.

Do you really stick with the second assembly machine for the entire game for the ones you've built? I highly doubt it.

For the stuff I already built I do in some, no, many cases. Why should I change it, if it is working?

Factorio drags the player very strongly to optimize. You always want to optimize in Factorio. Everything, everytime. But nobody - only the player - forces this. So what I say is basically: Instead of optimizing you should consider also a play-style, that just builds something anywhere else.

In many cases this is not possible, cause - for example - the player has built fantastic complicated stuff, that is not possible to extend. Yes, in that cases it is much better to upgrade. But don't say it's always needed.

When you realize you need some items faster you go back and upgrade your factories producing that good. Then you may realize you need faster belts and you probably will upgrade that too or build a second belt etc.

That is one way to do it. There are others, like building more, not faster. Another is for example to rush to logistic bots. Or build a railway, so that you smelt the stuff on the outpost directly. There are also the big theme of modules. There's a lot of other ways to bring your factory to run faster than just upgrading entities to the next stage.

What I mean is, that a beginner doesn't know that all and it should be kept as his own decision.

Just because this is how you may play, doesn't mean others don't find a lot of value in this.

I don't disagree.
(sorry for subtle irony. )

[factoriouzr]

Hey ssilk, sounds like I misunderstood your comment, I apologize for that.

I don't agree with your reply about bottlenecks still though:

Of course you do: Before and after your upgraded area. You can of course upgrade everything, but ...

Let me explain. when your factories (eg furnaces) are fed by or put their output on level 1 belts, upgrading to level 2 will always result in the same or more throughput. Ie. it's no worse, it's always the same or better because what the previous belts could carry is handled by the new belts and then some. I know there is a "change in speed" between the two belt types but the throughput doesn't decrease. Remember there is also buffer in the factory itself.

Your point about the factories and not matching ratios makes sense and that would be a bottleneck, but a non-issue to me in most cases because the throughput will be the same or better. Ie. if one of the factories is upgraded in a chain and now it sits idle for a bit of time while the resources are inserted isn't a concern to me because i'm producing at least as fast as before or faster (given inserter speed, resources provided and needed etc).

I think our points of view are clear to me now. I care about throughput and not bottlenecks in most situations. Ie. I used to care about ratios but realized it really doesn't matter that much as long as I'm producing at a reasonable rate or fill the resources (belts or logistics network).

What I want to say: It's not clear or proven, that upgrading anything is always better. Cause you need more raw material for that. For example. In the time you produce upgraded items to automatically replace stuff, I would probably be much faster with a strategy of not updating.

Regarding the above, I see you point, sometimes if you consider resource cost it might not be proven that upgrading is better, but only if you consider resource cost as well, which may or may not be a factor for any particular scenario. This is why I suggest that it's a configurable feature. Also it's a game, it's not all about resource costs sometimes I just want to have the fastest everything in a factory because I can/have the resource. This also gives other benefits such as more module slots in factories, furnaces, faster belts feeding more factories without running dry on resources for any factory.

Your suggestion leaves new players in the doubt, that it is always better to update. The truth is, that it is not always the best way. That's what I'm against.

I don't think it leaves any new players in doubt. The entire game is about building and automation and resource management. A new play can easily spend all their resource making 10000 belts at the beginning. The entire game is a learning process and open to interpretation/opinions. The feature can be defaulted to off for new players but should be available to be enabled if desired just like the pollution display default which I always disable so I can actually see the minimap. I would argue this default is not the best for new players. When their minimap turns red and they wonder why they can't see their factory.

Also consider this: By upgrading to the best factory/belt, the player doesn't need to carry around 3 other types of belts, 5 other factories etc as they go and upgrade certain factories manually, it also makes managing the factory easier, you always know that the speed of every factory is constant, every belt constant and the ratio math is easier. I admit these depend on playing style, and hence why I think it should be configurable.

I didn't say that. I said: Keep it as they are and build new ones at other places, cause it is in most cases easier/cheaper.

I'm not sure how this is different than my interpretation. It still sounds like you are saying to build new factories instead of upgrade existing ones. Sorry if I'm not understanding you properly.

For the stuff I already built I do in some, no, many cases. Why should I change it, if it is working?

Factorio drags the player very strongly to optimize. You always want to optimize in Factorio. Everything, everytime. But nobody - only the player - forces this. So what I say is basically: Instead of optimizing you should consider also a play-style, that just builds something anywhere else.

In many cases this is not possible, cause - for example - the player has built fantastic complicated stuff, that is not possible to extend. Yes, in that cases it is much better to upgrade. But don't say it's always needed.

One reason you might want to change it is to get more throughput. Eg. if you manufacture common components like gears or copper wire in a central location and ship it on a bus or use robots, you will likely want to increase the speed of manufacture for those goods as they are needed more later (this game basically has exponential growth of resources as you develop more complex items).

I never said you always need to upgrade. I said I want a feature that upgrades everything you tell it to based on the behaviour I laid out earlier and I also clearly said it should be configurable. Sometimes I might want it on, other times not.

That is one way to do it. There are others, like building more, not faster. Another is for example to rush to logistic bots. Or build a railway, so that you smelt the stuff on the outpost directly. There are also the big theme of modules. There's a lot of other ways to bring your factory to run faster than just upgrading entities to the next stage.

What I mean is, that a beginner doesn't know that all and it should be kept as his own decision.

I agree, and I never said that upgrading is the only way. I also said it should be configurable

In any case I personally would really like this feature but the current upgrade mod being integrated into the game is much more important because I can just drag areas around my factory selectively and get it upgraded removing much of the work.

Please keep in mind that this feature would be useful to some and not to others based on their playing style, scenario, type of playthrough they are doing and (as I mentioned many times) should be configurable. I also think that it should be fairly easy to implement because almost all of the key/hard components are already there. These are in place upgrades for most buildings/belts etc. construction robots building and replacing entities (stock game and also upgrade mod), logistics network which tracks totals for each items and max limit on each item though highest smart inserter limit. All that is left is to pick a random entity (or the one that was first built) it really doesn't matter and upgrade it when the limit is reached.

I really feel this would add value to the game for hopefully very little development time. Just think how nice it would be if you just want to upgrade all your walls, gates or turrets in your entire factory for example (some require mods to add improved walls etc) and you just tell your robots what to upgrade and you don't have to worry about it. Think how nice it would be for this to happen without draining your entire surplus of walls and turrets because it only does it one at a time when you have reached the limit you requested while you are busy expanding the factory, etc.

[ssilk]

O.K. Seems like it was really some kind of misunderstanding.

So I repeat what I wrote above about first implementation as a mod:

A combination of autoupgrade ( https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 92&t=14781 ) and concrete logistics ( https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 97&t=18932 ) would be the right way and then we can see, how this can work fully automated.

It should be an easy task to take the interface from the autoupgrade and the search/place algorithm of the concrete logistics and see, what happens, how much that is used and what kind of problems appear. (autoupgrade for example has some problems).

[bobucles]

I'm pretty sure there's an upgrade planner mod that does exactly this. First you set up which buildings get upgraded and what they get upgraded to, then you deploy the yellow zone and let bots go at it.

[ssilk]

I'm pretty sure there's an upgrade planner mod that does exactly this. First you set up which buildings get upgraded and what they get upgraded to, then you deploy the yellow zone and let bots go at it.

Why did I post the link to the upgrade planner twice in this thread?

[factoriouzr]

I agree, it would be a great starting point to integrate the autoupgrade mod into the base game then build upon it later. Even if more modding apis are made available so the modders can take it the rest of the way temporarily.