Multipurpose modular platform wagons

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hitzu
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Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by hitzu » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:47 am

TL;DR: this would give trains new functions like the ability to defence and would improve the process of building stations as well as make them better.

I have two ideas that go hand in hand how to improve trains.

First add flat wagon-platform that have 12 (maybe 16) special slots like we have in our modular armor. It would be possible to place there (manually and automatically) some entities like turrets, accumulators, special containers and barrels that can be pre-filled with stuff, cars and tanks, perhaps roboports and assemblers. These entities should apeear on the wagons in the world (I mean not only in the UI) and should work as usual even while moving, especially turrets. Vehicles should not loose their ammo, fuel and cargo while placed on the wagon. Of course some of the entities should be upgraded to have the ability to rotate 360 degrees.

As for containers I want to explain the benefit over regular wagons and this would include the second idea - station-platforms. Why we need them? It is because of an internal issue with lenght of a train. For example we could align trains horizontally with the world grid, but vertically thy would be sqrt(2) shorter (irrathional number) anyway. And I think we need some uniformity along the gameplay: rows of assemblers/furnaces/anything work equally if placed vertically and horizontally, anything except trains. That is awkward, newby unfriendly and is bothering to all the players based on how frequently this discussion appears on forums and reddit. Since we cannot fix this by changing wagons themselves and obviously we don't want to change the world grid, then we can add special entity that would work as an intermediate between a fickle train lenght and the rigid world grid.

This station-platform should connect to a train stop and against another platform on the other side of the tracks, have the exact lenght of a wagon depending of the orientation (perhaps even diagonally that is a matter of discussion) and it should have the ability to load and unload wagons using mentioned containers and barrels. They are regular containers for regular items and fluids, except they are movable on belts. Baically they are cars without engine. Don't confuse with oil barrels and fluid barrels and boxes from mods. I propose real container entities that take real space, more precisely 2x2 squares, both world squares and sqares in the wagon-platform UI. They can be filled on belts and then put on station-platforms to wait a train and when the train arrives they should be pushed onto it in few seconds. This would allow very fast loading and unloading of the trains without eliminating the necessity of pre-loading and post-unloading containers themselves. Also these stations could be very compact since in my mind platforms should be 2 squares in width.

I will make some images later to illustrate this idea.

Related threads:
Bridge cranes https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =67&t=4529
Modular wagons https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 436#p74436

Excuse me for my clumsy English.

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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by ssilk » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:02 pm

hitzu wrote: I will make some images later to illustrate this idea.
Sounds very promising. :)
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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by TuckJohn » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:20 pm

When I saw the title of this thread, it gave me an idea that would add an interesting gameplay mechanic to trains, although it might be hard to impliment.
Basicly, have a "flatbed" train car in which that you can build things on, such as inserters, turrets, chests, etc.Image
it would have to be only two wide becasue of how big a track is, but it would be neat to have that much control over trains. and what they carry. Perhaps that you have to turret car to the back of every train in your network.
[excuse my idea ramble here]
With this feature another machine can be added to be placed at the front of a train car- a rail layer! I would be an interesting step twords self-replicating factories. or perhaps you could allow things to be built on two flatbeds of parrallel train lines, allowing(potentialy) to set up rail production on the train laying the rails! the only problem though would be how turns would be done with the parrall lines.




EDIT: I realise that this is an entire idea worthy of other thread; I will move it if a mod thinks I should.
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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by orzelek » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:59 pm

I support above post :D
Would be really cool to have wagons tat can be built upon.

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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by bobingabout » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:28 pm

I TLDRd.

I think every type of vehicle entity should have the abillity to have a modular grid, similar to that of power armor.

Possibly a different type of grid, meaning it requires different modules.


Getting a bit off topic here, but I also think all vehicles (this means also locomotives and wagons) should be able to have weapons. Both "Automated" meaning they work even without the player, and "Manual" like the tank and car currently have. Though the Automated weapon could just be something you put in the modular grid.
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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by TuckJohn » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:32 pm

bobingabout wrote:I TLDRd.

I think every type of vehicle entity should have the abillity to have a modular grid, similar to that of power armor.

Possibly a different type of grid, meaning it requires different modules.


Getting a bit off topic here, but I also think all vehicles (this means also locomotives and wagons) should be able to have weapons. Both "Automated" meaning they work even without the player, and "Manual" like the tank and car currently have. Though the Automated weapon could just be something you put in the modular grid.
I think that items on the modular grid should change the graphics of the item, eg a waggon with 2 turrets should show that there are turrets mounted on it on its graphics.
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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by hitzu » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:07 pm

TuckJohn wrote:When I saw the title of this thread, it gave me an idea that would add an interesting gameplay mechanic to trains, although it might be hard to impliment.
Basicly, have a "flatbed" train car in which that you can build things on, such as inserters, turrets, chests, etc.
Yes, you're right, partially. I don't know if buildin belts and inserters is a good idea, but some of the buildings like roboports and turrets worth to be on wagons.
With this feature another machine can be added to be placed at the front of a train car- a rail layer! I would be an interesting step twords self-replicating factories. or perhaps you could allow things to be built on two flatbeds of parrallel train lines, allowing(potentialy) to set up rail production on the train laying the rails! the only problem though would be how turns would be done with the parrall lines.

Rail laying machine as a train module is a cool idea!

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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by vzybilly » Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:12 pm

I love this idea, platform wagons. I see a basic that adds in a 2x5? maybe a 1x4 to have things fit "inside" the wagon sizes. then a double wide where the width of it is doubled, including the collision_box! then maybe a triple wide? quad wide?
Wagon Size
An amazing thing for this would be to enable the entities to still work while the train is in motion. I know some mod stuff kinda just breaks when the train starts...

Another part is the ability to transfer from one train to the next! Long handed inserters and underground belts needed for it.

A simple more dirty fix would be to add a train surface where all these entities get placed, then just render what they're currently doing on the train.
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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by hitzu » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:47 pm

ssilk wrote:
hitzu wrote: I will make some images later to illustrate this idea.
Sounds very promising. :)
Sorry for the delay, I had very little time to work on this. Still WIP
C__Users_Комп_Desktop_train platform.svg — Inkscape 2015-09-24 01.26.28.jpg
C__Users_Комп_Desktop_train platform.svg — Inkscape 2015-09-24 01.26.28.jpg (66.67 KiB) Viewed 8077 times
Basically this is how I see wagon-platforms with a turret gun and two containers with a light oil as an example. I should have done a corresponding UI but I think you clearly see the layout and 4 free spots which I can't imagine how to fill. Of course this is just a concept. :)

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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by ssilk » Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:21 pm

Fantastic elaborated suggestion. :)
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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by TuckJohn » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:05 pm

hitzu wrote:
ssilk wrote:
hitzu wrote: I will make some images later to illustrate this idea.
Sounds very promising. :)
Sorry for the delay, I had very little time to work on this. Still WIP
C__Users_Комп_Desktop_train platform.svg — Inkscape 2015-09-24 01.26.28.jpg
Basically this is how I see wagon-platforms with a turret gun and two containers with a light oil as an example. I should have done a corresponding UI but I think you clearly see the layout and 4 free spots which I can't imagine how to fill. Of course this is just a concept. :)
That was exactly what I was envisioning! Very nice job. Did you use blender or another rendering program?
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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by bobucles » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:10 pm

Trains as a mobile pile of land tiles would be pretty great. There may be some technical limitations, like it would be pretty demanding to have always active turrets on the move. There may be some practical limitations, like a pile of chests would give trains over a dozen times more storage capacity and would make their cargo very unwieldy. But overall it would be pretty cool.

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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by TuckJohn » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:16 pm

bobucles wrote: There may be some practical limitations, like a pile of chests would give trains over a dozen times more storage capacity and would make their cargo very unwieldy. But overall it would be pretty cool.
How about this to solve the problem with cargo space- get rid of the current wagons all-together!
But the more sensible solution is to only allow cirtian types of things to be put on the wagons, like turrets, oil tanks, etc.
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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by hitzu » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:29 pm

TuckJohn wrote: That was exactly what I was envisioning! Very nice job. Did you use blender or another rendering program?
Thank you :)
No, this is a flat vector image, not a 3D. I use Inkscape.
bobucles wrote:]There may be some practical limitations, like a pile of chests would give trains over a dozen times more storage capacity and would make their cargo very unwieldy. But overall it would be pretty cool.
Yep, but only if regular chests would be allowed there. But I think chests should be rebalanced to represent their inner voulume grafically. I mean larger chests should be actually larger. :)

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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by bobucles » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:40 pm

The cargo capacity of chests currently doesn't matter that much. If chests can be plopped on trains, the total train's cargo capacity will be a pretty important balancing angle.

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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by hitzu » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:48 pm

bobucles wrote:The cargo capacity of chests currently doesn't matter that much. If chests can be plopped on trains, the total train's cargo capacity will be a pretty important balancing angle.
That's because I don't like the idea of placing regular chests on the train at least in their current state.

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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by vzybilly » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:10 pm

One thing that could help is to dynamically build a train weight. even if it's something like having weightPerItemSlot = CargoWagonWeight/CargoWagonInventorySize, then add up all input/output/general item slots and multiply by that value. (weight = 1000, size = 30... 100/3... about 33, let's say 34 Weight per Item Slot) if the trains do get a 2x5 platform to build on, that's 10 tiles, if all of those are steel/smart/logistical chests, 48 slots per so 480 total slots, multiplied by the 34 is 16320. making a single wagon full of steel/smart/logistical chests the same as 16.32 cargo wagons. that train will move SLOW. if we add on abit of code to include tiles used, let's say an extra 10% per tile used, if all of them are used, that's an extra 100% which turns that weight into 32640!
33 cargo wagons = 1 platform wagon full of steel/smart/logistical chests. (3 x wooden chest size)
22 cargo wagons = 1 platform wagon full of iron chests. (2 x wooden chest size)
11 cargo wagons = 1 platform wagon full of wooden chests.
for gun turrets, 2 per wagon, 4 tiles each with 1 inventory slot, 8 tiles and 68 weight for 122 total weight.
1 cargo wagon = 8 platform wagons full of turrets.
for a roboport, 4x4=16 tiles (of 20, double wide wagon), 7 robo slots, 7 repair pack slots, 14 slots + 16 tiles worth. 476 slot weight + 160%. 1237 weight.
1.2 cargo wagons = 1 platform wagon with a robo-port.

3.264 cargo wagons per steel/smart/logistical chest.

the value would only need to be recalculated when the wagon is changed, meaning there could be very little performance hit, even less if a wagon updates the whole train's weight. it could be something as simple as, when GUI is opened, copy wagon weight, when closed, train weight = train weight - old wagon weight + new wagon weight. there could also be a fluidAmountToSlot multiplier, something like 10 fluid size = 6.2 slots? making a pipe have 6.2 slots while a tank has 1550 slots... 6.2 is probably way to high...
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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by TuckJohn » Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:10 pm

vzybilly wrote:One thing that could help is to dynamically build a train weight. even if it's something like having weightPerItemSlot = CargoWagonWeight/CargoWagonInventorySize, then add up all input/output/general item slots and multiply by that value. (weight = 1000, size = 30... 100/3... about 33, let's say 34 Weight per Item Slot) if the trains do get a 2x5 platform to build on, that's 10 tiles, if all of those are steel/smart/logistical chests, 48 slots per so 480 total slots, multiplied by the 34 is 16320. making a single wagon full of steel/smart/logistical chests the same as 16.32 cargo wagons. that train will move SLOW. if we add on abit of code to include tiles used, let's say an extra 10% per tile used, if all of them are used, that's an extra 100% which turns that weight into 32640!
I think that chest(as it is) should not be allowed on to the wagon, as you would only ever need 1 wagon for item runs. Rather, I would prefer if any chest placed there got changed so that the internal size gets changed. For example, placing a wooden chest on the platform would only have 1 slot, iron would have 2, etc. It would solve the problem, and a platform of chest would very nearly equal what the current cargo wagon is.
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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by vzybilly » Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:54 pm

I would like for the ability to do mobile logistics... drive a train up, pull out a blueprint from the train cargo, place it and the train comes alive with robo buddies to build the station. you're idea of dividing chest sizes by 16 would make it a good deal harder for portable logistics... though, it could provide enough to build a more functional one... also, your way would need new entities for all the things on trains, to skew the stack sizes, while mine is just a small update to game logic.
Either way, it would be the game devs that get to choose how they implement it, if they even want to.
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Re: Multipurpose modular platform wagons

Post by TuckJohn » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:22 pm

vzybilly wrote:I would like for the ability to do mobile logistics... drive a train up, pull out a blueprint from the train cargo, place it and the train comes alive with robo buddies to build the station. you're idea of dividing chest sizes by 16 would make it a good deal harder for portable logistics... though, it could provide enough to build a more functional one... also, your way would need new entities for all the things on trains, to skew the stack sizes, while mine is just a small update to game logic.
I think with several wagons, logistics would be fine. Just look at bentham's megatrain in railworld. Pull up in a train like that and you will be fine :D
vzybilly wrote:Either way, it would be the game devs that get to choose how they implement it, if they even want to.
True dat.
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