Better defense systems!

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Goddohando
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Better defense systems!

Post by Goddohando » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:30 am

I think that the problem with the defense system as it is now is that turrets that use ammo are useles, everyone upgrade to lasers as soon as they can and that's the end of it. And it's not a good thing.

I think it would be much better to do it as in some strategy games:

Tier 1 weapons:
Should be really easy to make and quite cheap.
* Small crappy laser, like one of NOD faction in C&C:TS, uses electricity but gives low damage output

Tier 2 weapons:
These turrets require you to build the tower first and then place the turret head on the base.
* Turret base - does not do anything but allows to place turrets on it. There could be different turrets base with different HP/armor.
* Bullet turret, much greater damage than in tier 1, but slower to rotate. Medium range.
* Death ray turret - consumes hell of a lot of energy but deals quite good damage and affects multiple targets at once. Obviously requires no ammo.

Tier 3 weapons:
These are extremely expensive to the point that it is just unwise to use them for the whole base, but only for critical points on the base.
* Scorpion laser - targets single target from a long range and deals insane amount of damage in one single shot (like railgun), but is very slow to recharge and can only fire in a predefined direction with around 90 degrees angle. Consumes a lot of energy per shot.
* Rocket turret - placed on towers like tier 1 weapons. Works basically the same way as rocket towers are in the game.

So, what that all means? It means that for each particular case it is better to choose different selection of defense weapons and there is no "the best" weapon among them. All have its purposes.

Now what other non weapon things we can add for defense?

Tier 1 defense:
Wooden walls - the same as current walls but about 50% of their durability. It would make it easier for new players to protect their base.

Tier 2 defense:
* Walls as we have now - no changes needed.
* Automatic doors - would open and close when player gets close. Should work EXACTLY like in C&C:TS.

Tier 3 defense:
* Laser walls like in C&C:TS ( http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/21 ... t2_STW.jpg ) but of longer length. Should be expensive and consume a lot of electricity but indestructible. Only the towers could be destroyed, so these towers would need to be protected, while the walls themselves not. It would make base building more interesting and diverse.

Some example screenshots
http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/21 ... t2_STW.jpg
http://media.desura.com/images/mods/1/15/14166/004.jpg
http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/14 ... _Promo.jpg

That's pretty much it.

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Re: Better defense systems!

Post by ssilk » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:52 pm

Yes, this makes sense, cause when you look at supreme commander you will have also this three levels - basic, major and specials. Or so...
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Re: Better defense systems!

Post by n9103 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:14 pm

I'm curious why people seem to want to turn Factorio into something more like a Mod of some other game? (C&C,SupCom)
It's not one or two topics, it's quite a few over the last few months.
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Re: Better defense systems!

Post by Coolthulhu » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:33 pm

Laser walls sound interesting, but a bit too sci-fi. If you can construct lasers strong enough to prevent anything entering, why not just direct them at stuff you want to destroy?
They'd make nice gates, though. Opening and closing extremely quickly, maybe even staying open until creepers come close.

4-directional laser walls are fun when used offensively. Netstorm had something of this nature, except blocking projectiles and not units. When on the offense, you can trap enemies in series of walls that are impossible to break through (all towers are always protected by walls).
For defensive usage, 8-directional ones would make more sense, so that you could protect concave sections, halving the number of required protected towers in long walls (at the cost of doubling the number of ones that don't need protection).

I'd rather see electrified fences, though. Those could be more of a deterrent than a defensive system (attacking them causes lots of pain, so creepers could take longer routes to avoid it) and could also transmit electricity on their own.

I don't like the idea of a basic turret using a laser weapon. Making an effective laser weapon is much harder than making an effective gun. There could be some advanced light laser weapons with great rotation speed used to destroy tiny targets (suicidal creeper-bombs? creeper rockets?), but I don't see how a crude laser would fit anywhere except maybe in a factory.

Directional guns sound cool. I'd prefer them to be railguns than lasers (so that there's a clear progression - gun->laser->railgun, not gun->laser->laser2), but that's more of a cosmetic thing. Railgun ammo would be rather cheap compared to the energy cost of firing the gun. Directional guns could also be used to "siege" creeper bases, especially ones with heavy defenses.
Rocket turrets were considered a few times already and I think most people agree that they're a good idea. I'd hate them to use normal aiming AI, though. A regular creeper isn't worth wasting a rocket on.

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Re: Better defense systems!

Post by ssilk » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:02 am

n9103 wrote:I'm curious why people seem to want to turn Factorio into something more like a Mod of some other game? (C&C,SupCom)
It's not one or two topics, it's quite a few over the last few months.
I don't see that. I think it's obvious, to compare f. with other games. And game mechanics, which works in other games. And it's clear, that f. and The named games has some (small) parallels. And we are speaking about a very special theme. For example: For attack I think complete different. There is some Zerg-like stuff useful. Masses of small units. Wasting all my raw material.
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Re: Better defense systems!

Post by Dakkanor » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:21 pm

love the idea of laser walls, but i'd say that power use is proportional to length, and each hit it take's is absorbed by using more energy.

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Re: Better defense systems!

Post by 3LollipopZ » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:47 am

What about just an electric fence that is connected to the grid and deals power at a setting that could be adjusted :) Low - Medium - High - Extreme

The fence will supply power, if required, to other buildings as well (modification of the existing pole system perhaps?)

The fence could allow conveyors to pass underneath without underground perhaps?

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Re: Better defense systems!

Post by Dakkanor » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:21 am

3LollipopZ wrote:What about just an electric fence that is connected to the grid and deals power at a setting that could be adjusted :) Low - Medium - High - Extreme

The fence will supply power, if required, to other buildings as well (modification of the existing pole system perhaps?)

The fence could allow conveyors to pass underneath without underground perhaps?
i just got the image of sending iron ore under a laser fence and it coming out as iron plates, that would be kinda funny to watch.

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