Diesel. Liquid fuel instead of solid fuel

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JohnyDL
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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by JohnyDL »

Longbolt wrote:Yeah, this is just for game balance, but I suppose concessions can be made. However, heavy oil has more impurities, doesn't combust as well, and requires pre-heating - all which uses up energy and makes it less efficient.
Yup that's why Aviation fuel is based on heavy oils like octane or kerosene (8-16 carbons long) rather than pentane/petroleum gas (cars use)... wait, wouldn't they want to pack in the most energy per mass?

despite impurities and the preheating necessary longer chain hydrocarbons contain more energy than their smaller chain brethren by more than enough to compensate for this perceived inefficiency, and we're assuming that the oil refineries actually remove impurities to a practical level as part of their fractional distillation process
Quantum_mechanic wrote:Trains would be able to run more smoothly on lubricant.
Though going too long (18 carbons or longer) makes the chains non-volatile and without aeration the molecule has no oxygen to combust with making Lube a non combustible fuel.

Methane/Ethane (1/2 carbons) will heat water and food but don't have the energy density for combustion engines and aren't practical for portable applications
Butane/Propane (3/4 carbons) are a higher energy density perfect for transportable gas stoves and LPG is just about sustainable for engines although dangerous
Pentane-Octane (5-8 carbons) are good fuels for combustion engines without requiring pressurization or excessive preheating at ground level
Octane-Hexadecane (8-16 carbons) are high energy, not volatile at lower pressures, require extra technology to work but is more than compensated for by increased energy
Lubricants (18-34 carbons) are high energy almost completely non volatile, will burn slower but producing more energy per gram as length increases, though over longer time
Plastics (uncountable carbons) are about the most energy dense hydrocarbon and can (in game) be basically analogous to solid fuel (mixed plastic) and plastic bars (refined plastic)

which brings me to the final point
Longbolt wrote:TL;DR: Liquids should be usable fuel resources. It’s really friggin dumb this isn’t in the game by default.
We have solid fuel we can already use heavy oil light oil and petroleum as fuels for our trains with only one extra step

Kyralessa
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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by Kyralessa »

Longbolt wrote:It’s really friggin dumb this isn’t in the game by default.
If I were a game developer, I know I'd definitely prioritize a suggestion by someone who said I was dumb for not having already done it.

:roll:

mrvn
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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by mrvn »

Kyralessa wrote:
Longbolt wrote:It’s really friggin dumb this isn’t in the game by default.
If I were a game developer, I know I'd definitely prioritize a suggestion by someone who said I was dumb for not having already done it.

:roll:
Obviously. :)

Prior to fluid wagons and pumps getting the liquid into the car (not barreled, which has other issues that would require changes) was impossible. So no surprise they didn't have that option back then. But now that there is a fluid wagon and pump ...


I really like the mods that add a tender to the locomotive for fuel. So you put coal in the tender and the locomotive then runs off that coal. Can we have a fluid tender so locomotives can run off oils or wood/coal + water for an early steam powered train.

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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by Longbolt »

mrvn wrote: I really like the mods that add a tender to the locomotive for fuel. So you put coal in the tender and the locomotive then runs off that coal. Can we have a fluid tender so locomotives can run off oils or wood/coal + water for an early steam powered train.
Having a tender is a really cool idea, but it seems supplanted by the ability to just refuel at stations. Maybe if fuel consumption was increased, this would become viable (perhaps necessary), but this would require a re-balance of the game.

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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by Longbolt »

JohnyDL wrote: Yup that's why Aviation fuel is based on heavy oils like octane or kerosene (8-16 carbons long) rather than pentane/petroleum gas (cars use)... wait, wouldn't they want to pack in the most energy per mass?

despite impurities and the preheating necessary longer chain hydrocarbons contain more energy than their smaller chain brethren by more than enough to compensate for this perceived inefficiency, and we're assuming that the oil refineries actually remove impurities to a practical level as part of their fractional distillation process
Well, you're looking at just the molecular energy of the hydrocarbons, but the process to make those fuels, and their combustion process are radically different in output, etc. However, I suppose it would fine to assume that the HO production is very clean.
JohnyDL wrote: We have solid fuel we can already use heavy oil light oil and petroleum as fuels for our trains with only one extra step
It would be much more convenient to use the oil directly, rather than having to convert it. This alternative provides more options for players wanting to siphon excess oil. For instance, a solid fuel operation is feeding into a rocket fuel plant. However, the ratio is off and perhaps there is excess oils being produced. Instead of having to input energy to convert the extra, just barrel away the excess and use it for fueling.

Besides that, we can burn small electric poles, but not flammable oils? What gives?
Last edited by Longbolt on Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Longbolt
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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by Longbolt »

Kyralessa wrote:
Longbolt wrote:It’s really friggin dumb this isn’t in the game by default.
If I were a game developer, I know I'd definitely prioritize a suggestion by someone who said I was dumb for not having already done it.

:roll:
Well, if I were a game developer, I know I'd definitely care about the opinions of someone who simply comments to criticize others, rather than actually contributing something to discussion, and remaining on topic. However, that's sometimes too difficult.

:lol:

bobucles
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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by bobucles »

Sometimes I wonder if solid fuel was a placeholder from the early days because liquid fuel couldn't work in boilers for whatever reason. It would be neat to have more recipes that are just all fluids.

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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by Longbolt »

Ok, so I've been doing some more poking at this.

So I ran some conversions based on game energy units… which are obscure, but I was able to use existing in-game numbers to calculate this. Assuming Fuel value is akin to Energy Density, here is a realistic look at the Fuel values for each fluid. Understandably, this is not caloric, based on specific heat, specific energy, etc. Seemingly, as with game mechanics, fuel doesn’t scale like many would suggest, rather fuel utility is linked to what would be density of available work. Below is an edited table, with comparison fuels.

New Suggestion Table:
Crude Oil - ~0.29 MJ per fluid unit (105% acceleration bonus)
Heavy Oil - ~0.27 MJ per fluid unit (100% acceleration bonus)
Light Oil - 0.3 MJ per fluid unit (110% acceleration bonus)
Petroleum - ~0.3 MJ per fluid unit (120% acceleration bonus)
Coal - 8 MJ per item unit (100% acceleration bonus)

Detailed chart here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Old Suggestion Table:
Crude Oil - 0.04 MJ per fluid unit (100% acceleration bonus)
Heavy Oil - 0.16 MJ per fluid unit (105% acceleration bonus)
Light Oil - 0.24 MJ per fluid unit (110% acceleration bonus)
Petroleum - 1.2 MJ per fluid unit (160% acceleration bonus)

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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by Longbolt »

bobucles wrote:Sometimes I wonder if solid fuel was a placeholder from the early days because liquid fuel couldn't work in boilers for whatever reason. It would be neat to have more recipes that are just all fluids.
I totally agree. Solid Fuel seems like a very generic item. It's just a freaking cube of fuel... as if fuel was some sort of actual substance by name only.

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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by FuryoftheStars »

+1 on the premise of this idea. Would like to see liquid burning support for vehicles to be added to base game.

Impatient
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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by Impatient »

imo i the idea in general is interesting. but oil and gas not just as fuel for vehicles but as fuel for every entity, that burns fuel. then i can decide, if i want to depend on coal for my boilers or on oil. this can add some interesting complexity.

pumps refuling vehicles is also interesting. 'can be installed at trains stops. or a buggy or tank have to be parked next to a pump connected to a gas pipe to be refueled. nice.

one thing i don't like is the idea of putting barrels into the vehicles fuel reserve and them getting used up. this breaks the idea of barrel reusability and the need to barrel and un-barrel fluids for me.

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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by AileTheAlien »

Personally, I think liquid-burning should be for the vehicles only, with a separate type of train to keep it easier to put into the game, easier for new players, and easier to balance. Solid fuels should only be burnable by power plants and trains.
Impatient wrote:one thing i don't like is the idea of putting barrels into the vehicles fuel reserve and them getting used up. this breaks the idea of barrel reusability
Just have them act like nuclear fuel cells - when used up, you get the empty barrel back in a different slot in the vehicle.

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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by FuryoftheStars »

Yeah, I posted my +1 quickly the other day but didn't have time to say anything further.

For simplicity sake, I would be for just simply adding the support to everything.

In my own head and my opinion, and would mod/play this way as needed if the support were added, I'd love to see cars & tanks changed so that they use petro and/or light oil (based on some (very) fast reading, I think this is Factorio's version of Diesel?), and a light oil burning train added (perhaps even as a more advanced train).

Having cars and tanks run off from wood, coal, and other solid fuels like a boiler/steam engine concept doesn't make a lot of sense, especially with them being loaded with regular engines. I understand why it was made this way in the first place, but as fluids and fluid handling has been improved, it'd be nice to see these changed. It may even be possible to modify pumps slightly so that in the case of cars/tanks they don't have to be lined up perfectly, or just simply add in a new pump like entity that doesn't require the perfect alignment. The other option, too, would be adding in a special entity that's essentially like a parking spot slab and when a car or tank stops on it, it will auto rotate their orientation as needed.

The current base train that burns wood, coal, etc should be left in (albeit with a change in ingredients) as this is essentially like the older days steam engine trains. Then the light oil burning train can be added as a later tech/advanced train.

Realistically speaking, I believe crude oil and heavy oil shouldn't really be usable as a fuel source directly, and I also believe that typically anything that is designed to run on Diesel (light oil) cannot use gasoline (petroleum gas) and vice versa. However, I realize that these types of things can often be discarded for fun factor. I'll just mod/play it more to my tastes.

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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by mrvn »

Steam engine trains should require water. And most realistic would be to pump in water in the locomotive and add some form of solid fuel to a tender.

Practical would be if one could insert water barrels. Because otherwise what do you do if a train is stranded somewhere without water? Place a pump and unbarreling assembler next to it to refuel the water tank from water barrels?

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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by FuryoftheStars »

mrvn wrote:Steam engine trains should require water. And most realistic would be to pump in water in the locomotive and add some form of solid fuel to a tender.

Practical would be if one could insert water barrels. Because otherwise what do you do if a train is stranded somewhere without water? Place a pump and unbarreling assembler next to it to refuel the water tank from water barrels?
Good thought/point. Although on water consumption, would it make sense that it should use the water slower than the fuel? Thus, just need to pump water in whenever it stops to refuel as normal.

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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by mrvn »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
mrvn wrote:Steam engine trains should require water. And most realistic would be to pump in water in the locomotive and add some form of solid fuel to a tender.

Practical would be if one could insert water barrels. Because otherwise what do you do if a train is stranded somewhere without water? Place a pump and unbarreling assembler next to it to refuel the water tank from water barrels?
Good thought/point. Although on water consumption, would it make sense that it should use the water slower than the fuel? Thus, just need to pump water in whenever it stops to refuel as normal.
Well, slower is relative. It depends on consumption and storage size. A steam locomotive is just like a steam engine except for the dynamo. So I would expect it to consume water and fuel in the same ratios as a boiler but then be a bit more energy efficient than a steam engine. The last part is probably already fine tuned in the current fuel consumption of trains. So I would leave fuel consumption as is and just add water consumption so it has the same ratio as boilers.

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bobingabout
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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by bobingabout »

For your suggestion, see here: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=53981
My request so far has yielded the ability to set a fuel value on fluids, however, the only use for it so far is that you can change steam engines to use this instead of heat energy. This could be useful for making some sort of diesel electric generator, but not much use for something else, like, trying to make oil powered boilers, or oil burning mining drills, etc.
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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by evildogbot100 »

I made a diesel locomotive mod that pretty much do what you requested, only for train though. If you want a feature I might implement it.

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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by Impatient »

the realistic thing that would happen is, that the player drives or walks there and picks the train up. the other realistic thing would be, that your train never runs out of water, as the player always keeps it filled with water, the same way as it is always kept fueled.

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Re: Omni-liquid Fuel Burning for Vehicles

Post by Red »

Just wanted to refloat this item because I agree with the original thread started (specially with the added comments about different levels of efficiency). I was going to post a suggestion, but thankfully found this thread first ;)
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