"Permanent" resource sources or resource deplition warning

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RawCode
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"Permanent" resource sources or resource deplition warning

Post by RawCode »

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away SC1 depleted vespene still produces resources but in much decreased rate (-80%).

It will be very good move to allow resource mining from depleted fields, in decreased rate, this will eliminate situation "locked by creepers without resources" and "suddenly ran out of iron and can't do anything".

Warnings are good, but, just warning player will end in punishing player who ignored warning with sudden resource cutoff.

To keep resources finite, it can be something like "last 200 resoures from field turned into 2000 but mined 90% slower" or each 100 resources after declared capacity slowdown process by 10%.

Unlike just warning with sudden cutoff, player will notice less resources, and will have some time to react.

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Re: "Permanent" resource sources or resource deplition warni

Post by ssilk »

We had the idea to give the mines and other devices warning:
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... ?f=6&t=959

and having deeper mines, which output also "garbage" or where the output must be sorted.
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=1038

I like the "turning into slower"-feature. But I know also that some player will use this as extra resource and instead will built more solar-power instead. Think for running out of coal: it doesn't make sense to add 2000 coal when you only get a coal every 10 seconds out of it, because you burn the coal faster down, than it would bring you anything. No, I think such "endless" resources are no solution for factorio. :)

Hm. Starcraft is not Factorio. Starcraft had a special targeted audience: masses. Factorio is more special. I would say, that at some point the game can fail.
But I would bring in some mechanism to help the player to avoid this, so that he cannot say "Oh, this is so sudden, such mean". :) But no "net", which will the player catch in every case, because Factorio is not Starcraft.

Examples, what I mean, that it is on the "right sense":
- "You can install a big fat red LED on your screen, and you can install a "mining"-sensor which brings the LED to light, if the conditions are so and so".
- Statistics: "This is your current state: You have so much resources left, this is your current production, this is what you stored totally, this is what might be on the belts."
I suggest to make that as an extra building (Statistics research?) and it takes some time to calculate it (works similar to radar).
- Something like a research-counselor: "We recommend you to research something (e. g. deep-mines) now, because the calculations show, that you don't have enough resources in your explored area, that you can't reach level X". I would like that, because sometimes you need really to think some seconds about what to research next, a little help would be nice here.
- different "difficulties", which means, that for beginners a reserve is available, but for experienced this is not.

In other words: I won't make it that easy. The factorio way is, that I need to build it, when I need help (this is what the game makes so astonishing). I mean a player should fail at some point, otherwise he won't learn it. Of course he will be helped, but only in a way, that he makes the changes himself.
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Re: "Permanent" resource sources or resource deplition warni

Post by n9103 »

Different difficulties already exist.
Resource fields can be larger or smaller on different difficulties, not much different from making them "deeper"
Colonel Failure wrote:You can lose your Ecologist Badge quite quickly once you get to the point of just being able to murder them willy-nilly without a second care in the world.

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Re: "Permanent" resource sources or resource deplition warni

Post by ssilk »

With difficult-Level I mean some different behavior,not different resources.
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Re: "Permanent" resource sources or resource deplition warni

Post by n9103 »

- different "difficulties", which means, that for beginners a reserve is available, but for experienced this is not.
What did you mean by reserve, if not resources?
Colonel Failure wrote:You can lose your Ecologist Badge quite quickly once you get to the point of just being able to murder them willy-nilly without a second care in the world.

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Re: "Permanent" resource sources or resource deplition warni

Post by ssilk »

Ah. Hm. I mean, that the way over more or less endless resources is too easy. This is not the factorio way...

The right way is, that it is more or less thinkable and the player needs to work for it. For example: a mine which suddenly has some extra ore, but works slower isn't, but a meteor, which comes down near your base, maybe destroys a bit and then a new resource field is available, this is thinkable.

Other ideas:
- as a beginner i have a furnace, which needs only 50% but create 100% and take 400-800% time.

- some lake disappears and offers ressources, but this was the lake where your steam engines where.

- the creepers sends you some stuff, because they think you stopped expanding...

And many more ideas.
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Re: "Permanent" resource sources or resource deplition warni

Post by n9103 »

Alright, I've seen this coming for a awhile, so I'm just going to address this now, and generally steer clear of you until I see you understand the issue.

Your Idea of what Factorio is supposed to be, is Your Opinion, not fact, not even a Dev's opinion.
Your ideas are no more valid than any other supporter. Presenting them as fact is offensive and stifles the creativity of others.
Your having many ideas and feeling strongly about them does not diminish anyone else's ideas, nor give you any right to deny them their ideas.
You fail to grasp this concept in most of your posts that had someone opposing your ideas.
Perhaps part of this is a translation issue, but it's a minor part at best.


As for being "too easy"; You highly overestimate the usefulness of a single tile of an infinite amount.
The absolute maximum output from that one tile, (assuming no mods) is 4 electric mines worth. If you think having 4 mines that never run out somehow makes it now insta-win and too easy, you've never run into a situation where you have a low resource flow. That's a pittance to survive on, and ammo crafted from it could barely hold off creeper waves if you're at the point that you have no nearby resource fields in the starter area. (Creating more tiles than the 4 mines could tap into would, of course, make the game too easy, but you're not supposed to look for ways things can be abused as justification for it not being allowed.)
Colonel Failure wrote:You can lose your Ecologist Badge quite quickly once you get to the point of just being able to murder them willy-nilly without a second care in the world.

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Re: "Permanent" resource sources or resource deplition warni

Post by ssilk »

n9103 wrote:Your Idea of what Factorio is supposed to be, is Your Opinion, not fact, not even a Dev's opinion.
Your ideas are no more valid than any other supporter. Presenting them as fact is offensive and stifles the creativity of others.
I don't want that. I try to say "in my opinion", "I mean", "I think", "perhaps" etc. But sometimes not, especially, when I think it is clear, that it is a discussion, like this. That's what forums are about. And with "we" I mean this forum, because I try to avoid to say "it was my idea", when there was a thread over 2 pages. Sorry, if that confuses, but my standpoint is, that I'm just a user of this forum. It didn't came to my mind, that "we" can also mean something else. :?
Your having many ideas and feeling strongly about them does not diminish anyone else's ideas, nor give you any right to deny them their ideas.
Huh? Never intended that. If so, then sorry. I will try my best birthing (or help birthing) new ideas and bring my ideas not as fact, but I must admit, that it is often much easier writing about it as fact. Call it laziness.
You fail to grasp this concept in most of your posts that had someone opposing your ideas.
You can call me many things, but this isn't so. I try to find positive sides, but if someone wants belts which run in two direction and I'm not, how should I say my opinion, by saying that I like the others? I need to lie. That's not my thing.
Perhaps part of this is a translation issue, but it's a minor part at best.
Strong words. Again, I'll try better to avoid that. But... It's a forum, it's about different opinions. The more, the better. I try to be fair and I do not bite. :) if someone has a different opinion I try to find arguments for mine. If I don't find any or too less, I don't post. Easy.
Sometimes I get fixed into my opinion. Yes. Sorry again, but who hasn't ever such moments?
As for being "too easy"; You highly overestimate the usefulness of a single tile of an infinite amount.
The absolute maximum output from that one tile, (assuming no mods) is 4 electric mines worth. If you think having 4 mines that never run out somehow makes it now insta-win and too easy, you've never run into a situation where you have a low resource flow. That's a pittance to survive on, and ammo crafted from it could barely hold off creeper waves if you're at the point that you have no nearby resource fields in the starter area. (Creating more tiles than the 4 mines could tap into would, of course, make the game too easy, but you're not supposed to look for ways things can be abused as justification for it not being allowed.)
Its not so, that I never got into this situation. The problem for me as a beginner was with that, that it wasn't solved, when I found small amounts of items. As you describe it, it's eventually a long death, instead of a short. Ammo is one thing, think for example to the needed energy for driving the mines. If you lack coal, this won't bring much, or makes it even worse. :)
My experience or better learning with this situation is, that new users won't learn to handle this situation, when they got short amounts of resources; my learning was, that I need big amounts and that I need to find them early so that I've time to bring it to me.

To be more concrete: something like a credit is good (I think to the market, the devs said, that they want to add it, how about exchanging wood against iron ore? or something he has to pay back later or something he has to work for). But no free stuff, nothing which makes the game slower as it is, no mysterical change of working or something which can be used to cheat. But that's my opinion to it. :)

I bring another point in: I think playing this game is a process of learning. So, instead of introducing stuff to help the player over bad situations, it's maybe better to give him better tutorials, docs etc. to handle this situation himself.

PS: hope this was better, because you're right I have the tendency to bring my ideas as fact and I need to rewrite this post 3 times to avoid that. If not, please tell, because old habits are not easy to stop. :)
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Re: "Permanent" resource sources or resource deplition warni

Post by n9103 »

I admit it was strongly worded, but you tend to railroad the ideas of others.
I'm glad you understood the point I was making, and hope that we can find common ground work together on.
Colonel Failure wrote:You can lose your Ecologist Badge quite quickly once you get to the point of just being able to murder them willy-nilly without a second care in the world.

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