Remove Expensive Mode

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aka13
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Re: Remove Expensive Mode

Post by aka13 »

Klonan wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:59 pm
aka13 wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:05 am
Klonan wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:53 am
We had a discussion prompted by this topic, and we agreed with a lot of the points,
Even internally the expensive mode causes a lot of hassle and code maintainence

Since we have already 'broken the seal' of internal/base game mods with the expansion (the expansion content will be a separate mod),
It was agreed we would make the expensive mode recipes into a small mod that will be packaged with the game.
How will that relate with steam achievements, and will deathworld be supported with the expansion?
Using internal mods will still allow achievements as normal,
Death world should work the same as now, unless I misunderstand the query?
No, I was just making sure I understood YOU right :D
Glad to hear it.
Pony/Furfag avatar? Opinion discarded.

rhynex
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Re: Remove Expensive Mode

Post by rhynex »

Klonan wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:53 am
We had a discussion prompted by this topic, and we agreed with a lot of the points,
Even internally the expensive mode causes a lot of hassle and code maintainence

Since we have already 'broken the seal' of internal/base game mods with the expansion (the expansion content will be a separate mod),
It was agreed we would make the expensive mode recipes into a small mod that will be packaged with the game.
it is possible that I misunderstood the decision. just wondering if it is decided.
is it expansion feature only or 1.2 as well?
how shall migration happen? like 1.1 has expensive mode as a separate recipe tree but 1.2 shall not (that is what I understood from above). so what shall happen to existing games with expensive mode of 1.1?
shall 1.2 refuse to open such maps?

some information about this would be really nice. because depending on the answers above, it is really waste of time to start new expensive mode maps (and maybe invest in making that mod early)

why I ask? because I have not played with normal mode for two years (maybe 3, after 0.17 changes). I even made my own mods on top of expensive mode recipe tree. it seems removing expensive mode means I have to make my own recipe world to continue my games instead of staying at expensive mode.

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Re: Remove Expensive Mode

Post by FuryoftheStars »

rhynex wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:00 pm
Klonan wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:53 am
We had a discussion prompted by this topic, and we agreed with a lot of the points,
Even internally the expensive mode causes a lot of hassle and code maintainence

Since we have already 'broken the seal' of internal/base game mods with the expansion (the expansion content will be a separate mod),
It was agreed we would make the expensive mode recipes into a small mod that will be packaged with the game.
it is possible that I misunderstood the decision. just wondering if it is decided.
is it expansion feature only or 1.2 as well?
how shall migration happen? like 1.1 has expensive mode as a separate recipe tree but 1.2 shall not (that is what I understood from above). so what shall happen to existing games with expensive mode of 1.1?
shall 1.2 refuse to open such maps?

some information about this would be really nice. because depending on the answers above, it is really waste of time to start new expensive mode maps (and maybe invest in making that mod early)

why I ask? because I have not played with normal mode for two years (maybe 3, after 0.17 changes). I even made my own mods on top of expensive mode recipe tree. it seems removing expensive mode means I have to make my own recipe world to continue my games instead of staying at expensive mode.
It sounds like expensive mode will be made into a mod that can be activated separately from anything else, but like the expansion (which is also going to behave like a mod), it will not affect achievement status. Otherwise functionality may likely be the same. It will work on existing maps provided you enable the mod, otherwise it will revert their costs to that of normal. Any player created mods that actually use expensive mode will likely have to be updated to work.

rhynex
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Re: Remove Expensive Mode

Post by rhynex »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:41 pm
rhynex wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:00 pm
Klonan wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:53 am
We had a discussion prompted by this topic, and we agreed with a lot of the points,
Even internally the expensive mode causes a lot of hassle and code maintainence

Since we have already 'broken the seal' of internal/base game mods with the expansion (the expansion content will be a separate mod),
It was agreed we would make the expensive mode recipes into a small mod that will be packaged with the game.
it is possible that I misunderstood the decision. just wondering if it is decided.
is it expansion feature only or 1.2 as well?
how shall migration happen? like 1.1 has expensive mode as a separate recipe tree but 1.2 shall not (that is what I understood from above). so what shall happen to existing games with expensive mode of 1.1?
shall 1.2 refuse to open such maps?

some information about this would be really nice. because depending on the answers above, it is really waste of time to start new expensive mode maps (and maybe invest in making that mod early)

why I ask? because I have not played with normal mode for two years (maybe 3, after 0.17 changes). I even made my own mods on top of expensive mode recipe tree. it seems removing expensive mode means I have to make my own recipe world to continue my games instead of staying at expensive mode.
It sounds like expensive mode will be made into a mod that can be activated separately from anything else, but like the expansion (which is also going to behave like a mod), it will not affect achievement status. Otherwise functionality may likely be the same. It will work on existing maps provided you enable the mod, otherwise it will revert their costs to that of normal. Any player created mods that actually use expensive mode will likely have to be updated to work.
actually it depends on how you implement it. you might say "recipe.expensive = nil" so recipes shall always fall to "recipe.normal" or just recipe itself which is not a problem at all. but then why remove expensive mode because it is already not affecting majority of the players (I am assuming this, expensive mode players are little).

but it might also be implemented as "recipe.expensive" is removed completely to avoid all hassle it has created/might create. expansion might change recipe prototypes (it might have breaking changes I suppose? it is a big version change so any change might happen I guess), maybe devs shall go into such a drastic path, completely scrapping the "recipe.expensive and recipe.normal" properties, making them unrecognized at prototypes. if this is the case, then mods shall be broken (if they touch "recipe.expensive" property for example). that was my question actually, if this approach is decided.

I do not care about achievements, but some people definitely do so it is another topic. I just do not mind how it is solved there.

so basically question is about backward compatibility as of today vs the version without expensive mode, especially about prototypes.

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Re: Remove Expensive Mode

Post by FuryoftheStars »

rhynex wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:59 pm
actually it depends on how you implement it. you might say "recipe.expensive = nil" so recipes shall always fall to "recipe.normal" or just recipe itself which is not a problem at all. but then why remove expensive mode because it is already not affecting majority of the players (I am assuming this, expensive mode players are little).

but it might also be implemented as "recipe.expensive" is removed completely to avoid all hassle it has created/might create. expansion might change recipe prototypes (it might have breaking changes I suppose? it is a big version change so any change might happen I guess), maybe devs shall go into such a drastic path, completely scrapping the "recipe.expensive and recipe.normal" properties, making them unrecognized at prototypes. if this is the case, then mods shall be broken (if they touch "recipe.expensive" property for example). that was my question actually, if this approach is decided.

I do not care about achievements, but some people definitely do so it is another topic. I just do not mind how it is solved there.

so basically question is about backward compatibility as of today vs the version without expensive mode, especially about prototypes.
Honestly, I expect the complete removal of the .normal and .expensive properties, as that is in and of itself what causes the problems for modders because some recipes have and use them, and some don't.

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Re: Remove Expensive Mode

Post by Deadlock989 »

rhynex wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:59 pm
so basically question is about backward compatibility as of today vs the version without expensive mode, especially about prototypes.
What I'm getting from the rare and guarded snippets revealed here and there, and this new development around normal/expensive recipes, is that for 1.2 (which is going to be the core version of Factorio that supports the completely optional DLC mod whether you buy it or not) all bets are off and we are taking the Oxygen Not Included road whereby the release of a DLC pack breaks everything that came before it and the modding scene will take months/years to get back to square one. In the specific case of normal/expensive, I'm tempted to say that it's completely worth it.

There won't be any normal or expensive property of recipes any more and everything will always be in the "root" of the prototype, so if you have written code which expects or requires normal or expensive properties to exist in specific vanilla instances of recipes, it will break, but you probably shouldn't have done that in the first place since any other mod can change them first. I may have misunderstood the limited information provided.

If you have made a mod which is entirely built around the vanilla expensive mode recipe setting and you want to continue on that road for some reason, I guess we may get the option to force requirement of the "expensive mod", which also raises the interesting possibility that we might also block it as a conflict.

There's also nothing to stop people continuing to make mods for 1.1 if they want to.
Mernom wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:03 pm
Edit: Actually is there any mod out there that takes advantage of technology difficulty? I don't think I've seen any.
I've never seen it used either but I have spent time answering "bug reports" from punters complaining that my mods don't support the mapgen technology difficulty setting (the "difficulty" dropdown, not the cost multiplier), they were no doubt surprised to learn that technology difficulty does precisely nothing in a vanilla game either.
"If Stalin had a good writeup on programming, would linking that be dangerous?"

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