Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

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Peter34
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Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

Post by Peter34 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:54 am

Right now, when you plonk down anyting, it starts working immediately.

Why does it have to be so?

And what are the benefits if the game is changed so that it is no longer so? So that instead most buildings and Turrets, when plonked down, have a delay of a significant number of seconds before they actually start working, start doing their job?



I can see two benefits.

1. The first is that the Turret Creep strategy, to attack Biter/Spitter nests, becomes much less viable. When I employ it, I usually advance 9-12 tiles per Turret cluster, measured between nearest Turrets. That's using Gun Turrets, and with Laser Turrets it's more likely to be somewhat longer (say, 14-19 tiles). Now you'd have to do it much more slowly and gradually

2. It opens up for yet another axis of differentiation, a numerical way for something to be different from another thing ("I can run at 22 km/h, Bob can only run at 16 km/h, but he has 20% more HP than I do").

This means that you can have Techs to Research that reduce the Post-Placement Deployment delay of certain building types, for instance Gun Turrets and Laser Turrets could both start at 15 seconds, but there's a Tech that reduces the Deployment time for Gun Turrets to 10 seconds, and another more expensive Tech that reduces it by 4 more seconds to 6 seconds, whereas Laser Turrets are stuck with 15s. Hah. Those b*stards deserve some nerfing!

Also, as another axis of differentiation, it can reinforce a character class or character skill concept if that gets added to the game, in that different character skills gives you Deployment Time bonuses to different building types. For instance, Assembly Machines might have a huge Deployment Delay, of say 60 or even 90 seconds, before they start working, but the Factory Worker Character Class slashes that by 5/6 to 10 or 15 seconds. Or if there is a Factory worker Skill it'll reduce that by 1/6 per Skill Level to a minimum of 5/6.

Labs and Sensors (not just Radars but also other Sensor types added to the game later) could likewise have a massive Deployment Delay but which is reduced by a Scientist Character Class or a Scientist skill.

Some items should have no delay. Power Poles, for instance. It doen't really make sense for there to be a delay there. I mean you could have a 1s delay but why bother? If delays aren't significant then they're just a pointless complication. 1s delay is pointless, 60s isn't.

Inserters should only have a delay of a very few seconds, which again invokes the same principle: If it's such a small delay, why not drop the idea and set their Post-Deployment Delay to 0s?

It's really for major buildings, Assembly Machines, Labs, Radars and other Sensors, Mines, Turrets, Solar Panels, Steam Engines, Furnaces and Burners.

And frankly, given how rarely Steam Engines and Boilers get plonked down, it may not be worth the bother to give them a delay. I think they should have one, as a matter of principle, but... *shrug*. It's not important, unlike the more commonly used buildings and machines.

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Re: Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

Post by Koub » Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:57 am

It reminds me a suggestion I made on another thread, and I hae seen maybe a couple of times since then (the last paragraph is what you want to read) :

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 000#p59175

Both suggestions would fit decently together. But instead of a class bonus, i'd see a few research bonuses like there already are for weapon/turret damage/fire rate, stack bonus, ...
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Re: Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

Post by Peter34 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:45 am

It's quite possible that your suggestion lay in the back of my mind, in my subconscious, and inspired me. I certainly got the idea of buildings not working immediately when plonked down from somewhere.

I mean, I often get original ideas. But this one isn't original to me. I either got it from somewhere, or got heavy inspiration from one or two sources.

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Re: Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

Post by Nemoricus » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:41 pm

I'm strongly against any build deployment time. Why? It slows down experimentation and adds an unnecessary time tax to resdesigning your base. Furthermore, if the deployment time is short enough to not pose an issue, it's irrelevant because it already takes time to build a complete base layout and for items to move on belts.

The one exception is for turrets, and then only a potential way to reduce the effectiveness of a turret creep strategy.

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Re: Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

Post by ssilk » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:08 pm

For the first reason we can have many other game-mechanics, which is much more effective. For the turret creep, the devs planned a while ago something like unplaceable ground around a biter nest. Much more effective idea, than a delay when placing.

And for the second I don't see the point: Why? Why is this useful?

So in end-effect we have the big question: Where is the game-value in this suggestion? I see only negative effects, cause I need to wait more and think more. :)
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Re: Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

Post by Koub » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:19 pm

Well ... I see it as aesthetic value. I mean, why fancy graphics if factorio 0.1 had good graphics enough to see what's going on ? Why animations where static pictures are enough to create a factory ? Because eye cady, that's why :)
To feel more immersed, also.
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Re: Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

Post by ssilk » Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:58 pm

Ah, you are one of those, who like Command&Conquer built animations. :) I didn't. I hated them, cause I needed to wait and could not do much meanwhile. Well, I think there is nothing against a half or 1, maybe 2 seconds to wait between building up and working. What would really annoy me is to wait - hm - more than 5 secs.

Taste... :)

But suggestions here are in my opinion not taste.
I try to measure the worth of an suggestion with the gameplay-value it adds to the game. That are relatively obvious reasons.

Maybe a good graphics can help, if some part of the game is not so well done. We have hundrets, no, thousands of bad games out there, which do exactly that. But it's like with music: a good song is just a good song, no matter, if it is played on bones from a Kangaroo or with the full Vienna orchestra. :)
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Re: Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

Post by Peter34 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:40 am

ssilk wrote:For the first reason we can have many other game-mechanics, which is much more effective. For the turret creep, the devs planned a while ago something like unplaceable ground around a biter nest. Much more effective idea, than a delay when placing.

And for the second I don't see the point: Why? Why is this useful?

So in end-effect we have the big question: Where is the game-value in this suggestion? I see only negative effects, cause I need to wait more and think more. :)
The game-value is that it differentiates player characters based on what Class they are, or what Skills they've learned.

Single-player, the experience of playing as a Soldier can then be significantly different from the experience of playing a Miner, an Engineer or a Scientist. And in multi-player you get different combinations, such as for instance two players where both are Soldiers, vs a game where one is a Scientist and the other is a Miner.

Or if Skills are implemented instead of Classes, it'll be the same, just in a more flexible way.

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Re: Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

Post by ssilk » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:43 am

Peter34 wrote:The game-value is that it differentiates player characters based on what Class they are, or what Skills they've learned.
There are many more differentiations possible. This is not the only possibility, it is just one option out of many. I see not much added game-value...

It would change, if one class would need place 1 second and the other ... maybe 10. But how should that work?
a) I would never play this class, cause it doesn't make sense. Factorio is a construction game.
b) And when I would: will I just place it an wait 10 secs and then the device suddenly begins to work (with some fancy animation)? How does that make sense? I still can place then as many items as I want, there is not really a big difference, if it takes 1 or 10 (or even 100 secs). I just need to wait, until it begins to work...
c) or do I need to "construct" the device (hold the mouse-button, keep within reach), until it is finished? How annoying would that be?
d) I would find other ways, just rush to construction bots and then lets the bots built all. (have you thought about, that they cannot have this difference? They must work equally for all players)

I keep my opinion:
- not very game-relevant
- very small added game-value
- adding another (small) complexity
- adds annoying waiting time
- who will care the difference? And if they care it, it will be really annoying. :)
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Re: Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

Post by Peter34 » Sat May 09, 2015 6:57 am

No.

The whole point of RPG mechanics, as a concept, is that it forces the player to choose between A or B or C. If it's based on researching Techs or on building Tools or Machines, then you will eventually research/build all of A, B and C, the only question being the order you do it in, if you want A more urgently, or B or C.

RPG mechanics, as a concept, differ, in that you are forced to make a character creation or character advancement choice, a choice that has permanent consequences for the rest of the game.

It may be the case that you are fundamentally opposed to RPG mechanics, but not all game players are, and the devs even have a thread, in one of the subforums, specifically about RPG mechanics. So ti appears as if they are not opposd to the concept.

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Re: Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

Post by ssilk » Sat May 09, 2015 10:27 am

Peter34 wrote:The whole point of RPG mechanics
Image
RPG-mechanics?
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Re: Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

Post by bobingabout » Sat May 09, 2015 11:31 pm

Peter34 wrote:The whole point of RPG mechanics, as a concept, is that it forces the player to choose between A or B or C.
I must disagree. This is an outdated concept that more modern RPG games are slowly working out of.

Elder Scrolls V, Skyrim. Is this not an RPG? you can unlock every skill, and use every item reguardless of your playstyle and class, the only thing that you effectively can't unlock all of is the Health/Magicka/Endurance, since you choose to raise 1 of any of these 3 every time you level up.

if you want to look at more MMOs styles... Most mainstream RPGs will give you options like Respec for example, or multiple roles that you can swap between at any time. Rift is a fairly decent example of this, there are 4 classes in total, and each of these give you a choice of 3 souls from a list of 10 or so. There are so many damn sub-classes you can make within these souls that any char can be pretty much anything.
Other RPG games... like Dragon Quest 9 (one I remember playing on my DS) gives you the option to change your class at will.

It's another thing with the latest addition to char traits in StarTrek Online too. Although your initial choice gives you the choice between Tactical, Engineering, or Science, and this can never change, you can choose any starship so the space side of your gameplay can be any class. But the new addition is the Specialisation skills. you gain one skill point per level after 50. Once you hit 60 you stop leveling up in number, but still gain experience, and a skill point every time you fill your level bar, and if you play long enough can unlock enough specialisation points to unlock all skills.
This is like the idea of Factorio, where given enough time you can reasearch everything.

I honestly think that the future of RPG games is that you choose a race(if multiple are available), and a faction(if multiple are available), then just go with it, gaining skills, and creating your own dynamic class at will. Very similar to that Skyrim example. But if you play long enough, you can unlock everything.
Last edited by bobingabout on Mon May 11, 2015 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

Post by Koub » Sun May 10, 2015 6:59 am

I agree with bob. The first MMORPG I played was T4C, and loved it for the absolute freedom in evolving your character, as there was no class. I also loved Rift for the infinite possibilities of dynamic respeccing with the 6 (et the time I was playing) roles, which allowed you to switch between tank, support, dps, close-combat, ranged, heal, ...

If there was some "roles", I'd see suits you could wear that accelerates certain types of operations. Suits that would have to be crafted for example. but we have got really very far from original topic. If we want to continue speaking RPG, I'll split the thread and we'll be free to continue the discussion.
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Re: Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

Post by Peter34 » Sun May 10, 2015 4:18 pm

Skill points gained and allocated at level-up still forces the player to make choices, and unless the game continues for a very, very long time, you won't be able to max all the skills, meaning the game gets replay value that way. For instance, only Skyrim fanatics play games that last so long that they are able to get all the Skill Perks in a single game (and even then I think you need to use a skill uncapper mod).

Using that approach in a multiplayer scenario, e.g. where you gain 1 SP after each 60 minutes of playing without dying, and a multitude of skills to choose from and level up, you're still forced to make choices.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that the concept of forcing players is always evil or even wrong. Sometimes it's very, very good game design.

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Re: Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

Post by bobingabout » Mon May 11, 2015 12:13 am

Peter34 wrote:Skill points gained and allocated at level-up still forces the player to make choices, and unless the game continues for a very, very long time, you won't be able to max all the skills, meaning the game gets replay value that way. For instance, only Skyrim fanatics play games that last so long that they are able to get all the Skill Perks in a single game (and even then I think you need to use a skill uncapper mod).
It's part of the game now that you can reset any skill you've trained to 100 back down to minimum, then level it up again. This lets you gain more level up experience to gain more skill points to unlock all the traits.
Peter34 wrote:you're still forced to make choices.
And in factorio, the choice is which do I research first. The only difference between Factorio and Skyrim is that it gets harder to gain a point in Skyrim. But it always costs the same to keep making more science packs in Factorio. Keep playing either long enough and you can unlock everything.
Peter34 wrote:Don't make the mistake of assuming that the concept of forcing players is always evil or even wrong. Sometimes it's very, very good game design.
We're not saying it's wrong, we're just saying that it isn't essential to make an RPG an RPG.
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Delay to place military buildings

Post by guisenne » Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:52 pm

The placement of military building are to much powerfull turning to easy to invade the enemy bases with few towers and ammo, i think in a delay around to 3 or 5 seconds

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Re: Post-Place Deployment delay for placed buildings (& Turrets)

Post by Koub » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:26 am

[Koub] Merged topic into older identical topic.
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