Conveyor belts optional using electricity

[Hexicube]

Ikr it is so sad i was hoping that the community would get out of their thinking, For example what if the devs started out with the first inserter being really slow (like the first conveyor belt) but it doesnt run on any energy and is magic, and then a few months later after all the players got used to the idea of the magic inserter the devs wanted to make it need coal to run, at first everyone would probably act the same as they are now about the conveyor belts, being like "But... but thats another coal line that i have to make in early game and i dont want to do that, i like it being magic." but then the devs just implemented it anyway and some people got mad and quit but then another few months later all that dies down and the new players (and probably the old players that quit because as a great meme once said "one does not just quit factorio") that get the game cant possibly think how it was to have the first inserter not needing coal. So this is what i hope happens with the conveyor belts that this will get implemented (the conveyor belts needing energy) and every one will get used to the idea and actually laugh that they once thought that it would be blasphemy to have conveyor belts that required energy.

Can you not generalize about what the general populace would think? I'd complain about that first inserter not using energy since it would be uncharacteristic of that inserter (all others use energy). All belts use no energy, therefore it's perfectly reasonable. If only yellow belts didn't need energy, it would be an odd jump to red belts.

The complaint might not be to make it use energy, it could be changed to be a ramp with a severely limited throughput (maybe an item every 2 seconds) and only able to insert, but I'd still complain about it in that form.

[MalcolmCooks]

Can you not generalize about what the general populace would think?

Yes, please.

[ssilk]

To help this discussion I added a poll: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21921 Poll: Should belts use energy (and Offshore Pumps etc...)

[DrEthan]

Ikr it is so sad i was hoping that the community would get out of their thinking, For example what if the devs started out with the first inserter being really slow (like the first conveyor belt) but it doesnt run on any energy and is magic, and then a few months later after all the players got used to the idea of the magic inserter the devs wanted to make it need coal to run, at first everyone would probably act the same as they are now about the conveyor belts, being like "But... but thats another coal line that i have to make in early game and i dont want to do that, i like it being magic." but then the devs just implemented it anyway and some people got mad and quit but then another few months later all that dies down and the new players (and probably the old players that quit because as a great meme once said "one does not just quit factorio") that get the game cant possibly think how it was to have the first inserter not needing coal. So this is what i hope happens with the conveyor belts that this will get implemented (the conveyor belts needing energy) and every one will get used to the idea and actually laugh that they once thought that it would be blasphemy to have conveyor belts that required energy.

Can you not generalize about what the general populace would think? I'd complain about that first inserter not using energy since it would be uncharacteristic of that inserter (all others use energy). All belts use no energy, therefore it's perfectly reasonable. If only yellow belts didn't need energy, it would be an odd jump to red belts.

The complaint might not be to make it use energy, it could be changed to be a ramp with a severely limited throughput (maybe an item every 2 seconds) and only able to insert, but I'd still complain about it in that form.

I am only generalizing because most of the people who have complained about this fall into the people i talked about, they are saying it would be bad because it is different.

[DrEthan]

we arnt saying that you would have to give energy to every single conveyor belt we are saying that you just have to power one end of the conveyor belt for it to work. (atleast i am not)

Which doesn't change anything I was saying. The Problems with that have already been stated by others here, so this idea would still decrease playmability, which is much more important than immersion.

how would it decrease play ability?

[DrEthan]

Conveyor belts would require such a minute amount of power that it would be pointless to even include such a system. According to wikipedia a certain 17km belt in constant use (1 ton every 4 seconds) is using 1.8MW to power the entire belt. Judging by the player model, each belt piece in game is probably a meter long (if not less), and assuming a similar power cost (a full but not backed up belt) any given piece would need just over 0.1W. A mega-base would need maybe 2kW (assumed 20k belts, probably way less), which is a sneeze in the general direction of a wind turbine in comparison to everything else.

In other words, it's entirely reasonable to assume that the belts are powered by built-in solar panels and have tiny batteries (or flywheels) to manage the night, given the level of power produced by the 9m^2 solar panels.

then why should you care if it gets added or not?

[ssilk]

how would it decrease play ability?

Please see: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21058#p133065 :

Ok, I explain it a bit more.

The miners needs energy to run. If they don't get energy they don't produce coal. Which is a vicious circle - of course.

Now imagine, that the belts also need energy to tun.
How will you restart your factory once it runs out of energy? Currently it is a problem, but even a beginner is after a while able to handle that situation, because the belts don't need energy.

Otherwise imagine, how will you bring that much coal to the burners, that the factory runs so long with so much energy, that the belts bring the coal again themselves? That is really, really difficult after early game and without solar panels. It's frustrating and it's not a good game, for a beginner it's a very bad surprise.

The same logic is with the water.

In other words: If belts need energy, and you run out of energy in the middle game before solar, you will have really a big problem.

And Dr. Ethan: Please avoid double postings.

[MeduSalem]

In other words: If belts need energy, and you run out of energy in the middle game before solar, you will have really a big problem.

If we imagine that there is a motor attached to a belt then the motor could also be fuel powered (wood, coal, solid fuel) in the beginning, but it would basically be slow and tedious.

Upgrading to electric motor would mean faster belts (maybe even module slots in the motor to render fast/express belts redundant items which could be removed from the game due to achieving the same with Speed Modules), but also the risk of belts failing during power out.


But that said I would still be for an expert mode in which several game mechanics that are currently "simplified" are extended with upkeep elements. If then someone wants to punish himself further he knows the deal otherwise he wouldn't select the expert mode.

[DrEthan]

And Dr. Ethan: Please avoid double postings.

What do you mean double posting? did i click post twice or something?

[Hexicube]

Can you not generalize about what the general populace would think? I'd complain about that first inserter not using energy since it would be uncharacteristic of that inserter (all others use energy). All belts use no energy, therefore it's perfectly reasonable. If only yellow belts didn't need energy, it would be an odd jump to red belts.

The complaint might not be to make it use energy, it could be changed to be a ramp with a severely limited throughput (maybe an item every 2 seconds) and only able to insert, but I'd still complain about it in that form.

I am only generalizing because most of the people who have complained about this fall into the people i talked about, they are saying it would be bad because it is different.

Uh, no, I'm complaining because it would potentially cause a lot of UPS issues in larger bases with no gameplay benefit to solve an immersion issue that seems to not affect that many people.

[ske]

In other words: If belts need energy, and you run out of energy in the middle game before solar, you will have really a big problem.

If we imagine that there is a motor attached to a belt then the motor could also be fuel powered (wood, coal, solid fuel) in the beginning, but it would basically be slow and tedious.

Upgrading to electric motor would mean faster belts (maybe even module slots in the motor to render fast/express belts redundant items which could be removed from the game due to achieving the same with Speed Modules), but also the risk of belts failing during power out.


But that said I would still be for an expert mode in which several game mechanics that are currently "simplified" are extended with upkeep elements. If then someone wants to punish himself further he knows the deal otherwise he wouldn't select the expert mode.

I came here to post exactly THIS. And I want to expand on it.

I suggest the following motor types:

1) Sterling burner
- Runs on anything that burns e.g. wood, coal.
2) Steam engine
- Requires hot water like the power generator does now.
3) Diesel engine
- Requires gasoline. (=Light oil or Gas?)
4) Electric motor/generator
- Converts between electrical an mechanical power

Make the items have slots. Make the slots take 0 on N items.

Example: the basic inserter
* has a slot for a motor,
* communication electronics module,
* filter electronics module.

Motor slot usage:
* Put in no module and it shows the red blinking motor sign like the power sign is now.
* Put in a sterling burner and it is a burner inserter, slow but doesn't need electricity.
* It wouldn't take a steam/diesel engine because it lacks a fluid port.
* Put in one electric engine and it will be a normal inserter.
* Put in ten electric engines* and it will be a fast inserter.

With these slots we get the functionality of burner/normal/fast/smart inserter combined.

With the long inserter, you get each functionality in long.

Example: belts

For the belts it would be similar. You get a special building which supplies some belts (how that supply is done exactly is to be discussed separately). This housing takes some motors, maybe even two motor slots for sterling burner (=backup) and electric/steam/diesel as main power source. With the sterling you get normal speed, with the more powerful motors you get faster speed.

Example: Power generator

The power generator takes one burner/diesel/steam engine as power source and some (big?) electric engine as electrical outlet. This also immediately gives us small power generators that work without steam and diesel power generators.

*: Instead of ten electric engines there could be an item like: "big electric engine".

[Yinan]

how would it decrease play ability?

Please see: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21058#p133065 :

I did not write that...

[daniel34]

And Dr. Ethan: Please avoid double postings.

What do you mean double posting? did i click post twice or something?

You should avoid making two or more posts in the same thread in succession (you posted 3 posts within 10 minutes without any other users posting inbetween).
It is recommended you edit your last post instead.

[MalcolmCooks]

I have an idea.
Belts will always be next to a drill or inserter, right? Since the amount of energy that the belts would actually require would be minute, as mentioned earlier, would it be reasonable to have the belts siphon some power, or be mechanically driven by, another entity that they are placed next to? In game, this would happen just simply, that the belts would not run if they were not placed next to something they can be powered by. This would actually be no different from current game mechanics, apart from a tiny increase of power consumption, and adding a drain to burner inserters if there is not something else that could power the belt. But it would not appear that the belts work by magic, because if power was lost to the area, if there was no coal in your burner items, or if you placed belts on their own, the belts would not run.
Is it true that a belt must always be next to, at the least, an inserter? Long-handed inserters must be placed away from the belt, but is there any case where it is necessary to have only long-handed inserters?

[MeduSalem]

I came here to post exactly THIS. And I want to expand on it.

I suggest the following motor types:

1) Sterling burner
- Runs on anything that burns e.g. wood, coal.
2) Steam engine
- Requires hot water like the power generator does now.
3) Diesel engine
- Requires gasoline. (=Light oil or Gas?)
4) Electric motor/generator
- Converts between electrical an mechanical power

Make the items have slots. Make the slots take 0 on N items.

Example: the basic inserter
* has a slot for a motor,
* communication electronics module,
* filter electronics module.

Motor slot usage:
* Put in no module and it shows the red blinking motor sign like the power sign is now.
* Put in a sterling burner and it is a burner inserter, slow but doesn't need electricity.
* It wouldn't take a steam/diesel engine because it lacks a fluid port.
* Put in one electric engine and it will be a normal inserter.
* Put in ten electric engines* and it will be a fast inserter.

With these slots we get the functionality of burner/normal/fast/smart inserter combined.

With the long inserter, you get each functionality in long.

Example: belts

For the belts it would be similar. You get a special building which supplies some belts (how that supply is done exactly is to be discussed separately). This housing takes some motors, maybe even two motor slots for sterling burner (=backup) and electric/steam/diesel as main power source. With the sterling you get normal speed, with the more powerful motors you get faster speed.

Example: Power generator

The power generator takes one burner/diesel/steam engine as power source and some (big?) electric engine as electrical outlet. This also immediately gives us small power generators that work without steam and diesel power generators.

*: Instead of ten electric engines there could be an item like: "big electric engine".

Funny. I had exactly the same idea of making the "motors"/"engines" like modules that can be inserted into various items, including:

• Belts
• Inserters
• Mining Drills
• Assemblers
• Furnaces
• Pump Jacks
• Refineries
• Chemical Plants
• Labs
• Beacons
• Radars
• Steam Engines (the other way around... electric engine modules work as generators)
• Small Pumps
• Offshore Pumps
• Locomotives
• Tank
• Car
• Flying Robot Frames
• Rocket Silo
• Gun Turrets
• Laser Turrets
• Armor
• Exoskeleton
• Personal Laser Defense

Some of them may allow "hot-swapping" between certain types of "motors"/"engines", some of them may consume the module (like robots for example, they require a built-in electric engine because I would see no way to make them swapable)

I would also say that electric motors should be the easiest to build, easier than diesel engines. I never understood why an Electric Engine unit requires a Diesel Engine unit in the first place.

So in items there would be "motor module slots" and the "special module slots" for Speed/Productivity/Efficiency Modules would be tied to Electric Motors... 1 Special Module slot for each Electric Motor inside the machine which allows further customization.

Example: An Assembly Machine might have 4 slots for motors. If you insert 4 electric motors enables you to have 4 slots for special modules as well, which matches the functionality of Assembler 3s.

Example: You could also put a Diesel Motor or Sterling Motor into the Assembler and power it by regular fuel if you want to. It could be interesting for the very beginning of the game that you have to power everything with sterling motors, even the damn assemblers. Meaning you could automate things before you start using electricity or even miss out on electricity completely and build a complete factory solely running on coal/soid fuel etc (which would be quite interesting actually)

Maybe we should take this into a new, more general Idea/Suggestion Thread that explains why this could be fun and help reducing the item clutter (because then there would only be 1 type of belt, 1 type of assembler, 1 type of mining drill, 1 type of inserter, etc needed and the rest, aka upgraded instances, can be done with motor modules and special module slots).

[DrEthan]

And Dr. Ethan: Please avoid double postings.

What do you mean double posting? did i click post twice or something?

You should avoid making two or more posts in the same thread in succession (you posted 3 posts within 10 minutes without any other users posting inbetween).
It is recommended you edit your last post instead.

i was just responding to what people said and that is why i included different quotations at the top and talked about them.

[Yinan]

But you can do that in a single post.
No need to make three separate posts for that.

[ske]

...

Yep.

I would also say that electric motors should be the easiest to build, easier than diesel engines. I never understood why an Electric Engine unit requires a Diesel Engine unit in the first place.

* Small electric engines with e.g. 1kW should be cheap.
* Big electric engines with e.g. 100kW should be comparable to a diesel engine, price equivalent to 10 small electric engines.
(Not sure about accurate numbers but roughly that.)

So in items there would be "motor module slots" and the "special module slots" for Speed/Productivity/Efficiency Modules would be tied to Electric Motors... 1 Special Module slot for each Electric Motor inside the machine which allows further customization.

I like the slot idea. Only one basic assembler is required but could be upgraded in a lot of ways.

What I don't like is the idea of Speed/Efficiency and especially Productivity modules. Those are total unfounded black magic. Combine that with the aura towers an you're in Dreamland.

I think there need to be a different set of modules with different names which are required by recipies. E.g. a precision axis controller. Each item may have different recipies that depend on the number/type of motor and modules available.

Regarding the productivity module: Introducing scrap metal gives back the "productivity" without losing resources (or even gaining them from thin air). An assembly machine with only burner motors will produce gearwheels very slowly and produce an high amount of scrap.

* 3 Sterling burner motors: 4 plates, 4 seconds -> 1 gearwheel and 3 scrap.
* Upgrading to electric engines decreases the time to like 1 second but still the same scrap is produced.
* Adding 3 precision controllers improves the ratio. 4 plates, 1 second -> 3 gearwheels and 1 scrap.

(but this would be another topic for some other occasion)

...
Maybe we should take this into a new, more general Idea/Suggestion Thread that explains why this could be fun and help reducing the item clutter (because then there would only be 1 type of belt, 1 type of assembler, 1 type of mining drill, 1 type of inserter, etc needed and the rest, aka upgraded instances, can be done with motor modules and special module slots).

Agreed, do you like to combine our posts and start the topic?

[MeduSalem]

I like the slot idea. Only one basic assembler is required but could be upgraded in a lot of ways.

Exactly. With most items you would get the choice Sterling (Wood, Coal, Solid Fuel) or Diesel (Heavy/Light Oil, Petroleum Gas) or Electric motors/engines.

The Sterling/Diesel ones might be quite strong but don't necessarily require you to build a power plant.

Electric may enable Special Modules that influence further behavior but require Electricity and therefore a power plant. So they may suffer from Energy conversion loss because of Boiilers for Steam Engines only having 50% efficiency or you need huge solar/accumulator fields.

What I don't like is the idea of Speed/Efficiency and especially Productivity modules. Those are total unfounded black magic. Combine that with the aura towers an you're in Dreamland.

I think there need to be a different set of modules with different names which are required by recipies. E.g. a precision axis controller. Each item may have different recipies that depend on the number/type of motor and modules available.

Regarding the productivity module: Introducing scrap metal gives back the "productivity" without losing resources (or even gaining them from thin air). An assembly machine with only burner motors will produce gearwheels very slowly and produce an high amount of scrap.

* 3 Sterling burner motors: 4 plates, 4 seconds -> 1 gearwheel and 3 scrap.
* Upgrading to electric engines decreases the time to like 1 second but still the same scrap is produced.
* Adding 3 precision controllers improves the ratio. 4 plates, 1 second -> 3 gearwheels and 1 scrap.

(but this would be another topic for some other occasion)

In my opinion the Speed/Efficiency Modules aren't really that "magic" if done like below:

A Speed Module should push the Speed of the Electric Engine Module it is attached to, but at the downside of requiring more power to run in overdrive mode. (= Overclocking)
An Efficiency Module should reduce the power consumption of the Electric Engine Module it is attached to, but at the loss of Speed. (= Underclocking)

The problem are the Productivity Modules. I have my doubts about them myself... Always had because I never quite understood why they are there if we basically have infinite resources. It's like trying to cheat Infinity to have even more infinite items.

But if I had to change the Behavior of Productivity Modules I would make them work like Repair Packs/Ammunition with a little progress bar on the source item itself.

More productivity Modules consume the item stack slower and lesser productivity Modules consume the item stack faster. So The productivity Module basically changes the conversation ratio. The interesting part would be that the productivity could be negative then as well if a new Module does a "dirty job" for some reason.

Don't know if something like "scrap metal" would be a fun way to go about it because then there would basically scrap items for each of the intermediate items (all that allow productivity modules)... effectively causing more redundant items in the crafting/inventory menus.

But yeah, that is a topic of its own and there are already some out there in the balancing section, especially because Efficiency Modules don't have any downsides.

Agreed, do you like to combine our posts and start the topic?

Yepp, I can do it if you like. But if so I would create a bunch of quick concept pictures and maybe sketches too to make it more understandable for other people as well.

Update: Made the thread over here... viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21982

[MalcolmCooks]

I have an idea.
Belts will always be next to a drill or inserter, right? Since the amount of energy that the belts would actually require would be minute, as mentioned earlier, would it be reasonable to have the belts siphon some power, or be mechanically driven by, another entity that they are placed next to? In game, this would happen just simply, that the belts would not run if they were not placed next to something they can be powered by. This would actually be no different from current game mechanics, apart from a tiny increase of power consumption, and adding a drain to burner inserters if there is not something else that could power the belt. But it would not appear that the belts work by magic, because if power was lost to the area, if there was no coal in your burner items, or if you placed belts on their own, the belts would not run.
Is it true that a belt must always be next to, at the least, an inserter? Long-handed inserters must be placed away from the belt, but is there any case where it is necessary to have only long-handed inserters?

I'd still like some response on this
If the problem is just that the belts are apparantly magic and that ruins the immersion of the game, then does this solve it?