Swap input on chemical factory

[provet]

Joined (would be nice to have a bit better search before posting new, cause I found it with the first search) -- ßilk

I am thinking about chemical plants input sides (and oil refinery with advanced oil processing) and how the inputs (often a liquid or gas input and a water input) could be swapped by hold shift while placing the machine! This is only a minor change and more of a polish to the game.

[bobingabout]

I still think it should be possible to flip/swap inputs/outputs on fluid using/producing factories.

[SHiRKiT]

To be honest, I'd like it to remain as is. A huge part of Factorio's gameplay is figuring out small puzzles; little cookie-cutter patterns that are efficient. The fixed inputs serves to set the conditions of the puzzle. What does removing that add to the game?

Removing the need of an optional-but-obrigatory overlay over all buildings?

[immibis]

I still think it should be possible to flip/swap inputs/outputs on fluid using/producing factories.

I still think allowing any fluid into any input would be an easier, simpler, more convenient and more flexible option.

[patmo98]

+1 for this idea. Of the two, I'd rather have "smart inputs" that will automatically take what's needed, but the ability to mirror a building would work too.

[tux_mark_5]

+1 for manually allowing to rearrange/mirror inputs or to have "smart inputs".

[Nemoricus]

I still think it should be possible to flip/swap inputs/outputs on fluid using/producing factories.

I still think allowing any fluid into any input would be an easier, simpler, more convenient and more flexible option.

This is how I've always thought it should work, and I'm still in favor of it. It's just more intuitive.

[ssilk]

Hm. I'm not sure, if this is really possible/useful.

The question is: How and when should a chemical plant/assembly decide automatically, which is the right input type for which type of fluid? I'm quite unsure, no I'm really skeptical, if this should be decided automatically.

Think for example for the case, that I first build it on one way, and then I re-decide and build the fluids in the other direction. When should the input-logic decide: This is a wanted action and this is not wanted, it was just a mistake. When I can switch this by hand, I can fix the stuff easier, if I had build it wrong and now the wrong fluids are stuck in my system.

[Nemoricus]

Filling your pipes with the wrong liquid is a separate problem, and there's really no elegant way to empty a line of pipes that's full of the wrong liquid. Whether the plants have fixed or flexible inputs doesn't really change that.

What it does help is avoiding the problem of: Why isn't this working? Oh, I've got the pipes hooked up to the wrong inputs.

It should also be a very simple system, at least in theory. How easy it would really be depends on how the developers designed their game, but here's how I imagine it would go:

1. Is there a pipe attached to either of the inputs?
2. If yes, is there a liquid in that pipe?
3. If yes, is this a liquid that is used in the current recipe?
4. If yes, does the plant have less than its maximum store of that liquid?
5. If yes, remove liquid from the pipe and add it to the plant's stores.
6. Repeat for the other input.

[ssilk]

I'm really not sure with that. That would mean you can place two pipes (or more) with the same liquid inside and it still might work for some turns, when there was another liquid in the fluid-boxes before.

But in my opinion it cannot be, cause if fluid1 is available on input2 it cannot be taken also from input1! That makes no sense and will confuse new players even more.
Allowing that would otherwise give similar problems as with the furnaces, which processes wood and needs fuel for processing-energy (which can be also wood). For example, there are many more.

I always come back to a point, where I need to have fixed inputs for every fluid-type. There should be no complete automatic, cause it is not easy to explain, how it really works in every condition. This "fixing" had also the advantage, that in ALT-mode the icons of the fluids can be displayed above the inputs (and outputs). No, I really don't think, that it is a good idea to have that automatically switched.

My opinion
I think of simply hovering the inputs and press R until I reach an input-combination, which fits my needs. Would work also for the outputs. It could be semi-intelligent: If one fluid is already "laying" on the input-side (or output), it orders the number of possibilities you can switch through to that order, which matches first/makes most sense, but you can then switch also to combinations, which don't match yet. And if a modder wants, he can forbid that kind of switching. Or do really cool stuff with that switch mechanics.
For better accessibility there could be buttons when opening the device, which have the same function as pressing R and a describing text.
And if someone really wants, he can still create a modded version of this, which tries to do the described: look for the type of liquids and switch the input as long as it fits for the device. (But I'm sure, that this is not really needed. )

[Nemoricus]

I'm afraid that I don't see the problem you have. Sure, you can hook up two pipes with the same fluid in them to both inputs. If the plant needs two different fluids, of course it's going to stop working, because it's starved of one. But you can identify this problem by using the Alt view, since both input pipes will have the same fluid in them. Having smart inputs saves you the trouble of needing to manually swap the inputs.

Also, theory time. What happens when a hypothetical chemical plant is introduced that has three or more inputs? Let's say that it has three and a recipe uses water and oil as inputs. Would I need to toggle through all of the input arrangements to get to the one I want?

What about a recipe that requires three different inputs? Water, oil, and steam. That's six different input arrangements, and this would get worse with more inputs. Smart inputs like what I described would scale better, since the player doesn't have to worry about which pipe accepts what.

Sure, you can see what resource the plant needs that it's not getting with fixed/swappable inputs, but I think that's a problem with a solution that needs to be more general. In other words, every single building in the game should tell you why it's not working, not just chemical plants. I'm going to start a new topic for this since it goes further than just chemical plants.

[ssilk]

But you can identify this problem by using the Alt view, since both input pipes will have the same fluid in them.

Exactly. I cannot see, what's wrong.

Having smart inputs saves you the trouble of needing to manually swap the inputs.

I don't see any trouble with that. How many times would you need that in a game? 2 times? 5 times? The rest can be copied via blueprint, or via shift-click-copy.

Also, theory time. What happens when a hypothetical chemical plant is introduced that has three or more inputs? Let's say that it has three and a recipe uses water and oil as inputs. Would I need to toggle through all of the input arrangements to get to the one I want?

Come on... that are 5 rotations in the worst case. How much rotations do you need to build rails?

Sure, you can see what resource the plant needs that it's not getting with fixed/swappable inputs, but I think that's a problem with a solution that needs to be more general. In other words, every single building in the game should tell you why it's not working, not just chemical plants. I'm going to start a new topic for this since it goes further than just chemical plants.

Well, good idea, please look about for this:
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=3674
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=3984

[tux_mark_5]

Come on... that are 5 rotations in the worst case. How much rotations do you need to build rails?

Curved rail placement is the worst and I really hope the devs do something to make it easier to place these rails or at least to more quickly select an appropriate one.
Therefore the rail placement shouldn't be used as an excuse to add rotating inputs, because rotating configurations when there are more than 4 options is just not a good idea.

[ssilk]

Make a better suggestion for that (not very important) detail, but don't just say "uh, no, that's not good".

[freyr_666]

A way to change the liquid inputs of refineries and Chemical plant



If i can change thats inputs of chemical plants, or refinery or the outputs of refinery on the recipe window or otherwise will be much easy to put that factory

[DaveMcW]

will be much easy to put that factory

I think the devs picked the most annoying liquid configuration on purpose.

[MeduSalem]

I think the devs picked the most annoying liquid configuration on purpose.

They really did... I swear I have this feeling everytime I try to come up with a better solution for the refineries.

Swapping them would be enough for chemical plants. For refinieres I also think swapping around the middle axis would suffice. Light Oil can stay where it is, but at least Heavy Oil and Petroleum Gas should be exchangeable with each other.

[Factoruser]

The output could stay unalterable. It should be from left to right ("watching direction") in the order of materials i.e. water/steam, crude oil, heavy oil, light oil, petroleum gas, lubricant, sulphuric acid.

Annotation: the sulphuric acid should come at the last place in the GUI because it's the last obtainable fluid in the game. - Every item should be in the place of how it is planned to be researched...

The input should be smart, resp. indifferent, accepting any fluid that is required. If you are connecting two times a water pipe, you may not get light oil cracking of course then...

[ssilk]

I joined that now to this thread, cause it is also already mentioned in FREQUENTLY SUGGESTED IDEAS.

The input should be smart, resp. indifferent, accepting any fluid that is required. If you are connecting two times a water pipe, you may not get light oil cracking of course then...

I'm not sure, if that is a good idea. There are flaws. See discussion on previous page: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 4&start=20

But in general I'm for this, cause I had lately the problem to build a refinery, without refinery researched yet. I cannot remember the right order of input and output (ok, it's in the wiki, but didn't want to search for it) and in the end I need to wait, until it was researched, before I could continue.

[ssilk]

Userstory: Enable that the input/output order of fluid-device (refinery, chemical plant) can be changed.
Prerequisites: Unclear, if there are not completely different plans. See copy-paste-rotion for blueprints.
Game-value: Enables to build more dense, nicer, more clear. This is also a prerequisite for https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=7262 Copy-Paste orientation for liquid entrance
Developer-costs: Seems to be simple, if no automated swapping is implemented.
User-opinions: Clear, about the swapping. Unclear, how this swapping should happen. Automation would be useful, but could produce nice flaws in gameplay.