Cliff explosives

[Tinyboss]

Would you have been negatively effected if cliff explosives were unlocked on Nauvis?

It's not the right question. It's about the intended experience, and they've been pretty clear about what that is. Especially with all the work that went into improving Nauvis cliffs, which IMO was very successful, I completely understand their position on it.

You have the tools to turn down the cliffs on Nauvis or anywhere else. Why isn't that sufficient?

[quineotio]

Would you have been negatively effected if cliff explosives were unlocked on Nauvis?

It's not the right question. It's about the intended experience, and they've been pretty clear about what that is. Especially with all the work that went into improving Nauvis cliffs, which IMO was very successful, I completely understand their position on it.

You have the tools to turn down the cliffs on Nauvis or anywhere else. Why isn't that sufficient?

It's a valid question, and you're missing the point. I'm not complaining about the existence of cliffs. As I said in the OP, Nauvis was fine, and I'm ok with cliff explosives being late in the Nauvis tech tree.

What is the "intended experience"? Are you supposed to have cliff explosives on Fulgora and Gleba? You can have cliff explosives on Fulgora and Gleba... if you do Vulcanus first. But what if I don't want to do Vulcanus first?

As I said in the OP, why not make the cliffs on Vulcanus require Vulcanus specific research to be able to destroy, and give normal cliff explosives earlier? The only thing this would change is whether or not you have them if you don't go to Vulcanus first.

What is the downside?

[Tinyboss]

People hate cliffs

No, a few people hate cliffs, very very loudly.

[Tinyboss]

What is the "intended experience"? Are you supposed to have cliff explosives on Fulgora and Gleba? You can have cliff explosives on Fulgora and Gleba... if you do Vulcanus first. But what if I don't want to do Vulcanus first?

Then you don't have cliff explosives available on whichever planet(s) you do prior to Vulcanus. The run and the challenges in it will be very different depending on which order you travel in. That's the intended experience, and it's great gameplay.

[quineotio]

What is the "intended experience"? Are you supposed to have cliff explosives on Fulgora and Gleba? You can have cliff explosives on Fulgora and Gleba... if you do Vulcanus first. But what if I don't want to do Vulcanus first?

Then you don't have cliff explosives available on whichever planet(s) you do prior to Vulcanus.

That is my point. I think you should have them, because it is really annoying to not have them, and it's really annoying to feel forced into a particular path. There isn't any other tech in the game that makes me feel this way. Everything else feels like a valid choice and an upgrade, whereas locking cliff explosives to Vulcanus feels like I'm arbitrarily being denied a basic tool.

[Tinyboss]

I think we understand each other. The last thing I'll say is that you only feel forced because cliffs are such a big deal for you specifically. You're not the only one, but I don't think a large proportion of players think this way. But I do completely understand your points, given that you DO hate cliffs that much.

[quineotio]

I think we understand each other. The last thing I'll say is that you only feel forced because cliffs are such a big deal for you specifically. You're not the only one, but I don't think a large proportion of players think this way. But I do completely understand your points, given that you DO hate cliffs that much.

I don't hate cliffs. I hate not having cliff explosives until I've finished Vulcanus.

I see no upside to the current situation, and the only possible downside I can think of to my proposed change is that it may be confusing to new players if they bring clilff explosives to Vulcanus and they don't work there. But this isn't much of a downside, because presumably you'd be making clliff explosives later anyway, so the worst case scenario is that you bring them, find out you can't use them, and they sit in a chest for a while.

[Sworn]

Same, each planet should have its own cliff explosives and landfill. Then one unlocks the ultimate cliff explosive and foundation at the last planet, that can be used anywhere.

As I also suggested here: 120175

[Sworn]

Not the issue with the cliff or landfill, the issue of having it locked behind another planet tech.

Having each planet unlocks its own version of cliff explosive and landfill solves that for everyone, and one still can use the ultimate cliff explosive and foundation from the last planet that would work anywhere.

Vulcanos isn't end game, but it does annoy one wanting to build a reasonable big base before going to space. One can still deal with water on initial planet but, can't deal with lava or oil. Sure there was no lava or oil ocean on Navious, so that make sense to learn how to deal with them on each planet. For that own planet.

Sure, does this make it more complicated for the devs, yes. if we go for the 1 cliff/foundation, having it after X planet will always keep some happy, others sad. That simple.

[Tinyboss]

There are still very large areas with no cliffs. And where there are cliffs, they're typically in a line and you can just run your gigantic main bus under them and into the big clear space on the other side. Can you explain exactly how cliffs (with default world gen settings) prevent making big bases?

[Sworn]

Can you explain exactly how cliffs (with default world gen settings) prevent making big bases?

If one follow your line, might as well just remove the cliff explosive and landfill/foundation, as not having them doesn't prevent one from making anything.

It doesn't prevent anything, its annoying, cant paste any grid blueprint because of it. Yah first red, green science its fine, then you go blue, now you want to go big before going out, but not really, have to keep going "around" the cliffs

Its a forced change in the base game that became the issue, and exactly why people are complaining about it. Navious problems with rocks should be solved with navious tech, volcanos problem with lava should be solved with vulcanos tech, fulgora problem with oil should be solved with fulgora tech.

Which you kind of see on the elevated rail, so you can connect those small islands with all that oil, only in fulgora, then you get the upgraded version on vulcanos, but you can deal with fulgora problem with fulgora tech, which is exactly what it should be about.

which would be align if we got the upgraded version from cliff and landfill in Aquilo, but that is not quite how it is, is it?

Also those changes don't affect people that "like" cliffs and oil island, it affects only those who want to have a solution before they finish the game

[Tinyboss]

Navious problems with rocks should be solved with navious tech, volcanos problem with lava should be solved with vulcanos tech, fulgora problem with oil should be solved with fulgora tech.

I strongly disagree with this point. I think having problems on one planet whose answers are on another is excellent design. It means that each planet can play differently depending on which order you chose in that run. It improves replayability. IMO making it so that each planet is the same challenge whether you go first or last is a definite negative.

I am not saying this suggestion would make every planet play the same regardless of order, because there are other things you get on each planet that affect the others. But it moves it some way in that direction, which to me is a negative.

[Koub]

[Koub] Merged two topics asking for un locking the ability to destroy cliffs/ build landfill from/for each planet on the planet itself.

[Tinyboss]

It doesn't prevent anything, its annoying

Fair enough, you said annoying, not that it prevents building big. I apologize.

I personally do not mind being annoyed by something that has an answer later. Especially if there are other annoying things that are answered in other ways, and there's a tradeoff involved in which to pursue first. Being annoyed for a while and then having the solution is satisfying to me.

It's really going to come down to whether the devs feel like that's good or bad overall. I do not believe your opinion is wrong or less valid than mine.

[AileTheAlien]

Nauvis problems with rocks should be solved with Nauvis tech, volcanos problem with lava should be solved with vulcanos tech, fulgora problem with oil should be solved with fulgora tech.

So, what tech do we solve Aquilo with? Or the secret planet? Do we get assemblers made out of ice? IMO it also makes the game less boring, that different planets help you with each other, and it encourages you to actually leave your planet.

It doesn't prevent anything, its annoying, cant paste any grid blueprint because of it.

So if it's just annoying, why not change the cliff settings on your game? I play with biter expansion disabled, because they expand in ways that make no sense for ecology. (But apparently everyone else loves having endless waves of ever-increasing difficulty that kill your base. )

If one follow your line, might as well just remove the cliff explosive and landfill/foundation, as not having them doesn't prevent one from making anything.

They're meant to be an upgrade to work towards for late game? Why do you want to only build grid-based huge bases? This seems like you want megabases to be easier, right?

[Sworn]

Why do you want to only build grid-based huge bases? This seems like you want megabases to be easier, right?

Why you want everyone to play the way you play?


This means it can be played as it was before. That simple. Why it is so hard to understand that this imposed change, that was not how the game was. Going to space and going to new planet should be about new experiences, new tech, new enemies, which is. The only issue is changing a fundamental game mechanic to be now late game.

has nothing to do with megabase.

And honestly, why the hell one even tries to argue against it, consider it implemented, your own play style has not change, absolutely everything will be as is.
Consider for other people now, then have the option to play like they always had. So, one option denies some player base, other option has everyone happy.

[mmmPI]

This means it can be played as it was before.

Technically you still can play the "before".

You can play space age too, it's new, yay !

You can disable cliff in space age !

[Sworn]

Yah, sure you understand the meaning of the "technically"... It is definitely not as before.

What I "technically" think is that you also dislike the change, but only plays as is because it is forced. So, if cliff explosives get change back to Navious tech, then you will start to remove then as everyone else...

[mmmPI]

Yah, sure you understand the meaning of the "technically"... It is definitely not as before.

Sorry i mean you can "literally" play the game you used to play the 1.1.

Technically you do no want to play as before, you want to play the space age, but with only certain features... if only there were a settings to disable those .... x)

[Tinyboss]

your own play style has not change

But it does change. A compelling difference in play depending on which order we go to the planets is now gone. That reduces the variety and replayability.