Conveyor belts optional using electricity

[MeduSalem]

Upgrades: Maybe? Me for example would like to have a belt, where you can change the speed in very fine steps. That is of course a good reason.
Nothing against. But I think that is always an optional type of belt. Nothing, which is really needed - just because of the above reasons.

Now I think, if we change the suggestion into that direction I can move it back ("Conveyor belts optional using energy" or so). Opinions?

Move it back to the suggestion or balancing section and mark it as optional!

Also I think there might be a compromise... Let's say that Basic Belts don't require energy. They work with space magic!

But remove Fast/Express belts from the game. So how do we get faster belts then?

-> Research a motor and put it somewhere along your Basic Belt, power it up with Electricity and it already moves faster. Then insert some Speed Modules and it goes even faster (but requires more energy). Push it with Beacons and see how the items on the belt explode at Ludicrous Speed!

Seriously, I would recommend that after a certain speed barrier wear & tear sets in and you need to provide Lubricant to the motor as well to oil the entire belt, with the amount of Lube depending on how long the Belt is and how fast the Belt has to move.

All of the Belt Items including Underground Belts, Splitters and even the possibly upcoming Loaders would automatically adjust to the Speed given by the attached Motor. If you run low on Lube or Electricity the Belt would automatically slow down.

Maybe there can also be some connection to the circuit network or something that allows the player to adjust the speed of the belt according to signals. So one could power down the belt or ramp it up to maximum depending on the throughput needed.

So maybe there could be an expert option during map creation to punish experienced/hardcore players from the beginning. And that expert setting requires you to power even basic belt speed with a motor+electricity or you can't use them (so no space magic anymore). I would have put things that add more realism to an "expert difficuluty setting" a long time ago. Where items require upkeep that usually don't require upkeep (like Gun Turrets requiring at least some electricity for their targeting systems, Water Pumps requiring fuel/electricity etc). That way the real nerds can prove themselves against the odds.

I could definitely live with that and it would finally give the Lubricant some use.

[ssilk]

Well, moved back.

I see this as kind of discussion thread.

[DrEthan]

Upgrades: Maybe? Me for example would like to have a belt, where you can change the speed in very fine steps. That is of course a good reason.
Nothing against. But I think that is always an optional type of belt. Nothing, which is really needed - just because of the above reasons.

Now I think, if we change the suggestion into that direction I can move it back ("Conveyor belts optional using energy" or so). Opinions?

Move it back to the suggestion or balancing section and mark it as optional!

Also I think there might be a compromise... Let's say that Basic Belts don't require energy. They work with space magic!

But remove Fast/Express belts from the game. So how do we get faster belts then?

-> Research a motor and put it somewhere along your Basic Belt, power it up with Electricity and it already moves faster. Then insert some Speed Modules and it goes even faster (but requires more energy). Push it with Beacons and see how the items on the belt explode at Ludicrous Speed!

Seriously, I would recommend that after a certain speed barrier wear & tear sets in and you need to provide Lubricant to the motor as well to oil the entire belt, with the amount of Lube depending on how long the Belt is and how fast the Belt has to move.

All of the Belt Items including Underground Belts, Splitters and even the possibly upcoming Loaders would automatically adjust to the Speed given by the attached Motor. If you run low on Lube or Electricity the Belt would automatically slow down.

Maybe there can also be some connection to the circuit network or something that allows the player to adjust the speed of the belt according to signals. So one could power down the belt or ramp it up to maximum depending on the throughput needed.

So maybe there could be an expert option during map creation to punish experienced/hardcore players from the beginning. And that expert setting requires you to power even basic belt speed with a motor+electricity or you can't use them (so no space magic anymore). I would have put things that add more realism to an "expert difficuluty setting" a long time ago. Where items require upkeep that usually don't require upkeep (like Gun Turrets requiring at least some electricity for their targeting systems, Water Pumps requiring fuel/electricity etc). That way the real nerds can prove themselves against the odds.

I could definitely live with that and it would finally give the Lubricant some use.

I for one vote yes to the expert mode idea where everthing requires energy.

[Kaiji]

I find it extremely immersion breaking that conveyer belts don't require any power. Frankly, it feels stupid to have a factory filled with conveyer belts that run by magic while everything else needs power (apart from water pumps, which I also think should be addressed before beta).

To solve this, you could change it to allow an entire belt to be powered as long as at least one element of it is near a powered pylon. The electricity runs through the belt.

Of course, the longer the belt, the more electricity it would require.

This would add a subtle element of problem solving if a belt gets broken by biters while making the game more immersive and believable. I love looking over my factory and checking how much power everything's using, then I look at my conveyer belts and think "Oh yeah...... They run on magic......". Sorry if I'm labouring the point but it just feels crappy.

I sincerely hope the devs will consider implementing this. Immersion is everything in a game like this.

[ssilk]

To solve this, you could change it to allow an entire belt to be powered as long as at least one element of it is near a powered pylon. The electricity runs through the belt.

Assumed that would not break the game (please read above, why it will!): What does that change in gameplay? Despite from needing a bit more power? And that you need to repair a bit more. Tell me one example, where such a change would make the game more playful. And I mean playful, not immersive.

This would add a subtle element of problem solving if a belt gets broken by biters while making the game more immersive and believable. I love looking over my factory and checking how much power everything's using, then I look at my conveyer belts and think "Oh yeah...... They run on magic......". Sorry if I'm labouring the point but it just feels crappy.

But it's a game. Realism is nice, but at the end of the day it needs to be playable. See the above thread.

[Kaiji]

But it's a game. Realism is nice, but at the end of the day it needs to be playable.

It's not about realism. It's about immersion. Factorio is not very realistic, but it's depth gives it strong immersive qualities. But when one or more elements of your factory run on pure magic, that immersion is broken.

I can't speak for everyone, but in my personal experience the more immersive and believable a game is the more fun I have playing it. The more the immersion is broken and I'm reminded that I'm "just playing a game", the less fun I have.

This change would in no way adversely affect the playability of the game. Conveyer belts would simply need to have a pylon near them at any given point in order to be powered. They would no longer run on pure magic.

See the above thread.

I'm not sure what post you're referencing. Could you please explain why this would be a bad idea?

[DrEthan]

To solve this, you could change it to allow an entire belt to be powered as long as at least one element of it is near a powered pylon. The electricity runs through the belt.

Assumed that would not break the game (please read above, why it will!): What does that change in gameplay? Despite from needing a bit more power? And that you need to repair a bit more. Tell me one example, where such a change would make the game more playful. And I mean playful, not immersive.

This would add a subtle element of problem solving if a belt gets broken by biters while making the game more immersive and believable. I love looking over my factory and checking how much power everything's using, then I look at my conveyer belts and think "Oh yeah...... They run on magic......". Sorry if I'm labouring the point but it just feels crappy.

But it's a game. Realism is nice, but at the end of the day it needs to be playable. See the above thread.

Its not like everyone would have to have this it would only part of an extra option where everything requires energy, and if you dont want to have the belts require power then dont activate expert mode.

[Hexicube]

Conveyor belts would require such a minute amount of power that it would be pointless to even include such a system. According to wikipedia a certain 17km belt in constant use (1 ton every 4 seconds) is using 1.8MW to power the entire belt. Judging by the player model, each belt piece in game is probably a meter long (if not less), and assuming a similar power cost (a full but not backed up belt) any given piece would need just over 0.1W. A mega-base would need maybe 2kW (assumed 20k belts, probably way less), which is a sneeze in the general direction of a wind turbine in comparison to everything else.

In other words, it's entirely reasonable to assume that the belts are powered by built-in solar panels and have tiny batteries (or flywheels) to manage the night, given the level of power produced by the 9m^2 solar panels.

[MalcolmCooks]

In other words, it's entirely reasonable to assume that the belts are powered by built-in solar panels and have tiny batteries (or flywheels) to manage the night, given the level of power produced by the 9m^2 solar panels.

Perhaps the belts generate their own electricity by using thermoelectric pads that exploit the difference in temperature between the cool ground and the top of the belt, which is heated by the sun

Also
It took me a little while of playing the game just to figure out basic automation, and getting belts and burner inserters to work properly together. Once you learn this, the burner stage of technology can be pretty much skipped and you can go straight away to using electricity, but for beginner players I think it is crucial to learning the basic game mechanics. If electricity was required to make belts work, the learning curve would be a lot more difficult.

[Kaiji]

Conveyor belts would require such a minute amount of power that it would be pointless to even include such a system.

The point would be to show that they require power and you need to do something to provide it, just like everything else in the game (except water pumps, which also need to be addressed).

In other words, it's entirely reasonable to assume that the belts are powered by built-in solar panels and have tiny batteries (or flywheels) to manage the night, given the level of power produced by the 9m^2 solar panels.

So you're saying that you can develop the tech to build solar panels to attach to your conveyer belts at the start of the game before you've gone anywhere near actually researching solar panels? I think that would be pretty silly.

If electricity was required to make belts work, the learning curve would be a lot more difficult.

The learning curve already includes learning to provide everything with power. I don't see why a new player would be stumped by the idea of providing conveyer belts with power if they're able to wrap their head around the idea of providing everything else with power.

Again, to reiterate my solution (because I feel like it's being lost) you would not need to provide every section of the belt with power, just one section. The power would then spread through the rest of the belt.

[Hexicube]

Conveyor belts would require such a minute amount of power that it would be pointless to even include such a system.

The point would be to show that they require power and you need to do something to provide it, just like everything else in the game (except water pumps, which also need to be addressed).

So...tedium for the sake of tedium?

[Kaiji]

Conveyor belts would require such a minute amount of power that it would be pointless to even include such a system.

The point would be to show that they require power and you need to do something to provide it, just like everything else in the game (except water pumps, which also need to be addressed).

So...tedium for the sake of tedium?

If it was in the game from the start you wouldn't consider it tedium. It would just be a matter of providing an electrical device with electricity (I know... what a bizarre concept!).

The fact is, you already have electricity pylons touching most, if not all of your conveyer belts so there would be no "tedium" at all, just more immersion (immersion is a good thing in games. Breaking immersion is a bad thing in games) because an electric device would need to be provided with electricity.

I am honestly amazed how many people are determined to argue that a specific electrical device should not require electricity simply because that's how it happens to be during the Alpha phase of the game. I think this is more about people just being used to how it is and not wanting it to change.

[DrEthan]

Also
It took me a little while of playing the game just to figure out basic automation, and getting belts and burner inserters to work properly together. Once you learn this, the burner stage of technology can be pretty much skipped and you can go straight away to using electricity, but for beginner players I think it is crucial to learning the basic game mechanics. If electricity was required to make belts work, the learning curve would be a lot more difficult.

*facepalm* does no one get that they could just make this into and expert mode option that would make everything need power (so new players dont have to have every thing require power., There could also be a burner conveyor belt that would need coal and not electricity and like everything else it would be upgraded.

[Kaiji]

Also
It took me a little while of playing the game just to figure out basic automation, and getting belts and burner inserters to work properly together. Once you learn this, the burner stage of technology can be pretty much skipped and you can go straight away to using electricity, but for beginner players I think it is crucial to learning the basic game mechanics. If electricity was required to make belts work, the learning curve would be a lot more difficult.

*facepalm* does no one get that they could just make this into and expert mode option that would make everything need power (so new players dont have to have every thing require power., There could also be a burner conveyor belt that would need coal and not electricity and like everything else it would be upgraded.

I agree, but I think these features should be a part of the base game. It's not like having to power everything instead of most things would propel the game's complexity level into the stratosphere. People are acting like this change would wildly affect the game's level of complexity and that's just obviously false. I see it as a very subtle but necessary change to the game before it reaches beta.

If I end up having to mod the game or play an "expert mode" just to have everything work as it should (ie - electrical devices require electricity) it will just feel like the base game wasn't properly completed.

Conveyer belts that run on pure magic are immersion breaking and feel silly.

[MalcolmCooks]

If electricity was required to make belts work, the learning curve would be a lot more difficult.

The learning curve already includes learning to provide everything with power. I don't see why a new player would be stumped by the idea of providing conveyer belts with power if they're able to wrap their head around the idea of providing everything else with power.

Because instead of learning to do them one after another, you have to learn them together.

(except water pumps, which also need to be addressed).

Just... no. How are you going to get water into your steam engines to make electricity if the pump needs electricity? What do you want, a burner water pump that you replace after using for one second? Ridiculous.
These devices are not powered because it would just add a layer of annoyance and add nothing to the gameplay.

expert mode option

make a mod for it. there's your "expert" mode option.

[Kaiji]

Because instead of learning to do them one after another, you have to learn them together.

Yeah, really mindshattering stuff.

It's OK though... I came up with a solution

Tutorial: "Ensure your conveyer belt is connected to your electricity supply".

Hopefully that won't make too many people's minds implode. "Wh... What........... Provide a conveyer belt with electricity??? Damn... I thought this was a good game but that is just way beyond my intellectual capability... I quit!"

What do you want, a burner water pump that you replace after using for one second?

No, but a burner water pump that requires coal to function would be a good solution. You already provide your burners with coal, so it would be no problem to also provide the pump with coal. That way you increase immersion with no negative side effects whatsoever (aside from those you arbitrarily make up because you 're determined to argue for specific machines not needing power).

[Hexicube]

If it was in the game from the start you wouldn't consider it tedium. It would just be a matter of providing an electrical device with electricity (I know... what a bizarre concept!).

The fact is, you already have electricity pylons touching most, if not all of your conveyer belts so there would be no "tedium" at all, just more immersion (immersion is a good thing in games. Breaking immersion is a bad thing in games) because an electric device would need to be provided with electricity.

I am honestly amazed how many people are determined to argue that a specific electrical device should not require electricity simply because that's how it happens to be during the Alpha phase of the game. I think this is more about people just being used to how it is and not wanting it to change.

1. If I knew it was in the game from the start, I would have complained almost immediately because it would either be unrealistically power intensive or pointless to have that requirement.
2. I would consider hooking literally every tiny piece massively tedious, currently there's a good balance of "anything that performs a complex function requires power"...and yes, inserters perform a complex function, grabbing a moving item is hard.
3. The fact that belts already touch power poles is a reason to NOT implement such a system that would needlessly burden the CPU and reduce the UPS.
4. I'm determined to argue that belts should not require power for the same reason you're determined to argue they should: Preferences.
5. Previous versions of the game had no influence on my opinion, I got it within the past couple of weeks.

There's two scenarios where a belt would not be connected by at least one tile to the power grid:
1. Very early game, where you might not even have a power grid yet
2. After a biter attack takes out a piece of belt, in which case the belt system breaks regardless

If you want to take your immersion ideas further, maybe we should require research to build belts that involves electromagnets for the motors at each end?
Maybe every reasonably complex device should require being connected by a substation since that would handle voltage conversion, and is therefore immersive?
How about requiring gun turrets to have some advanced prerequisite technology that would signify being able to track enemies but not also kill you, since that would be not magic?
Perhaps we should have biters instantly kill you since they take your entire arm off if you lack armour, as that would be immersive too?
Why not just go all the way and have every building take multiple game days to finish, with an extended mini-game where you puts all the parts in place?

Immersion isn't something you can just throw around as a reason for a change.

Next time, don't use a condescending tone.
Also, don't act like I don't know anything, you'd be surprised.

[Kaiji]

1. If I knew it was in the game from the start, I would have complained almost immediately because it would either be unrealistically power intensive or pointless to have that requirement.

I don't believe you. I don't think you would have given it a second thought. I don't think anyone would. An electrical device needing electricity is exactly what everyone would expect to happen, since electrical devices need electricity.

I'm determined to argue that belts should not require power for the same reason you're determined to argue they should: Preferences.

Absolutely. I enjoy games that have minimal immersion breaking elements. You clearly don't consider that to be as much of a concern as I do, and that's fine.

My hope is that the devs understand that maximizing immersion is a very very good idea.

IIf you want to take your immersion ideas further, maybe we should require research to build belts that involves electromagnets for the motors at each end?
Maybe every reasonably complex device should require being connected by a substation since that would handle voltage conversion, and is therefore immersive?
How about requiring gun turrets to have some advanced prerequisite technology that would signify being able to track enemies but not also kill you, since that would be not magic?
Perhaps we should have biters instantly kill you since they take your entire arm off if you lack armour, as that would be immersive too?
Why not just go all the way and have every building take multiple game days to finish, with an extended mini-game where you puts all the parts in place?

It really tires me when people use this arguing technique on the internet. Oh you want 'X feature' to be in the game? Well how would you like it if they put in 'X feature' to the millionth power?? Huh!? Now how do you feel about X feature?".

It doesn't strengthen your argument. It makes it clear that you need to obfuscate mine in order to counter it.

Immersion isn't something you can just throw around as a reason for a change.

I disagree. I think immersion is one of the most important aspects of game development. In a game where almost everything requires power except one or two things that run on pure magic, the immersion needs attention and adjustment.

Next time, don't use a condescending tone.

I prefer "forthright".

Also, don't act like I don't know anything, you'd be surprised.

I'm sorry if you got the wrong impression. This discussion is about whether an electrical device should require electricity. I don't presume to know anything about you other than your opinion on this subject.

[Hexicube]

1. If I knew it was in the game from the start, I would have complained almost immediately because it would either be unrealistically power intensive or pointless to have that requirement.

I don't believe you. I don't think you would have given it a second thought. I don't think anyone would. An electrical device needing electricity is exactly what everyone would expect to happen, since electrical devices need electricity.

I feel that the game currently has a very nicely designed early game with a lot of branching options available, forcing the player to immediately dive into steam power for the simplest of automation (bear in mind burner inserters exist which need no power grid) would be a little limiting and would have detracted from that.

I'm determined to argue that belts should not require power for the same reason you're determined to argue they should: Preferences.

Absolutely. I enjoy games that have minimal immersion breaking elements. You clearly don't consider that to be as much of a concern as I do, and that's fine.

My hope is that the devs understand that maximizing immersion is a very very good idea.

And I hope that they spend the time that would be spent adding such a feature elsewhere, because most people wouldn't even notice such a change except when it impacts their UPS.

IIf you want to take your immersion ideas further, maybe we should require research to build belts that involves electromagnets for the motors at each end?
Maybe every reasonably complex device should require being connected by a substation since that would handle voltage conversion, and is therefore immersive?
How about requiring gun turrets to have some advanced prerequisite technology that would signify being able to track enemies but not also kill you, since that would be not magic?
Perhaps we should have biters instantly kill you since they take your entire arm off if you lack armour, as that would be immersive too?
Why not just go all the way and have every building take multiple game days to finish, with an extended mini-game where you puts all the parts in place?

It really tires me when people use this arguing technique on the internet. Oh you want 'X feature' to be in the game? Well how would you like it if they put in 'X feature' to the millionth power?? Huh!? Now how do you feel about X feature?".

It doesn't strengthen your argument. It makes it clear that you need to obfuscate mine in order to counter it.

You brushed off my counter-argument that belts require so little power you could assume they already have a way of producing it, I may as well attempt a different argument.

Immersion isn't something you can just throw around as a reason for a change.

I disagree. I think immersion is one of the most important aspects of game development. In a game where almost everything requires power except one or two things that run on pure magic, the immersion needs attention and adjustment.

Immersion is only beneficial when it doesn't impact other elements of the game.

Next time, don't use a condescending tone.

I prefer "forthright".

Also, don't act like I don't know anything, you'd be surprised.

I'm sorry if you got the wrong impression. This discussion is about whether an electrical device should require electricity. I don't presume to know anything about you other than your opinion on this subject.

Neither of the following sections of the post I replied to are either "forthright" or not implying intellectual superiority:

providing an electrical device with electricity (I know... what a bizarre concept!)

(immersion is a good thing in games. Breaking immersion is a bad thing in games)

[MalcolmCooks]

As a new player, I would have complained about it too. There's an inherent logical discontinuity on the idea that: 1) to set up a functioning electrical network, you need belts and water pumps 2) for belts and water pumps to work, you need a functioning electrical network. That discontinuity in the gameplay flow does more to break "immersion" than thinking for a second "it's a little bit strange that the conveyer belts move one their own". Especially when there are other things like burner inserters, being able to apparantly sense an item in front of it and pick it up, when they are powered by coal and have no electronics inside. If such a contraption is possible with just mechanical components, I don't know how it would be done. There are actually lots of examples of this all across Factorio, but because the game has its own consistent internal logic to these things, suspension of disbelief allows you to ignore it and enjoy the game.