Add second tier to chemical/trains/bots/etc.

[ArcoLaren]

TL;DR
As the title says, consider adding a second tier/alternative versions of chemical plants, refineries, trains, roboports/bots and other entities.
Why?
As of now, there are two progression systems in Factorio. The first one is defined by science - you get burners, then electricity, then chemicals, and so on. This is enhanced further by DLC adding planetary science.
The second one is tied to the available machines themselves. You get your burner inserters/Mk.I crafting machines, then you get electrical inserters and better machines, and so on. Electrical poles, modules, belts - all of these feature the opportunity to use better/more specialised versions of themselves.
Then there are outliers, namely bots, trains, and, most importantly, chemical industry entities. The problem is, once you get them, you are stuck with them forever. This does not fit in the expected progression path, especially considering the new Foundry/EM plants/belts/inserters/power in the upcoming DLC. Also - overall feel of your factory. You use your fancy advanced crafting/logistic machines, yet you are stuck with "ye olde" burner trains and chunky chemistry.
It is highly probable that some parts of this suggestion are covered by the new "Agriculture" industry, in addition to the final planet. Quality certainly addresses it, although it still feels lacking. It might've even been suggested before. Yet I do feel the additional versions of single-tiered entities would be beneficial for the game.

[d_o_n_t_understand]

So what exactly you want tier 2 bots or trains to do?

[ArcoLaren]

So what exactly you want tier 2 bots or trains to do?

My initial idea for bots is to improve energy/distance ratio, as this value remains mostly unchanged by speed research. Energy capacity is also an option.
Another possibility is the "intelligence" of the bots - t1 bots may not have the improved pathing, although not sure how it would affect the performance.

[ArcoLaren]

So what exactly you want tier 2 bots or trains to do?

As for trains - electrical trains (haven't seen a mod that felt proper yet) or nuclear trains (high capital investment vs. low opex).
Wagons - reduced weight/slot ratio (weight/liquid), further improved by quality.
Again, there might be other viable ideas I have not concidered. If they create a distinctive T2 entity - why not?

[Kyralessa]

Won't quality take care of this?

[ArcoLaren]

Won't quality take care of this?

Quality is ok-ish, but it is a matter of having an upgrade option similar to ones you have in the beginning of the game. You follow sort-of "prototype - industrial - advanced" loop with most machines (drills, assemblers, inserters, and so on). It would feel much better to see this in everything.

[CyberCider]

Quality was added with the express purpose of avoiding more tiers

pic

IMG_2475.jpeg (850.63 KiB) Viewed 594 times

And not even quality improves trains. Apparently because they would be annoying to replace in an active base, and because they’re already “upgraded” over time by better fuels and such.
But don’t worry, there may be some hope yet. Much evidence suggests that a teased building from the last planet will be able to function as an advanced chemical plant, and maybe even a refinery all in one.

pics

IMG_2476.jpeg (72.76 KiB) Viewed 594 times

IMG_2477.jpeg (3.4 KiB) Viewed 594 times

IMG_2478.jpeg (154.49 KiB) Viewed 594 times

IMG_2479.jpeg (83.12 KiB) Viewed 594 times

[ArcoLaren]

Wait, if we take into account new belts and item stacking and quality inserters... having fixed 40 slots per wagon feels somewhat limited. Concerningly limited. I am curious what was the feedback on this during the playtests.

[sarge945]

Trains already scale based on your fuel type, and how big your train network is. 50 trains carrying ore around a large well -signalled network is much more impactful than a single train delivering from a single outpost, especially if you switch from using coal to using rocket or nuclear fuel.

Bots also get better over time as they reach critical mass. Having 50 roboports with a total of 10 logistics bots between them is generally far less useful than 10 roboports sharing 50 logistics bots. Add on the repeatable bot researches and late game bots become significantly better than early game ones.

There's no need for tier 2 bots or trains, and currently the more nuanced and granular progression of both systems offers far more depth than simply clicking "trains MK2" or whatever.

I would however support tier 2 versions of buildings with non-linear cost to benefit ratios. Like a solar panel that provides double the power output but costs 3 times the resources. I believe some mods already add something like this. This may seem useless but the main benefit would be space efficiency, which matters on space platforms and means you don't have to have a gigantic robot network to maintain and build an insanely large solar farm to support a megabase. The same thing could work for assembling machines, refineries etc.

[ArcoLaren]

Trains already scale based on your fuel type, and how big your train network is. 50 trains carrying ore around a large well -signalled network is much more impactful than a single train delivering from a single outpost, especially if you switch from using coal to using rocket or nuclear fuel.

Bots also get better over time as they reach critical mass. Having 50 roboports with a total of 10 logistics bots between them is generally far less useful than 10 roboports sharing 50 logistics bots. Add on the repeatable bot researches and late game bots become significantly better than early game ones.

There's no need for tier 2 bots or trains, and currently the more nuanced and granular progression of both systems offers far more depth than simply clicking "trains MK2" or whatever.

I would however support tier 2 versions of buildings with non-linear cost to benefit ratios. Like a solar panel that provides double the power output but costs 3 times the resources. I believe some mods already add something like this. This may seem useless but the main benefit would be space efficiency, which matters on space platforms and means you don't have to have a gigantic robot network to maintain and build an insanely large solar farm to support a megabase. The same thing could work for assembling machines, refineries etc.

Hmm, after thinking about it for a bit... Yes, mk2 should not offer a "simply click X" solution. Your suggestion about space efficiency is partly what I am having in mind. The way I see Mk2 now: a high-cost solution for hitting limits which can not be overcome by other means.
Example: there is only so much charging spots for robots per unit of space (mostly unaffected by speed research), which means once you reach local charging capacity saturation, you've hit your limit without any option push through it. Mk2 roboport can be a solution (6 spots or a smaller footprint, other options may apply).
Same with trains - there is a limit to how dense you can operate your rolling stock without resorting to 4+ lanes of rails.

That being said, I am not sure whether reaching the specific density or space limits would be a large problem, as it is (probably) a very late-game issue. So please, do tell if I am overthinking these things.

[sarge945]

Well, for me at least, I think the potential UPS savings is what's the most important.

When you can have an equivalent nuclear power plant that costs 3x as many resources but outputs twice as much power, that doesn't really make sense in normal gameplay. But scale this up with "Mk 2/3/4" type infinite researches, and it makes more sense for megabases that care about UPS. Eventually, having a nuclear reactor with 15x the output at 30x the cost is worth it if it means your computer is doing 15x less fluid calculations, etc.

Being able to infinitely upgrade, say, Assemblers, would also limit the number of inserters needed, which are a real UPS hog. I could see megabases doing the infinite research to produce all the circuits they need using 10 ultra-fast multiply-upgraded Mk10 assembling machines rather than 100 beaconed and module'd Tier 3's, even if it costs an order of magnitude more resources to build. Maybe that would take some of the charm from megabases, as they would no longer need to be as massive, but I think the UPS gains might be worth it.

This is starting to sound an awful lot like Quality, though...