New train stop "condition" "switch to manual operation"

[Factoruser]

You should be able to switch a locomotive to "manual" operation automatically, the best by the train schedule conditions. You might simply call it "Stop".

It might further be the default behaviour for trains without any train stop condition. => No condition makes no sense. Currently a train without stop condition will only drive to the train stop and immediately proceed to the next stop on the list. It doesn't even stand long enough for any loading/unloading. The only effect is burning fuel.

"I'm" using a special train for conveniently travelling around, but I've got to switch it always to "manual" by hand when I arrived. And setting the condition "passenger present AND passenger not present" is very bloated compared. If you could use the train without any conditions, its schedule would be much more lucid, and it would be overall much more handy.

[SoShootMe]

A schedule entry with no condition has a specific (but relatively rarely used, I think) purpose, which is to make the station a waypoint.

Changing the behaviour when no condition is set would break that use, although it could be restored by adding a "Waypoint" pseudo-condition. I think it would be better to add a "Switch to manual" pseudo-condition, which has obvious use for personal trains, and in particular I think it would be an improvement over the current "5s passed" as the default for a temporary schedule entry.

An item count condition without the item set is a workaround (but ugly); the train stays in automatic mode but the condition is never met.

[FuryoftheStars]

A schedule entry with no condition has a specific (but relatively rarely used, I think) purpose, which is to make the station a waypoint.

Changing the behaviour when no condition is set would break that use, although it could be restored by adding a "Waypoint" pseudo-condition. I think it would be better to add a "Switch to manual" pseudo-condition, which has obvious use for personal trains, and in particular I think it would be an improvement over the current "5s passed" as the default for a temporary schedule entry.

An item count condition without the item set is a workaround (but ugly); the train stays in automatic mode but the condition is never met.

Agreed with everything said here.

[mmmPI]

"I'm" using a special train for conveniently travelling around, but I've got to switch it always to "manual" by hand when I arrived. And setting the condition "passenger present AND passenger not present" is very bloated compared. If you could use the train without any conditions, its schedule would be much more lucid, and it would be overall much more handy.

If that special train had no station at all in schedule, then using 1 temporary stop would be very similar to what you want to achieve with the suggestion, as when arriving at the temporary stop, after the 5 sec, the train would have nowhere planned to go and would just stay in place ready for when you jump in again to give it another temporary stop somewhere else.

Do you have pax stations in schedule for your train ? what is the train doing if you do not switch it to manual ?

[FuryoftheStars]

This actually reminds me, there are some mods in regards to this kind of stuff. I know you're looking for it in the base game, but until it's implemented, or in case it never is:

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/manual-tr ... temp-stops
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Shuttle_Train_Continued
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/ShuttleTrainRefresh
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/flipfloptrainmode

Just some options for you.

[SoShootMe]

If that special train had no station at all in schedule, then using 1 temporary stop would be very similar to what you want to achieve with the suggestion, as when arriving at the temporary stop, after the 5 sec, the train would have nowhere planned to go and would just stay in place ready for when you jump in again to give it another temporary stop somewhere else.

Adding a temporary stop requires setting the target on the map. That's perfect for going to "random" places, like a faster car that requires rails but doesn't require manual navigation.

Sooner or later, a repeated need to move between specific parts of your sprawling factory develops, and repeatedly setting the target from the map becomes tedious. A simple solution is to create uniquely-named stops and add them to a train's schedule with a condition that is never met, so that with a suitable rail network, you can hop on board and click to go to a particular named place. The schedule is really just serving as a list of named places that you can order to taste. A "Switch to manual" pseudo-condition would make this more clear.

And at least in my case, a train with such a schedule is the same train I sometimes want to use to go somewhere "random" next, so "Switch to manual" would be a useful default pseudo-condition for a temporary stop.

This actually reminds me, there are some mods in regards to this kind of stuff. [...]

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/manual-tr ... temp-stops
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Shuttle_Train_Continued
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/ShuttleTrainRefresh
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/flipfloptrainmode

The first (from the description) achieves exactly my last point above, the second and third are obviously a more specific (more direct, and I think more elegant) solution to the overall problem of getting about by rail than what I described.

[Factoruser]

A schedule entry with no condition has a specific (but relatively rarely used, I think) purpose, which is to make the station a waypoint.

This makes no sense. Any station is already a waypoint, without being part of one train's schedule...

[Factoruser]

Do you have pax stations in schedule for your train ? What is the train doing if you do not switch it to manual ?

Of course - I've got a "home base" station to keep the train out of the way. But creating temporary stops again and again isn't very handy. You'll visit many train stops very often. If you don't add a condition to a stop, you have to switch to "manual" quickly in the right moment, or the train proceeds immediately to drive to the next stop in list. The "passenger present AND passenger not present" solution requires much clicking and space in the schedule. It's especially okay for the "home base", for others I'm using "30 seconds" and switch to "manual" manually. But this could be more convenient...

And the use of such a train is simply to travel fast, maybe transport additional material etc. to a building site and get back again fastly.

[FuryoftheStars]

A schedule entry with no condition has a specific (but relatively rarely used, I think) purpose, which is to make the station a waypoint.

This makes no sense. Any station is already a waypoint, without being part of one train's schedule...

I don't understand this comment. If a station is not a part of a train's schedule, then if possible, it will actively seek an alternate route that does not go through that station as stations add pathing penalties.

[SoShootMe]

A schedule entry with no condition has a specific (but relatively rarely used, I think) purpose, which is to make the station a waypoint.

This makes no sense. Any station is already a waypoint, without being part of one train's schedule...

I don't understand what you are trying to say. Stations are not necessarily waypoints, but they are all potential waypoints.

In general use, waypoint only means "a particular place along a route", which applies to the stations of all schedule entries, so you could say all the stations in a given train's schedule are waypoints for that train's (looped) route. However, in Factorio the detail of the route is determined for you and the only reason to include an entry without any wait condition is to create an extra waypoint, ie to force the route from the previous entry to the next entry to be via that entry, and (as an unsurprising result) in my experience only that case is referred to as a waypoint - that was the meaning I intended.

If you don't add a condition to a stop, you have to switch to "manual" quickly in the right moment, or the train proceeds immediately to drive to the next stop in list.

It's worse than that. If, at the point the train would brake to stop at the train stop, there is a path in the train's current direction to the next station, it won't even slow down. That potentially means you need to either switch to manual before that point, and possibly correctly negotiate points/switches, as you brake (from anything up to and including full speed) or you will overshoot. The result being that switching to manual "in the right moment" is only a sensible approach if stops are at ends of the track, ensuring the first condition is never met.

The "passenger present AND passenger not present" solution requires much clicking and space in the schedule. It's especially okay for the "home base", for others I'm using "30 seconds" and switch to "manual" manually. But this could be more convenient...

Try the workaround I suggested before: Add wait condition, Item count. Two clicks after adding the station (realistically minimal, and fewer than the alternatives you mentioned), one condition entry (OK, still more space in the schedule than is ideal, but the same as a "Switch to manual" condition) but the train will always brake to the stop and then wait indefinitely.

[mmmPI]

I've got a "home base" station to keep the train out of the way. But creating temporary stops again and again isn't very handy. You'll visit many train stops very often. If you don't add a condition to a stop, you have to switch to "manual" quickly in the right moment, or the train proceeds immediately to drive to the next stop in list. The "passenger present AND passenger not present" solution requires much clicking and space in the schedule. It's especially okay for the "home base", for others I'm using "30 seconds" and switch to "manual" manually. But this could be more convenient...

And the use of such a train is simply to travel fast, maybe transport additional material etc. to a building site and get back again fastly.

Sooner or later, a repeated need to move between specific parts of your sprawling factory develops, and repeatedly setting the target from the map becomes tedious.

ok i understand the context better i think,

for travel only i use a locomotive in my inventory and i mine it when i arrive on location so it doesn't block anything. or i like the default condition for temporary stop because you can "borrow" any train for travel, they are all taxi trains and return to correct duty after.

I tend to make special trains to carry material, and i "call" them to me when i need, like 1 train has material to make outpost, one train has defense material, one train has rails signals poles cliffs explosives radar and so on, one train carry solar pannel and accumulators, i do not go back and forth several time for material, i call the train several time for material.

but the situation is similar, when i call one of those train it's done using a temporary stop, as they only have their "home base" in memory sometimes i forgot to add a "never met condition" to the temporary stop, and the train goes back to "home base" before i can take the material, i use fluid count or circuit condition, to make sure i do not pick an item that happens to be in the train

Another thing that works well i found is 5 sec inactivty AND passager present condition, for those special train at the temporary stop, i set this when the train is going to the place, when arriving the train wait, i leave the train, do the things, and when going back into the train, it meets all condition to go back to base no need to select automatic again.

Now if you have pax stations, you can add a signal just after the station, connected to a chest, and the signal green only if the chest is empty. You can leave 1 iron plate in the chest, when you visit the station the train will be blocked by the signal, and when you want to leave, you jump in the train, and then you open the chest and pick up the iron plate, turning the signal green, making the train move and quickly put it back once a little bit of the train has crossed the signal, doing it with hotkey i found is faster than using the train gui

A simple solution is to create uniquely-named stops and add them to a train's schedule with a condition that is never met, so that with a suitable rail network, you can hop on board and click to go to a particular named place. The schedule is really just serving as a list of named places that you can order to taste. A "Switch to manual" pseudo-condition would make this more clear.

i use less pax stations than before the introduction of temporary stops, as with many of them it become tedious to scroll and find them in the schedule, so i think i wouldn't add them all in the list but rather have none and use the research and type a few letters everytime i want to move i'd add 1 station no matter the condition ( in the current state)



i didn't know this mod https://mods.factorio.com/mod/manual-tr ... temp-stops it sound like the suggestion

i used this one https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Honk to avoid missing the 5sec stop default condition but it is less automated

[SoShootMe]

i use less pax stations than before the introduction of temporary stops, as with many of them it become tedious to scroll and find them in the schedule, so i think i wouldn't add them all in the list but rather have none and use the research and type a few letters everytime i want to move i'd add 1 station no matter the condition ( in the current state)

If the list gets too long (subjective, of course) I can remove an entry I haven't used for a while. The end result is similar to your suggestion of using search, except a bit more effort to add a stop (due to also needing to add a condition; ideally this would be "Switch to manual") with that offset by benefit similar to a "most recently used" list.

i didn't know this mod https://mods.factorio.com/mod/manual-tr ... temp-stops it sound like the suggestion

It is equivalent to my dependent suggestion, to make "Switch to manual" the default for temporary stops. Part of the original suggestion was to have that condition for normal schedule entries, which would be more obvious (and less ugly) than the workaround of an unconfigured item count condition.

[mmmPI]

If the list gets too long (subjective, of course) I can remove an entry I haven't used for a while. The end result is similar to your suggestion of using search, except a bit more effort to add a stop (due to also needing to add a condition; ideally this would be "Switch to manual") with that offset by benefit similar to a "most recently used" list.

i agree, things are often ending up as you describe for me because i don't have all material in trains at the start, during the construction process of the system, which is most of the games sometimes

i didn't know this mod https://mods.factorio.com/mod/manual-tr ... temp-stops it sound like the suggestion

It is equivalent to my dependent suggestion, to make "Switch to manual" the default for temporary stops. Part of the original suggestion was to have that condition for normal schedule entries, which would be more obvious (and less ugly) than the workaround of an unconfigured item count condition.

Yes it's the "further" part of the original suggestion which you developped and i dislike as the current "default" has benefits in my eyes. It is more change than just adding the optionnal "switch to manual" as a pseudo condition, which has no downside in my eyes as it doesn't break my worfflow

Having a mod doing just that is great it allow to play already with part of the suggestion, maybe one realize it's not so good as default behavior, maybe one find new arguments to support the suggestion or refine it, looking for a more custom "game experience" is what drive people to make and use mods i think, the most likely outcome is that the mod become a must have for some game until one wants to try another way of doing things
( even though to me it is the least favourite option the mod need some highlight it in the verbose discussion ).

[Factoruser]

Now I've got the waypoint thing... But this might be extremely unusual though.

Anyway I'd prefer a "Stop"-"condition" because it's simply much more obvious/intuitive. Everything else like "delete a stop in the schedule" is just not as convenient, that's all. As I told I could also add a new train stop, and the condition "passenger present AND passenger not present", but it's annoying because every other current solution than this "Stop"-"condition" means much more clicking. At least I'd like to have a solution to disable my train at the "home base" automatically. - And "passenger present AND passenger not present" doesn't really disable the train to be precisely - it's deadlocking it.

[SoShootMe]

Yes it's the "further" part of the original suggestion which you developped and i dislike as the current "default" has benefits in my eyes.

What do you see as the benefits of the current default "5s passed" condition for temporary stops vs "Switch to manual"?

The only thing I can see you described (in this thread at least) is that you can add a condition to additionally require passenger present, to get behaviour that the train waits until you enter it again, then immediately goes back to base. I think that's a small benefit and a fairly narrow use case. It saves no actions and only the time to open the train window and click Automatic, and it only works if you are paying attention in the five second window (likely only for a relatively short journey) and know ahead of time you will want to return to base (fairly likely I guess).

[SoShootMe]

As I told I could also add a new train stop, and the condition "passenger present AND passenger not present", but it's annoying because every other current solution than this "Stop"-"condition" means much more clicking.

The only way to save clicking is for the behaviour when there are no conditions to be changed from meaning "this is a waypoint" to "switch to manual". The workaround I suggested is the same number of clicks as adding the proposed "switch to manual" pseudo-condition, two. Is that too many?

"passenger present AND passenger not present" doesn't really disable the train to be precisely - it's deadlocking it.

There are some subtle differences I can think of with switching to manual mode, stemming from the fact only trains in automatic mode are "at" a stop: inserter behaviour, stop reservation and circuit network signals. Maybe I've missed some, but I think that these at least won't make a difference in most cases and if they do, they are more likely to be disadvantages of switching to manual mode.

[mmmPI]

What do you see as the benefits of the current default "5s passed" condition for temporary stops vs "Switch to manual"?

The only thing I can see you described (in this thread at least) is that you can add a condition to additionally require passenger present, to get behaviour that the train waits until you enter it again, then immediately goes back to base. I think that's a small benefit and a fairly narrow use case. It saves no actions and only the time to open the train window and click Automatic, and it only works if you are paying attention in the five second window (likely only for a relatively short journey) and know ahead of time you will want to return to base (fairly likely I guess).

The benefits are the forgiving nature of the current state of things (imo) things go back to previous if you forgot something rather than blocking. It is not so good for personnal train or requesting train full of material in some cases, but maybe/i suspect, in others cases that could be revelead when using the mod that maybe one forgot that train with its temporary stop. It is very unlikely for your own personnal train in which you are currently but giving my preference of requesting a train of material, it would lead to problems of train forgotten somewhere in the cases when 'im not looking/waiting at the train to arrive to me with those modules i forgot impatiently, in which case the 5sec default is just fine , i do not even open train gui again.

I also use temporary train stops to remote control trains on the map, to fix any signaling mistake or blueprint misprinted , or those situation where i would have to re select the train after it made its little move to put it back on automatic.


The small benefit for fairly narrow use case is my personnal experience to make up the most out of the existing state, which for my use cases is also not perfect, as i forget things often, in which case the train full of material goes back to its home base, which is why i'm also interested by the suggestion, as the lighter version, the pseudo-condition "switch to manual" would be an improvement for me, as it would make selecting a "never met condition" faster, instead of choosing, fluid count, then a fluid then a quantity, or circuit condition, then a signal, then a number or operator, instead it would be one click, to select "switch to manual" which is also even faster than choosing 2 condition than cannot be met at the same time, like what OP is mentionning "passenger present" AND "passenger not present"

there are more elaborate way to deal with train request than using temporary stops , one could also have those special supply train set up with 2 station on schedule , their base and another station called "request1" 2,3,4 and so on with any kind of pre-recorded condition. "request1" station should not exist on the map, only in the train schedule. This way to request a train, you build a physical temporary train stop that you will remove later, you place a train stop called "request1" or "request4" for other train called, this on a temporary rail extension. As a way to make the request and knowing it will sit somewhere (and not just 5sec). It has similar effect as what the suggestion is wishing to achieve considering the idea that one uses temporary stops to request train of material requiring a bit more initial set-up but allowing to get a blueprint book with the different name of request things, or just if you have a good memory, it completely remove the need to search the train on the map or in a list. I used this a lot more before temporary stops but it is still a pleasant system to play

Yet overall it's not perfect, not every material is into train from the start, this is why i'm interested in the suggestion, even if not necessarily to have it as a defaut condition.

[Factoruser]

The only way to save clicking [...]

No. Currently you might use "wait 30 seconds", but you shouldn't forget to switch to manual when you arrive, otherwise your train will elope and perhaps block other trains. With the "Stop"-"condition" you could "fire and forget" your train. It runs to the demand stop and will stay there - and ideally would even NOT be (un)loaded automatically, but that's not Factorio's behaviour for manual mode.

This way you can keep all important train stops in the schedule, and just have to click that one you want to go to. It's obviously more convenient than using any other conditions or circuits. But I don't think that it could be useful for anything else than a "personal" train.

BTW if someone shouldn't know: you can command trains all over the map - edit the schedule, demand the next stop and toggle manual/automatic operation.

[SoShootMe]

The only way to save clicking [...]

No.

Let me re-add some context and clarify: for a station (as opposed to a temporary stop) you add to the schedule, the only way to save clicking over the two-click workaround I suggested (Add condition, Item count) is for the behaviour when there are no conditions to be changed, so that by default (without adding any condition) the train will stop and switch to manual mode.

If the current no condition behaviour is retained, but "switch to manual" was added as a pseudo-condition, the only difference in action would be the condition selected. QED.

[mmmPI]

If the current no condition behaviour is retained, but "switch to manual" was added as a pseudo-condition, the only difference in action would be the condition selected. QED.

I think It would still save "some" clicks, the solution you suggest is what i already use, but OP has a faster one, and proposes an even faster one ( the pseudo-condition).

I do 1 click to select "fluid"count, 1 click to select a random fluid, 1 click on the operator or 1 click to a set an amount of water. (or circuit)
You do the same with "itemcount", but then you need to choose and item, and then click the operator so the condition by default is not "iron"=0, that's some clicks that are necessary, maybe you don't realize you do them everytime because it's automatic, it's 1 action, like set a "never met condition" but it's a bit more than 2 clicks if counted literally.

It seem to be faster to instead select "passenger present" AND " passenger not present", although that is adding 2 conditions instead of just 1, those conditions do not require further clicks to be set up, but that takes 2 lines on the schedule instead of 1, i was doing it wrong all the time and you were too !

I still need to do so in game quite a lot though , muscle memory will take a bit of time to re-educate