Underground infrastructure in concrete

[leadraven]

Hello, factorians.

I have an idea - only a concept, I didn't figured out how to formalize it so that it worked properly.

Make concrete (and stuff) to increase underground pipe/belt max distance.

I would like to hear your opinions:
- Would it be too complex mechanic?
- How to implement it so this mechanic can't be "hacked"?
- Do you like the idea in general?

[AileTheAlien]

This would have a bunch of weird edge cases, like having one half of a pipe start on concrete and end on grass, for example. (Not only for programming it without bugs, but to make it understandable to new players.) It would be a lot simpler, to have longer underground pipes and belts, which are constructed with concrete in their recipes, and which can only be placed on concrete.

[ManaUser]

I like this idea.

To make it relatively simple, I'd say "no partial credit". To get the bonus, both ends and all tiles in between must be paved. If there are different levels (e.g. +1 for brick, +2 for concrete) then the lowest bonus would apply.

One detail that isn't necessarily a big deal, but would have to be handled: With belts, what happens to items in the underground section when the connection is broken by removing concrete? They could be destroyed I guess, but based on how other things in the game work I would expect them to dump out on the ground, I'm just not sure where exactly.

[leadraven]

To make it relatively simple, I'd say "no partial credit". To get the bonus, both ends and all tiles in between must be paved. If there are different levels (e.g. +1 for brick, +2 for concrete) then the lowest bonus would apply.

I like this wording.

One detail that isn't necessarily a big deal, but would have to be handled: With belts, what happens to items in the underground section when the connection is broken by removing concrete? They could be destroyed I guess, but based on how other things in the game work I would expect them to dump out on the ground, I'm just not sure where exactly.

I think it must be handled the same way as removing one of belt's ends.

One more thing to discuss are numbers. It might be +1/+2 for belts and +2/+4 for pipes. Or, to unify numbers, it could be +50%/+100% (good thing all numbers are even). Will +100% be too much? And will +2 be too few?
I like +50%/+100%, in the world of logistics bots it's never too much. And +1/+2 simply doesn't worth to implement.

[ManaUser]

I think it must be handled the same way as removing one of belt's ends.

Reasonable. And of the two, I suppose the "In" side is where you'd naturally expect a pile-up to occur.

One more thing to discuss are numbers. It might be +1/+2 for belts and +2/+4 for pipes. Or, to unify numbers, it could be +50%/+100% (good thing all numbers are even). Will +100% be too much? And will +2 be too few?
I like +50%/+100%, in the world of logistics bots it's never too much. And +1/+2 simply doesn't worth to implement.

Well, refined concrete could be a third level too of course. I agree the pipes probably needing a bigger bonus to be worth it, but I think almost any bonus could be valuable on the belts, considering how densely people like to weave them through complex builds. But ultimately the exact bonus is something that can easily be fine tuned once everything else is settled. Personally though, I think it would be OK if it was just "one more advantage to paving", even if not necessarily worth it alone.

[darkfrei]

Hello, factorians.

I have an idea - only a concept, I didn't figured out how to formalize it so that it worked properly.

Make concrete (and stuff) to increase underground pipe/belt max distance.

Did you try https://mods.factorio.com/mod/beltlayer ?

[leadraven]

Did you try https://mods.factorio.com/mod/beltlayer ?

No, I didn't. And why should I? This mod is a heavy simplifications, and it is absolutely not what I want.
I did this suggestion not because I personally need longer underground sections, but to add more encouraging game mechanics (quite reasonable, btw).

[mrvn]

This would have a bunch of weird edge cases, like having one half of a pipe start on concrete and end on grass, for example. (Not only for programming it without bugs, but to make it understandable to new players.) It would be a lot simpler, to have longer underground pipes and belts, which are constructed with concrete in their recipes, and which can only be placed on concrete.

Or you have existing underground belts that do NOT connect and then you place concrete and suddenly they connect. Before they might be used to split lanes and go in opposite directions. After they connect one of them would go the other way all of a sudden.

[mrvn]

Hello, factorians.

I have an idea - only a concept, I didn't figured out how to formalize it so that it worked properly.

Make concrete (and stuff) to increase underground pipe/belt max distance.

I would like to hear your opinions:
- Would it be too complex mechanic?
- How to implement it so this mechanic can't be "hacked"?
- Do you like the idea in general?

I think the better idea would be to have extended underground belts that require concrete and steel to build. That would be a simple recipe and entity prototype addition without any changes in game mechanics.

[leadraven]

I think the better idea would be to have extended underground belts that require concrete and steel to build. That would be a simple recipe and entity prototype addition without any changes in game mechanics.

Following this logic, we would have multiple tiers of locomotives instead of fuel bonus.
Nobody needs one more tier. I suggest an encouraging synergy of two different things.

[mrvn]

I think the better idea would be to have extended underground belts that require concrete and steel to build. That would be a simple recipe and entity prototype addition without any changes in game mechanics.

Following this logic, we would have multiple tiers of locomotives instead of fuel bonus.
Nobody needs one more tier. I suggest an encouraging synergy of two different things.

Following that logic we wouldn't have different belt tiers but a belt speed bonus research.

Note: With Bobs belt overhaul the different belt and pipe tires have different underground length.

[Darinth]

This would have a bunch of weird edge cases, like having one half of a pipe start on concrete and end on grass, for example. (Not only for programming it without bugs, but to make it understandable to new players.) It would be a lot simpler, to have longer underground pipes and belts, which are constructed with concrete in their recipes, and which can only be placed on concrete.

Or you have existing underground belts that do NOT connect and then you place concrete and suddenly they connect. Before they might be used to split lanes and go in opposite directions. After they connect one of them would go the other way all of a sudden.

I... don't think this would ever be an issue. Every place that you have an underground belt going down, would already have a matching underground belt coming back up. The reverse isn't true, there are times where you have an underground belt coming up but no matching down belt, but since all of the down belts are already matched you shouldn't ever end up in a situation where two underground belts that aren't matched suddenly end up matching due to a concrete upgrade.

[BlueTemplar]

With belts, what happens to items in the underground section when the connection is broken by removing concrete?

What happens when you sever the connection by replacing a higher-tier underground belt by a lower tier underground belt ?
The items "underground" get picked up...
(They seem to disappear though if the underground belt is instead destroyed ?)
Note : different tiers of underground belts do NOT connect. (See also underground-belt-braiding...)

(Underground pipes work in a completely different way, "teleporting" fluids... at lest for now !)
Note : different tiers of (modded) underground pipes DO connect.

[mrvn]

This would have a bunch of weird edge cases, like having one half of a pipe start on concrete and end on grass, for example. (Not only for programming it without bugs, but to make it understandable to new players.) It would be a lot simpler, to have longer underground pipes and belts, which are constructed with concrete in their recipes, and which can only be placed on concrete.

Or you have existing underground belts that do NOT connect and then you place concrete and suddenly they connect. Before they might be used to split lanes and go in opposite directions. After they connect one of them would go the other way all of a sudden.

I... don't think this would ever be an issue. Every place that you have an underground belt going down, would already have a matching underground belt coming back up. The reverse isn't true, there are times where you have an underground belt coming up but no matching down belt, but since all of the down belts are already matched you shouldn't ever end up in a situation where two underground belts that aren't matched suddenly end up matching due to a concrete upgrade.

But you can have 2 belts coming up that suddenly connect when you place concrete. Happens when you change the shorter yellow undergrounds to longer red undergrounds with Bob mods.

[leadraven]

Following this logic, we would have multiple tiers of locomotives instead of fuel bonus.
Nobody needs one more tier. I suggest an encouraging synergy of two different things.

Following that logic we wouldn't have different belt tiers but a belt speed bonus research.

You know what? Actually, you are right. Dependency between belt speed and underground distance is at least doubtful. We could reset all underground belts to 4 cells and compensate it with concrete bonus up to 100% (or even higher), resulting in the same 8 cells. I like it!

[Darinth]

This would have a bunch of weird edge cases, like having one half of a pipe start on concrete and end on grass, for example. (Not only for programming it without bugs, but to make it understandable to new players.) It would be a lot simpler, to have longer underground pipes and belts, which are constructed with concrete in their recipes, and which can only be placed on concrete.

Or you have existing underground belts that do NOT connect and then you place concrete and suddenly they connect. Before they might be used to split lanes and go in opposite directions. After they connect one of them would go the other way all of a sudden.

I... don't think this would ever be an issue. Every place that you have an underground belt going down, would already have a matching underground belt coming back up. The reverse isn't true, there are times where you have an underground belt coming up but no matching down belt, but since all of the down belts are already matched you shouldn't ever end up in a situation where two underground belts that aren't matched suddenly end up matching due to a concrete upgrade.

But you can have 2 belts coming up that suddenly connect when you place concrete. Happens when you change the shorter yellow undergrounds to longer red undergrounds with Bob mods.

If I'm understanding you correctly, this sounds like a deeper bug in need of fixing. If I have two underground belts pointing towards each other but both of them are "up" moving belts, they shouldn't connect during a replacement option as that means one of them is being converted to a down belt. Similarly, these underground belts that are 'coming up' shouldn't get converted to down belts suddenly by having concrete. That sounds like a bug.