Mining Uranium Should be Required

[dpacbach]

Currently, one can launch a rocket and win the game without ever mining uranium (or creating nuclear power, uranium ammo, etc.).

I think that the developers should find a way to make uranium mining more essential to the game for the purpose of better integrating it.

Some possibilities might be:

1) Yellow science requires some thing made from uranium
2) Constructing a rocket/launch requires something made from uranium
3) Nuclear fuel cells produce much much more power/energy than they do now, giving strong incentive to the player to switch to it over alternatives.
4) Making boilers produce less heat/power to make them weaker, thereby making nuclear power more necessary mid- to end-game
5) Introducing nuclear artillery ammo
6) ?

I kind of like a combination of 3+4

gimme thoughts!

P.S. I searched the exiting suggestions and didn't see anything like this, though apologies if I missed it.

[Hedning1390]

There's more than uranium you're missing if you only play to the rocket. I think the best solution would be to find a way to redefine victory to some later point in the game.

[bobucles]

Making uranium a hard requirement is as easy as adding U238 to a science recipe. There is one balance issue because centrifuge tech is really way too expensive on its own. It would have to be separated from nuclear power and made a cheaper research.

[Aeternus]

-> 1) Yellow science requires some thing made from uranium
Yellow science requiring uranium would be problematic - before the Kovarex Enrichment you won't have much U-235 available. You'd end up needing to refine massive amounts of uranium just to do the research to enrich the U238.
Using U238 would be okay I guess.

-> 2) Constructing a rocket/launch requires something made from uranium
If this is desirable, suggest instead to change the recipe for the Sattelite to require 10 Nuclear Fuel (burner type) instead of 50 Rocket Fuel. You can start on the rocket that way, for folk wanting to speed run, while setting up the centrifuges needed for nuclear fuel.

-> 3) Nuclear fuel cells produce much much more power/energy than they do now, giving strong incentive to the player to switch to it over alternatives.
Nuclear is already the most powerful energy source in vanilla. Sadly, it isn't too UPS friendly, which is why megabases tend to stay with solar power. The fluid system needs to get an efficiency overhaul like the belts had!

-> 4) Making boilers produce less heat/power to make them weaker, thereby making nuclear power more necessary mid- to end-game
This would make the early game more difficult - when you don't have the option to go nuclear just yet. Not in favor...

-> 5) Introducing nuclear artillery ammo
I'm sure there's mods for this. But given how artillery works, you'd be wasting a lot of ammo I think. Would be more interested in an incendiary shell. Napalm the biters from above... burn em and their damned forests out

[Koub]

I'm totally OK there are some parts of the science tree that are not mandatory for rocket. This is a sandbox game.

[bobingabout]

Perhaps your satellite could have some sort of nuclear power source?

I'd say RTG, but that requires something other than Uranium, like Plutonium. Perhaps an RTG could be made from Plutonium, which is a byproduct of recycling a used fuel cell?
Not only does it force you to have to mine uranium, but it also forces you to set up a nuclear power plant!

[Zavian]

That could be an interesting change. It could change nuclear power plants from being let's optimise for max efficiency of uranium use, to let's try to make just the right amount enough plutonium.

[bobucles]

I'd say RTG, but that requires something other than Uranium, like Plutonium.

Using the name of real world elements was a mistake. Uranium should have been called "hot" and "cold" nuclear stuff.

I think it's very important to tie all the aspects of factorio together and not leave uranium as an outlier anymore. The satellite is a great place to require a uranium power source. In addition, U238 should really be added as an ingredient for one of the sciences. It's not expensive to get and it gives players just enough push to begin seriously mining the green stuff.

[Aeternus]

Perhaps your satellite could have some sort of nuclear power source?

I'd say RTG, but that requires something other than Uranium, like Plutonium. Perhaps an RTG could be made from Plutonium, which is a byproduct of recycling a used fuel cell?
Not only does it force you to have to mine uranium, but it also forces you to set up a nuclear power plant!

The old Nukular mod had a few recipes for the reactor - breeder (to make plutonium), spent fuel processing, or energy production. Might be possible to do something similar, 'though the processing facility in the vanilla factorio is now the centrifuge rather then the reactor.

[Selvek]

Building a 10-science-per-second megabase isn't required to "beat the game", but people still do it.

If someone is happy launching a rocket and being "done", I don't see any reason to force them to get uranium. There's plenty of complexity required to launch a single rocket, and if people feel the desire to add the extra complexity of uranium, there are plenty of motivations to do so. There are also no requirements to, for example, build a bot network, produce combat drones, or use trains. Just motivations so that each player can individually decide which complicated things they want to pursue.

And, the "end" of launching a rocket is totally arbitrary. There's no feeling of having completed the game when you launch a rocket, it's just there because, well, SOMETHING had to be designated as "the end".

[Zool]

What about simply having 2 different recipes for the satellite:
a) the old one needs a lot of ressources, but is „clean“ with solar energy
b) an alternative nuclear version could me much cheaper in the amount of ressources, but require expensive U238

Especially in bases that focus on mass-production if missiles, it doesn‘t hurt to have cheaper satellites. but you can still choose.

[adjl]

What about simply having 2 different recipes for the satellite:
a) the old one needs a lot of ressources, but is „clean“ with solar energy
b) an alternative nuclear version could me much cheaper in the amount of ressources, but require expensive U238

Especially in bases that focus on mass-production if missiles, it doesn‘t hurt to have cheaper satellites. but you can still choose.

I could get behind this idea. I'm fine with having stuff that isn't altogether necessary, since that's hardly unusual (I rarely touch poison/slowdown capsules, any sort of combat robot, or flamethrower turrets), but it'd be nice to have nuclear infrastructure benefit the rocket in some way. Fundamentally, though, forcing players of a sandbox game to do things a certain way just for the sake of using that mechanic is not great game design. Offering alternative options that reward people for putting in a bit of extra work, though, is much more fun.

[Heckett]

The problem with uranium is the simple fact that centrifuges are expensive to make en mass, so trying to get enough U-235 would be a hard stop in any base. Using U-238 also wouldn't be that fantastic either, once you get Kovarex going on a larger scale you can start chewing through it there.

I think the best way to get people using uranium would be to have a nuclear powered satellite that produces more space science then the normal one. For high spm bases you can choose between launching a normal satellite without the added uranium production, or you can deal with setting up uranium and get rewarded with more science.

The only other thing to do would be adjusting the stack size of nuclear fuel (and maybe crafting time) to provide incentive to use it in trains. Otherwise I can't think of much other uses for it that players would want to use.

[dpacbach]

Some nice ideas here!

Perhaps your satellite could have some sort of nuclear power source?

That's a good idea! And if that requires used nuclear fuel cells then, as some have mentioned, that would also require the player to setup nuclear power, which I think is an interesting part of the game.

... a nuclear powered satellite that produces more space science then the normal one.

This is a nice idea too if we don't want to force anything on the player.

I think the best solution would be to find a way to redefine victory to some later point in the game

Part of me likes this too, because perhaps it addresses a larger question of how much should the player be required to accomplish in order for the game to declare the player a victor (which, unfortunately I think, many people will interpret as meaning "I have mastered this game," which may be far from the truth). Obviously I am of the opinion that victory should include some nuclear stuff

Fundamentally, though, forcing players of a sandbox game to do things a certain way just for the sake of using that mechanic is not great game design.

Words of wisdom I suppose... but I still would like to see nuclear more integrated into the game

[Hannu]

Words of wisdom I suppose... but I still would like to see nuclear more integrated into the game

I agree. But I would add alternative recipes for higher end products instead of making it obligatory. Satellite would be very good option. For example another recipe in which solar panels and accumulators are replaced with radioisotope thermoelectric generator made from nuclear fuel cells, steel and red circuits (because satellite uses blue) so that player save significant amount of other resources.

Alternative recipes would give much room for self chosen rules and keep the game interesting during more playthroughs.

[adjl]

I still would like to see nuclear more integrated into the game

I do see where you're coming from. Nuclear's pretty cool; designing reactors is complex enough to be quite fun, and there's a bunch of extra infrastructure associated with it that requires some unique concepts (fluids for mining, probability- and catalyst-based recipes). The way I see it, though, that's all it needs to be. Factorio is, fundamentally, a sandbox game. That means it's based on the concept of "here's a bunch of stuff to play with, go have fun." The research tree and goal of launching a rocket are just there to give a sense of structure, direction, and progression to the game (since sandboxes without any such guidelines tend to be a bit too overwhelming for many people to enjoy), not necessarily to be a demonstration that you have mastered everything the game has to offer. To that end, having nuclear exist only as its own reward for people who want to do nuclear is not unreasonable. As far as a sandbox goes, that is fully integrating the mechanic.

Now, some optimizations to make nuclear not be so hopelessly inferior to solar in terms of UPS on a megabase scale? That'd be nice. Nuclear could definitely use some love in order to keep it viable. In terms of incentive to use it, though, I don't think anything more than "lots of power, fun to build, and nukes" is really necessary.

[Jap2.0]

I believe some optimizations are planned for nuclear power.

I could also see a tier 2 satellite with nuclear and some other stuff that would give more science.

[Veklim]

I must admit I wholeheartedly agree with the tier 2 satellite idea, would even be tempted to go further and suggest not one but perhaps two or three alternatives for the rocket cargo. I feel the joy of being able to put almost anything into that slot is lost in the fact that beyond one item and the relevant achievement there is no point using anything other than a satellite, at least not outside of mods (orbital ion cannon is a personal favourite for example) since there's nearly ALWAYS 'a mod for that'...

Perhaps you could have a range of recipes for tier 2 satellites all requiring the basic sat to be built, for example;
-Add a lab (or perhaps a portable fusion reactor) and a uranium derivative/product (type up for debate but I would vote for nuclear fuel rather than a canister) for a type 2 space tech satellite (better flask yield to allow for higher science per minute from a single silo at the expense of more complex production)
-Add laser turrets and accumulators for an orbital weapon (a little like the aforementioned mod) with maybe a reduced or removed flask output.
-Lastly one which takes extra radar and blue chips to give a permanent radar view of a fixed area (essentially a geostationary satellite image) again with perhaps reduced or removed flask output.

Going further (perhaps too far, who knows?!) you could introduce a 'space lift' building and a 'tier 2' bot port satellite to allow for rocket-free launching of satellites, it would take much more power but no rocket fuel to achieve and could be designed for a faster turnaround between launches but limited to tier one satellites only. Or a space cannon for the same purpose, built from multiple arty turrets and powered by a uranium-enriched explosive of some sort. Honestly, there are a great many possibilities in my opinion.

[Jap2.0]

I must admit I wholeheartedly agree with the tier 2 satellite idea, would even be tempted to go further and suggest not one but perhaps two or three alternatives for the rocket cargo. I feel the joy of being able to put almost anything into that slot is lost in the fact that beyond one item and the relevant achievement there is no point using anything other than a satellite, at least not outside of mods (orbital ion cannon is a personal favourite for example) since there's nearly ALWAYS 'a mod for that'...

Perhaps you could have a range of recipes for tier 2 satellites all requiring the basic sat to be built, for example;
-Add a lab (or perhaps a portable fusion reactor) and a uranium derivative/product (type up for debate but I would vote for nuclear fuel rather than a canister) for a type 2 space tech satellite (better flask yield to allow for higher science per minute from a single silo at the expense of more complex production)
-Add laser turrets and accumulators for an orbital weapon (a little like the aforementioned mod) with maybe a reduced or removed flask output.
-Lastly one which takes extra radar and blue chips to give a permanent radar view of a fixed area (essentially a geostationary satellite image) again with perhaps reduced or removed flask output.

Going further (perhaps too far, who knows?!) you could introduce a 'space lift' building and a 'tier 2' bot port satellite to allow for rocket-free launching of satellites, it would take much more power but no rocket fuel to achieve and could be designed for a faster turnaround between launches but limited to tier one satellites only. Or a space cannon for the same purpose, built from multiple arty turrets and powered by a uranium-enriched explosive of some sort. Honestly, there are a great many possibilities in my opinion.

Yeah, I can see this going a long way to improve the endgame - orbital ion cannon is a very popular mod, and I could see support for an advanced scientific satellite and a geostationary imaging satellite. If you wanted, you could expand beyond that, though I'm not as sure about that. All in all, it's essentially a combination of several very popular mods - orbital ion cannon, spaceX, and numerous satellite radar mods.

[m44v]

Change the portable fusion reactor into a portable fission reactor, uses fuel cells for produce energy. Still not a big uranium sink (a single cell would last ~3 hours) but it would be a compelling reason for setup a centrifuge running.