Suggestions, which are already clear

[ssilk]

The following posts have been moved from suggestions board to clean it up:

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=3405

------------------------------

So, i had an idea to improve the current system of underground transport belts to something more useful. Don't you find annoying when you're building a long line of pipe-to-ground system that you have to resurface the pipe every 10 blocks? wouldn't just be better to simply build a line directly to the place where you want said pipe to go to?...

We had that discussions with "levels" in many different forms already (in depth and in height, for bridges, for sky, for the robots and so on).

The devs already stated, that Factorio is a game, where everything you can do should be visible on the map. I called that "WYSIWYP" (what you see is what you play). Exceptions are the ALT-mode and the debug-mode.

So in my eyes this is not an option now.

[Chthon]

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 503#p26503

I don't see a dev marker on your account, nor do I see any proof that the devs in fact said something like this. Even if they did, it also does not mean that they cannot be convinced otherwise. All I see is a group of people that simply go into every suggestion thread and say "No you can't because it's not part of the game" and try to end intelligent discourse.

[ssilk]

I don't see a dev marker on your account, nor do I see any proof that the devs in fact said something like this. Even if they did, it also does not mean that they cannot be convinced otherwise. All I see is a group of people that simply go into every suggestion thread and say "No you can't because it's not part of the game" and try to end intelligent discourse.

1. First: It might be, that I overreacted, I had too less sleep the last days.

2. me moderator: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/mem ... =group&g=4
And I just try to do my job and clean up the overwelming response to the game.

3. Yes, you're right, and it took me a while to find it, until I remembered

http://ask.fm/FactorioGame

Any ideas about creating buildings/multiple floor factories?
Not in the near future. That is part of the game - what you see is what you got.

And now you need to believe me: They stated that 1 or 2 month ago again (edit: in a discussion nearly exactly about the same theme). But I can't find that, it's just too many posts. I even find the term "WYSIWYP" again, but I'm nearly sure it was something like so.

[Chthon]

I don't see a dev marker on your account, nor do I see any proof that the devs in fact said something like this. Even if they did, it also does not mean that they cannot be convinced otherwise. All I see is a group of people that simply go into every suggestion thread and say "No you can't because it's not part of the game" and try to end intelligent discourse.

1. First: It might be, that I overreacted, I had too less sleep the last days.

2. me moderator: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/mem ... =group&g=4
And I just try to do my job and clean up the overwelming response to the game.

3. Yes, you're right, and it took me a while to find it, until I remembered

http://ask.fm/FactorioGame

Any ideas about creating buildings/multiple floor factories?
Not in the near future. That is part of the game - what you see is what you got.

And now you need to believe me: They stated that 1 or 2 month ago again (edit: in a discussion nearly exactly about the same theme). But I can't find that, it's just too many posts. I even find the term "WYSIWYP" again, but I'm nearly sure it was something like so.

Well thanks for looking at least and finding something.

Still at a max length of 4 tiles, underground belts aren't as useful as they could be. You are also right that making them as long as pipes can be renders them hard to read.

Instead the developers should have stopped halfway. Instead they either shouldn't have allowed for subterranean belts, or fully implemented a subterranean layer for transport (only).

In my opinion, they should fully implement it, as transport is something that isn't directly targeted by biters, as it does not cause pollution. Any damage to it is collateral in nature.

[ssilk]

EDIT:
Sorry for double post, but - as said - I'm a little bit tired.

4.

All I see is a group of people that simply go into every suggestion thread and say "No you can't because it's not part of the game" and try to end intelligent discourse.

Well if you haven't realized yet: the devs are not fully reading this board. Because most of the stuff is already planned. Just that.

There will be of course some changes. And I won't say it is bad, that the most wanted suggestions are repeated. But I mean, it is ok to post a suggestion or say "me too", if you don't have a better idea. Everything else is some waste of time.

What I'm and many other of the "older" forum members are looking for and try to see are new ideas.
Ok, this is now a difficult path, i know what you're thinking. But I currently think so and that is based on the experiences with this forum. I think it's better to stop discussions on the 15th "I know how we can improve the splitter" thread and support discussions on the behavior of the biters.

And you are invited and can discuss with us:

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=3508

[Chthon]

There will be of course some changes. And I won't say it is bad, that the most wanted suggestions are repeated. But I mean, it is ok to post a suggestion or say "me too", if you don't have a better idea. Everything else is some waste of time.

What I'm and many other of the "older" forum members are looking for and try to see are new ideas.
Ok, this is now a difficult path, i know what you're thinking. But I currently think so and that is based on the experiences with this forum. I think it's better to stop discussions on the 15th "I know how we can improve the splitter" thread and support discussions on the behavior of the biters.

And you are invited and can discuss with us:

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=3508

What this sounds like is you have already discounted these ideas, so you don't want to hear them any longer and simply shut down other players who also think they are good. The irony here is if these ideas keep coming up, they should be rationally considered. If people keep having problems with one aspect, than a rework may be needed. Just because a few people who joined your club find no issues doesn't mean no issues exist. The same problem happened with Sword of the Stars 2, and this is exactly how Mecron killed his own game by discounting all other discourse.

Frankly I'm a little put off by your group. I still don't see moderator tags on you or anyone else in that thread. I don't even know where to look for said tags, but I want you to know you are helping to ensure that this only appeals to a niche group, with a larger group that wish they could play if the gameplay was simply improved a bit.

[ssilk]

I'm really sorry, that my intervention is interpreted as interruption of useful discussions. So I try to explain my point as exact as possible.

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=3508
What this sounds like is you have already discounted these ideas, so you don't want to hear them any longer and simply shut down other players who also think they are good. The irony here is if these ideas keep coming up, they should be rationally considered.

This is what I try to do and what the above thread is about.

If people keep having problems with one aspect, than a rework may be needed. Just because a few people who joined your club find no issues doesn't mean no issues exist. The same problem happened with Sword of the Stars 2, and this is exactly how Mecron killed his own game by discounting all other discourse.

The game is reworked in every version. Nearly every issue, which becomes too large was fixed. Not all, but the devs talked about, why, or that this will be changed in some future.
It's very ok to say something two times, tree time, four times, after that it becomes anyoing.

Frankly I'm a little put off by your group.

Your problem. Frankly you are too new to understand, that when the devs said something twice it is an absolute no go.

I still don't see moderator tags on you or anyone else in that thread.

And so? Do I need a tag to say I'm in the moderator group?

I don't even know where to look for said tags,

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/ucp.php?i=176

but I want you to know you are helping to ensure that this only appeals to a niche group, with a larger group that wish they could play if the gameplay was simply improved a bit.

I don't like, how you divide old and new forum members. I mean till now everyone was really nicely integrated - and that phase goes now since the very beginning of the forum. I remember when I begun in this forum. It was just the same.

The problem is just the current overwhelming numbers of new users and their enthusiastic, but sometimes useless discussions, which are the base of conflicts.

So I try to reset discussion and bring it back to the point:

This is about repeating and repeating suggestions, which are already stated to be implemented or already stated to be not implemented.

I see my job to avoid discussion of these things or bring things together. I think - also reason of some other discussion about exactly the same theme - it is more useful to interrupt sooner. And I don't understand, that when some older forum member comes, with more posts than you, that you don't believe him. Moderator or not.

The facts:
- The game is alpha.
- The devs are three programmers and one and a half graphics.
- The game is planned to be finished in summer 2015.
- The devs always (!) did, what they promised.
- So, the already stated to be implemented things will be implemented.
- But of course not exactly clear when.

Summer 2015. And I think this is not the end. Time enough to make new suggestions.

[Chthon]

I'm really sorry, that my intervention is interpreted as interruption of useful discussions. So I try to explain my point as exact as possible.
This is what I try to do and what the above thread is about.

The game is reworked in every version. Nearly every issue, which becomes too large was fixed. Not all, but the devs talked about, why, or that this will be changed in some future.
It's very ok to say something two times, tree time, four times, after that it becomes annoying.

If that is what you are trying to do, I'm sorry to lump you with others. However someone walking in and saying "No, not going to happen" repeatedly without any back up or proof is just as annoying to newer players as what you suggest. Instead they should be encouraged to link discussions back to threads where they are already discussed.

Your problem. Frankly you are too new to understand, that when the devs said something twice it is an absolute no go.

Just because the developers haven't seen the need to change something twice, doesn't mean that they won't be convinced at all in the future. The only discussions that should be tabled permanently are illegal ones, or ones that are practically impossible.

And so? Do I need a tag to say I'm in the moderator group?

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/ucp.php?i=176

Yes, it would be nice. There are trolls out there that would happily claim to be a moderator, and without said tags, their opinions and statements could be held accountable to the developers incorrectly.

I don't see where that link shows me who is a moderator. I only see the option to join one of two groups.

I don't like, how you divide old and new forum members. I mean till now everyone was really nicely integrated - and that phase goes now since the very beginning of the forum. I remember when I begun in this forum. It was just the same.

The problem is just the current overwhelming numbers of new users and their enthusiastic, but sometimes useless discussions, which are the base of conflicts.

Here you have shown the actual problem causing the divide. You have already branded with your words the ideas of "new users" as possibly useless and conflict causing. This is what causes the divide, and the users that do not actually wish to discuss anything. There is a divide, but it is caused by the ones who won't discuss why for whatever reason, not the players coming into the game interested, only to be rebuffed.

So I try to reset discussion and bring it back to the point:

This is about repeating and repeating suggestions, which are already stated to be implemented or already stated to be not implemented.

I see my job to avoid discussion of these things or bring things together. I think - also reason of some other discussion about exactly the same theme - it is more useful to interrupt sooner. And I don't understand, that when some older forum member comes, with more posts than you, that you don't believe him. Moderator or not.

The facts:
- The game is alpha.
- The devs are three programmers and one and a half graphics.
- The game is planned to be finished in summer 2015.
- The devs always (!) did, what they promised.
- So, the already stated to be implemented things will be implemented.
- But of course not exactly clear when.

Summer 2015. And I think this is not the end. Time enough to make new suggestions.

I agree, there is plenty of time for a lot of adaptation. I also think that many of these responses will come up a great many times. Rather than drive away new players for bringing up the same old topics, why not let them discuss it among themselves if you find it too annoying at this point? There is no reason to intervene if there is polite discussion going on, even if you don't want to hear it again.

[Sedado77]

I'm really sorry, that my intervention is interpreted as interruption of useful discussions. So I try to explain my point as exact as possible.
This is what I try to do and what the above thread is about.

The game is reworked in every version. Nearly every issue, which becomes too large was fixed. Not all, but the devs talked about, why, or that this will be changed in some future.
It's very ok to say something two times, tree time, four times, after that it becomes annoying.

If that is what you are trying to do, I'm sorry to lump you with others. However someone walking in and saying "No, not going to happen" repeatedly without any back up or proof is just as annoying to newer players as what you suggest. Instead they should be encouraged to link discussions back to threads where they are already discussed.

Your problem. Frankly you are too new to understand, that when the devs said something twice it is an absolute no go.

Just because the developers haven't seen the need to change something twice, doesn't mean that they won't be convinced at all in the future. The only discussions that should be tabled permanently are illegal ones, or ones that are practically impossible.

And so? Do I need a tag to say I'm in the moderator group?

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/ucp.php?i=176

Yes, it would be nice. There are trolls out there that would happily claim to be a moderator, and without said tags, their opinions and statements could be held accountable to the developers incorrectly.

I don't see where that link shows me who is a moderator. I only see the option to join one of two groups.

I don't like, how you divide old and new forum members. I mean till now everyone was really nicely integrated - and that phase goes now since the very beginning of the forum. I remember when I begun in this forum. It was just the same.

The problem is just the current overwhelming numbers of new users and their enthusiastic, but sometimes useless discussions, which are the base of conflicts.

Here you have shown the actual problem causing the divide. You have already branded with your words the ideas of "new users" as possibly useless and conflict causing. This is what causes the divide, and the users that do not actually wish to discuss anything. There is a divide, but it is caused by the ones who won't discuss why for whatever reason, not the players coming into the game interested, only to be rebuffed.

So I try to reset discussion and bring it back to the point:

This is about repeating and repeating suggestions, which are already stated to be implemented or already stated to be not implemented.

I see my job to avoid discussion of these things or bring things together. I think - also reason of some other discussion about exactly the same theme - it is more useful to interrupt sooner. And I don't understand, that when some older forum member comes, with more posts than you, that you don't believe him. Moderator or not.

The facts:
- The game is alpha.
- The devs are three programmers and one and a half graphics.
- The game is planned to be finished in summer 2015.
- The devs always (!) did, what they promised.
- So, the already stated to be implemented things will be implemented.
- But of course not exactly clear when.

Summer 2015. And I think this is not the end. Time enough to make new suggestions.

I agree, there is plenty of time for a lot of adaptation. I also think that many of these responses will come up a great many times. Rather than drive away new players for bringing up the same old topics, why not let them discuss it among themselves if you find it too annoying at this point? There is no reason to intervene if there is polite discussion going on, even if you don't want to hear it again.

@Chthon
YOU MADE IT!!!! First time I read in this forum somebody fighting like he was a 2-year old child.
Untill now, nobody took personally if some idea was or was not implemented, because THIS IS A GAME.
This is A game!
There are MILLIONS of games in this world. If Factorio doesn't fullfill your needs, then go find another game that does.
The devs are GREAT, they take the time to read the forum. Maybe you're too new in this forum to have noticed that. Go read the posts when Factorio was in 0.8.
They not only RESPONDED in almost every post, they even TOLD WHY (NOT) things will/won't be implemented. They take the time to respond to every thread, every question, every special request. Even PMs.
THIS IS WHY @ssilk tells you:

The problem is just the current overwhelming numbers of new users and their enthusiastic, but sometimes useless discussions, which are the base of conflicts.

If devs need to read THE SAME EXACT IDEA 10 times, and take the time to respond every time (ex. why they are not advancing with multi-splitter or whatevs) they have no time to read NEW AND INTERESTING ideas that may/may not end up being implemented.
I too recomended a different kind of splitter almost 6 months ago. The response then was the same as it is now.
That's why when you propose the same idea for the 34534896 time, they end up saying "NOT GONNA HAPPEN. END." Because they ALREADY TOOK THEIR TIME EXPLAINING WHY and you didn't take the time to read/search the forums for their answer before you posted your "Original Idea".
Then, please, stop making a fuzz, realize that what you said is not gonna happen, and please JUST STOP
This is a friendly forum, and i don't want you to think you're being bullyed, but you've wasted enough space and time from everybody. You've explained your idea, and you've got an answer. Go to any other forum and try to get a mod/dev answer, and tell me how much time it takes for them to respond. HERE YOU'VE HAD PRACTICALLY A CONVERSATION WITH A MOD.

Did you notice????
This is HOW MUCH THEY CARE!!!

So, please. Stop acting like a child, and use your very good way of explaining things, and your debate skills in some other usefull way, because you CAN. They didn't "Close" your thread, they didn't ban you. They just told you they LISTENED to your idea, they TALK BETWEEN THEM about it and thought it was best NOT TO IMPLEMENT IT. It is not an insult.
Have a good one and hope you don't take this the wrong way.

BTW: At the bottom of the forums, there is a link that reads "The Team". There you can see who is in the team. ssilk IS IN FACT a mod.


@ssilk: Sorry if I stepped over the line, but this is 1 day after i sent you the PM and I feel responsible

[ssilk]

@Chton: Ok, Sedado77 saved me now a lot of time in responding, my answer would have been nearly the same, eventually not so hard...thanks.

As you have seen I moved those posts depending this problem to the general board, where this discussion belongs to, to make clear, that your topic is still free for discussion.

Depending your email: your fears have no reason. We are the good ones.

Just because the developers haven't seen the need to change something twice, doesn't mean that they won't be convinced at all in the future. The only discussions that should be tabled permanently are illegal ones, or ones that are practically impossible.

They never said never, but when you follow them, you learn about good game design. Hint.

And so? Do I need a tag to say I'm in the moderator group?

Yes, it would be nice. There are trolls out there ....
I don't see where that link shows me who is a moderator. I only see the option to join one of two groups

Ahhhh... Now I got it!! I'm stupid, of course. I see the moderator group, but the non-moderators will see only a white page. I'm sorry, but I'm moderator, not administrator. I just don't see, who can see what.
We're all amateurs with stuff like that... I think I can say, if there is someone willing to help he/she is welcome.

And cause you mentioned trolls: we have had that, but I think we have managed that quite well.

I don't like, how you divide old and new forum members. ... The problem is just the current overwhelming numbers of new users and their enthusiastic, but sometimes useless discussions, which are the base of conflicts.

Here you have shown the actual problem causing the divide. You have already branded with your words the ideas of "new users" as possibly useless and conflict causing.

Because it is. It's just a fact. Not very nice. I know. But I try to be gentle and explain it:
Assume Factorio would be a shooter game. And now the newbies come and 50% of the posts say "oh, the aiming is too hard, I know some way how to make aiming a lot easier."
Understood?

This is what causes the divide, and the users that do not actually wish to discuss anything. There is a divide, but it is caused by the ones who won't discuss why for whatever reason, not the players coming into the game interested, only to be rebuffed.

In my eyes the divide is between players, that have achieved some level of game-competence and those, who think this is just a shooter game or sim-city 7 and it is like the other games and they can play it a bit.

It's not! The learning curve is steep and if you mean you know all about how science pack 3 production works, someone comes and has a much better idea.

We (the members of the forum) are learning, how to play this game and try to give the experience to others.

Factorio needs in my eyes about 100 or more game hours, before you can understand, what we are talking about. Sorry, sounds hard, but there is just no other way.

[sciencemile]

The way I see it, we have two different perspectives here.

We have the person who's been on the forums longer, and has seen the same question/suggestion multiple times. Definitely, the same thing over and over again can get annoying when you need to explain things over and over.

Then we have the person who has been on the forums for less time, and to them this question is the first time it's been asked. So, the response seems to be, to them, unmitigated and extreme.

Now, one could say that somebody who is new on the forums should read a bit before making a suggestion in case such a suggestion has been made before. On the other hand, those who have been on longer have had more time to "catch up" as it were, and for somebody newer to get the same amount of history would need to make a large initial investment in time. (Personally I had no problem with reading through tons of stuff so long as it was close to the same Version).

A happy compromise here might be to, in the suggestions forum, create a stickied "Common Suggestions", which would have quotes of suggestions in which the Developers had commented on, whether in acceptance or rejection of the suggestion and their reasons.

Say, like so:

1. Underground Layer || Status: Rejected

Quote Dev So-and-So
Such and Such

[GewaltSam]

I hope I'm not overstepping here myself (I am pretty new here too), or even putting oil in the fire, but i read both the post about underground belts and this discussion here, and i got a few things to say.

To Sedado: Well, to be honest, I think you really overstepped a bit Capslock and a lot of exclamation marks didn't help your cause... I don't really see much wrong in HOW Chthon argued (although I don't share most of his opinions). But i guess your P.S. shows that there was something going on in the background, so you might have had your reasons

And I really don't want to step on your toes, ssilk, but you come over a bit, well, "strong" from time to time (and I think you don't mean it that way, some of it even might just be marked as "lost in translation" - your posts seem more leveled if I translate them to german in my head ). Although I think you do a good job as a moderator as far as i can see. But Chthon is not completely wrong in this special case. Sure, maybe that discussion came up a few times, but don't forget that the forums get a big stream of new guys and gals right now, and like it or not: you WILL read some of the old stuff again and again (and some other much worse things will happen with a growing community, too, but we'll see about that...). Don't forget how people who write about that stuff see the situation: most think they may be on to something new which wasn't discussed so far, just to be shot down rudely. There's nothing wrong in telling them it has already been discussed, but don't get too angry about it, even if they keep arguing about it. Let the discussion flow for itself, see what comes around. There is no harm in some friendly discussion, even it is for naught because the devs won't pick up the idea anyway.
Forum mod is an ungrateful job most of the time, and i don't want to tell you how to do it; so please look at this only as a friendly advise, nothing more

That was the view from an otherwise uninvolved faction in this discussion. Carry on, and play nice, guys

EDIT1 Man, this discussion went on fast... i was writing after Sedados last post, so nvm if some of it isn't up-to-date anymore

EDIT2 To what sciencemile wrote: I wouldn't put up ideas as "denied", because as Chthon said: things might change. And if some of the discussions come up again and again, let them discuss it. They might have a good reason, or some new angle about it. You don't need to participate in every discussion, especially when the forum gets bigger. Doesn't mean the devs will do ANYTHING the players discussed though, that even would be a bad idea. It's their design, and i sure hope they do what they think is best (although reading what the players think and suggest couldn't hurt, and they're doing that as far as i can tell).

[ssilk]

@GewaltSam: uhhh. So bad? Not my strength. I'm glad for corrections. Nevertheless: The devs said to Sedado77 and me, that they search for a bug tracking system.

I work on this problem in parallel, cause I think the devs won't have time, see the other threads.

@scienemile: Yeah, that's good. Not rejected, more "already on roadmap", "high/low chance". And now give me the time to create that list.

If someone wants to help: read through a forum, categorize the top threads into groups (and subgroups) and just post it more or less like above. Others will follow, FreeER or me can make it sticky and look about the difficult parts. The rest will be found.

[Isntprepared]

Edit: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=5&t=3508 -- apparently I should read all the new posts in the forum before responding to one
Original post:
-------------------------

The devs said to Sedado77 and me, that they search for a bug tracking system.

Might I suggest, as a quick way of getting started, that you look at Mantis.

http://www.mantisbt.org/

First, everyone that has a forum account can easily get a parallel mantis account. Some members who have been around a while could be granted reviewer status (at the dev's pleasure).

One examples of a game developer that I know already uses it well:
http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/ind ... T_Overview
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/my_view_page.php

-- You can even link bug numbers directly in a forum and they will link to the appropriate page, as well as "voting" in favor of, or against implementation of a particular idea:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index. ... 304.0.html

Another dev that uses Mantis (though IMO, not as well as Arcen does), is Introversion (Prison Architect):
http://bugs.introversion.co.uk/my_view_page.php

You can have fairly deep integration with BBCode boards, and can delegate roles fairly easily, such that the devs can avoid being swamped with ideas. And once an idea is closed, all you have to do is link to the closed bug / enhancement report.

--Cheers!

[GewaltSam]

@GewaltSam: uhhh. So bad? Not my strength. I'm glad for corrections.

Really not THAT bad On the other hand you're one to always help out if anyone has questions, so... you know. All good i guess, no need to be perfect anyway

Well now, back to topic I guess. Written suggestions need to be found!

[ssilk]

Really: if someone sees some miss writings/bad English please PM and correct me.

[Sedado77]

To Sedado: Well, to be honest, I think you really overstepped a bit Capslock and a lot of exclamation marks didn't help your cause... I don't really see much wrong in HOW Chthon argued (although I don't share most of his opinions). But i guess your P.S. shows that there was something going on in the background, so you might have had your reasons

Yup, I did...
But for WHAT i said, not for the caps or exclamation marks... I won't apologise for that, because IT'S THE WAY I ALWAYS WRITE
And it doesn't mean I'm shouting, I do it because I know some people doesn't read all, and it feels EASIER TO READ when the IMPORTANT THINGS are in caps xD
Also, it's easier than puting [ b] [/b ] and etc...
That DOESN'T MEAN i am shouting, nor being aggresive. If you look at FACTORIO videos in youtube, you'll see that I write the same way. It's just my way to make myself clear.
Also understand that, as ssilk's native language is german, and some things are lost in translation; I'm a spanish native speaker, so some things ALSO are lost in translation.
Also, if you look at my post:

So, please. Stop acting like a child, and use your very good way of explaining things, and your debate skills in some other usefull way, because you CAN. They didn't "Close" your thread, they didn't ban you. They just told you they LISTENED to your idea, they TALK BETWEEN THEM about it and thought it was best NOT TO IMPLEMENT IT. It is not an insult.
Have a good one and hope you don't take this the wrong way.

Does that sound aggresive? I don't think so, and I am sorry if it did.

BUT I think devs and mods in Factorio are great, they REALLY take things seriously and try to listen to everyone, and that's something you don't see everyday.
And I wish it keeps that way, but it won't if we need 4 pages to make ONE GUY undertand that his idea WAS ALREADY POSTED and DISCARTED for the time being.
And quoting Forrest Gump: That's all I have to say about that!

[ssilk]

Sorry, but writing UPPERCASE is shouting. And I won't discuss, if someone has a good reason for that. I guess I will win, when I say, this rule is older than you.

To the rest I nod around. Yes, 4 pages are too much. It will get better.

[robhol]

That forum mod someone was talking about that detects similar/duplicate titles etc. would probably help a lot. Whoever's in charge of the forum should really take a look at that.

[Sedado77]

Sorry, but writing UPPERCASE is shouting. And I won't discuss, if someone has a good reason for that. I guess I will win, when I say, this rule is older than you.

To the rest I nod around. Yes, 4 pages are too much. It will get better.

@ssilk: You don't know my age, but, just FYI, I was born BEFORE the internet... so it isn't xD
I agree that it is shouting if I say something like:
IF I SAY LIKE THIS THAT EVERYTHING SUCKS AND F U AND BLABLABLA AND FDLF KRWELAS.

But if someone is making a point and says something and use upper in JUST A FEW WORDS, I assume it is like Bold, or Italic. Just a little bit easier to write.
If not it would be like Homer Simpson when he speaks *whisperin* like this and then says OUT LOUD WHAT *whisper* i shoud have said in low voice */whisper*

Sorry if it is taken in another way. I never mean to shout.