Everything that runs on electricity is a pole! / Physical Electrical Network

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.

Moderator: ickputzdirwech

Post Reply
EditorRUS
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:32 pm
Contact:

Everything that runs on electricity is a pole! / Physical Electrical Network

Post by EditorRUS »

So starting from 0.13 many things can be connected to circuit network and that got me thinking: if you can connect data wires to things and they will transmit signals just fine, why not trying connecting actual power wires in similar way? In real life you don't shove poles everywhere to power a huge and dense facility, you create an intra-network.
What
Examples
Wiring range
Implementation ideas
How it should work
Issues and possible solutions
Last edited by EditorRUS on Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12888
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Everything that runs on electricity is a pole! / Physical Electrical Network

Post by ssilk »

Hm. I remember, that there are similar suggestions made, but no luck finding it.
I'm not sure, but would say the reason not to implement this is the clutter of wires you'll get. So mainly a graphical issue: it will not look good. :)
Some would say: fuuuuu, that's irrelevant. But if you look to your Factory as an artist you maybe see what I mean. ;)

And besides that the number of mousclicks you need to make. Currently you cover with a pole some devices.

But then this is ... well you didn't explain how this works exactly.

I think I would go with your idea, if we do the following:

- Instead of wires (circuits) and cables (power) that we need to produce to connect poles, we need just to "zip" the wire/cable out of a pole. It's just "inside" for up to X connections. Maybe we need a tool. But in my eyes simply click on pole (circular menu popup: cable, red or green wire). By default the poles will be connected with power - like now! But you can remove all cable/wires (like now) or single wires/cables and drag cable/wire to next pole. Every device in range of a pole will have power, like now.
- now to connect devices with wires as now we need some new stuff. That is the small connection box for the wires! (You can see it currently on every device if you connect it with wires). Plug this box onto a device and you can wire/cable as it is a pole. ... and finished. Such extended devices will be able to work as you said.
- wiring works exactly the same as now.
- if you power a device by cable, it will ignore the range-effect of the poles. This can be displayed so, that such devices are not coverable by pole-ranges.

Means: you need not longer to produce wires/cables, you need such connection-boxes. Or maybe two kinds of boxes, one for wires, another for cable. But that's all.
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

EditorRUS
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Everything that runs on electricity is a pole! / Physical Electrical Network

Post by EditorRUS »

I updated OP post, ssilk. Check "How it should work" and "Issues".

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12888
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Everything that runs on electricity is a pole! / Physical Electrical Network

Post by ssilk »

Hm. I need to speak as moderator about updating the OP: that is not a good idea. :) The right way is to change only minimal things in OP (pics for example to links to more explanations or point to important articles in discussion) and the rest is ... well ... discussion. That's the basic functionality of a forum. ;)

If the discussion comes to the conclusion, that there should made basic changes to the suggestion, then - simply - it's a new suggestion. New thread... :)


Besides that, I think this suggestions goes in the right direction, but makes simple things more complicated than needed... :)

EDIT: Ah and commenting in the OP is an absolut no-way. :roll:
EditorRUS wrote:
ssilk wrote:I'm not sure, but would say the reason not to implement this is the clutter of wires you'll get. So mainly a graphical issue: it will not look good. :)
This is a trivial one. Poles should always show connected wires but intranetwork (that is, wires that are connected to some device other than a pole) is only shown when you have copper wire selected. We'll pretend that those wires are underground. Try selecting a train stop near rails and you'll see what I mean.
This is against one of the basic concepts of Factorio, that it shows always a "realistic" view. I called it somewhere WYSIWYP (what you see is what you play). If there is a wire it shows a wire, cause that explains it's functionality.

I'm also very strong against connection every device with power by cable. Each assembly, each inserter, you cannot experiment, you need to take care if you add more devices to a pole, and more such issues. And all the keypresses you need to do. CTRL-Leftclick are two keypresses. That are 3 keys (one to place pole plus 2 for CTRL and Leftclick) to connect a pole to another pole. Plus not forgetting to connect it again, if you change something. It makes no sense. :)
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

EditorRUS
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Everything that runs on electricity is a pole! / Physical Electrical Network

Post by EditorRUS »

This is against one of the basic concepts of Factorio, that it shows always a "realistic" view. I called it somewhere WYSIWYP (what you see is what you play). If there is a wire it shows a wire, cause that explains it's functionality.
That's why I said we "pretend" that they are underground to avoid polluting the screen. You don't show underground belts, but you still get a visual clue when you select one of the ends. Similarly, you don't need to show the cables between devices because most of the time this information is only relevant when you are wiring things up. Or even just poles themselves don't show what they are connected to.
Each assembly, each inserter, you cannot experiment, you need to take care if you add more devices to a pole, and more such issues.
There are plenty of clues that will help you to not screw up your build. If you didn't connect some device to the network, it will show you this icon when you didn't connect something to the power. Since you'll obviously need to hook up recently placed devices to the power, you will have to use copper cable which will show you all of the wiring, perhaps even with some highlighting (akin to circuit network).

Poles create an external network. You will see the wiring of this network because it is, well, external. It is clear as day to see. Perhaps a screenshot will show what I mean:
Image
Solid lines create an external network. As you can see they come from poles which are clearly visible because they are above ground and all stuff. Dotted lines create an internal network. By "internal" I mean that the graphical representation of the wiring between these things doesn't matter or shouldn't be paid too much attention too. You can think that wiring in adjacent things is not underground, but, well, between things themselves, but the gap is so small that it doesn't matter. Anyway, you don't show internal wiring.
Also, you could connect all of these things to the pole in the screenshot and it would show up exactly as you would imagine: a complete mess with seven cables coming out of the pole.
And all the keypresses you need to do. CTRL-Leftclick are two keypresses. That are 3 keys (one to place pole plus 2 for CTRL and Leftclick) to connect a pole to another pole. Plus not forgetting to connect it again, if you change something.
The controls are a problem, that's true. We'll need to discuss that more deeply. I didn't think too much when I came up with my current solution.


Also, I am trying to come up with a system that won''t require adding new items to the game which is what connection boxes are. If I am allowed to do that, then I have one particular way in mind that is probably going to be better that current way.
Irrelevant to the suggestion
UPD: -- Regarding OP post changes --
Now that I think of it, maybe it's because post length is limited and if I were to always append changes, it would run out of space pretty quickly. Changing the content might eventually make the discussion to be disjointed due to some careless changes. Or if somebody gave you a good idea and you changed the content according to this idea, then you might prevent someone else from coming up with an even better solution to original problem because original problem is no more.
Huh.

UPD: For some reason this text font is bold and I can't fix this.
UPD: Not anymore. Also, to make the matters slightly less annoying this FSI should probably be discussed a little bit more: viewtopic.php?f=80&t=30845. If you were to implement this idea, then the cable issue becomes much more severe because there is no good way to balance this thing out when you are dealing with internal networks.

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12888
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Everything that runs on electricity is a pole! / Physical Electrical Network

Post by ssilk »

It seems you have a problem with the form: You see the suggestion as "This is it, take it or leave it".
Think to suggestions like so: They are just ideas. You put some work into that idea, of course, but until this idea is really coded, graphics made, implemented into Factorio and deployed a 100 times more stuff needs to be done. Nobody know, what remains from this idea, until this long way.

Again: It is more than questionable, what part of the idea may be used or not. We can only guess and see from experience.
So we're NOT talking about, if there are underground wires or so. Or how far is the cable-radius of the device.

We talk about basic concepts. Simple things. Usability. CPU usage. How this matches together with that.

So the best way to look, if an idea, or basic concept is usable or not is to talk about it. :) Also called discussion.
If you want to take track of that, well, you know now the borders of what I will allow and what not. But it doesn't make so much sense to keep a suggestion up-to-date with the state of discussion. It's like if you want to understand how Trump reacts in a certain situation. :)
. I didn't think too much when I came up with my current solution.
Well, you did. :) And my concern as moderator is that people do not spend to much time on ideas, that are questionable, because that is demotivating, when you suddenly see, that your idea you spend 10, 20 hours will have no chance to come into vanilla, cause you forgot something important.

So I mentioned here some basic concepts like WYSIWYP and so on. See them as borders, you might not cross with your first suggestion. ;)
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

EditorRUS
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Everything that runs on electricity is a pole! / Physical Electrical Network

Post by EditorRUS »

Irrelevant
So after some thinking I actually came to the same idea of connection boxes as ssilk.
Why connection boxes
Why connection boxes not
Strict definition of the system

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12888
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Everything that runs on electricity is a pole! / Physical Electrical Network

Post by ssilk »

EditorRUS wrote: That's... not usually how suggestions work in regular games. Usually you create a thread with your suggestion and describe it as much as you can and the following discussion corrects some points in the initial suggestion.
Yes. That's what I try to do. But I want to let the others do the work, cause they learn with that method faster, how the stuff works here compared to I correct the stuff. ;)
If I understood it correctly, here you create a suggestion by first explaining the very basic stuff, the idea, but most specifics will be derived in the discussion.
Oh well.
Not exactly. Most ideas work like this: Hello, I want to have something.
Everybody understands it, no need to intervene by me. In most cases it's one or two comments. Or none.

Some suggestions are more interesting. Like yours. And when I see: This will never/cannot be implemented like so, I try to bring the suggestion to a point, where it might be acceptable.
Which is now more or less the case. :)

The form maybe is ... well... For coming posts I also recommend not to use that much spoilers, that makes things not better readable. :)
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

Post Reply

Return to “Ideas and Suggestions”