Too many videos, with too much going on from time to time, to actually pick it up.
We are talking close to a days worth of play, and some of the issues are small, or hard to spot unless you are looking for it already. Plus by the time someone plays, usually 4 other people have played and made alterations before them. Remember the copper plates clogging up everywhere for a little bit? That kept re-appearing? Such little mistakes can be hard to spot unless you trace back the production line and find the issue.
Oh hey, this isn't working, because this isn't producing, because this isn't producing because this..who's input line is completely full...isn't able to produce due to a copper plate in the wrong spot!
How about the number of times a tiny change was made, that then totally emptied out belts because they forgot to put output back on a line?
How about the number of times inserters have been moved or rotated, to temporarily stop them from operating?
This sort of stuff has happened a lot in game, and because none of them have the time to watch a days worth of episodes,it'll be hard to actually catch, unless someone does an in depth look over them.
The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
They'd have to watch 4 episodes, 1 hour and 20 minutes approx.
One time every five days.
You have extremely exaggerated the time involved for any of the players to keep up.
I pointed out the base has changed little over the last 10 episodes there is no need for them to restart from the beginning.
And watching 10 episodes would still be a horrible waste of time if the point is to understand the base.
A better way to understand the base is to load up the save game from the last episode a player submitted.
Spend maybe 30 minutes just understanding where resources are going and where manufactured goods come from.
One time every five days.
You have extremely exaggerated the time involved for any of the players to keep up.
I pointed out the base has changed little over the last 10 episodes there is no need for them to restart from the beginning.
And watching 10 episodes would still be a horrible waste of time if the point is to understand the base.
A better way to understand the base is to load up the save game from the last episode a player submitted.
Spend maybe 30 minutes just understanding where resources are going and where manufactured goods come from.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
There's a bit more than just what is shown in finding issues. There's also understanding the logic and production chains.
Ok sure the whole series is an exaggeration...but the last 4 is also an exaggeration on the other side of what it'd take. Plus some issues were created in small simple moments, and then never looked at or seen again.
For instance, the rock quarry that everyone misses. You only really catch it in a few of fish's episodes, rarely in someone elses, but only fish makes a point to check up on it. You'd think by now someone would have remembered that, seeing as fish has looked at it a few times, and even called it out.
Heck..what is the top left corner of the base anyway? nobody really goes there, I honestly don't really even remember it anymore. I know the stone quarry is up there, but that's about it. I know to the extreeme left is where there was a hole in the wall at one point..where infectum made a few gun turrets, i don't even remember if that ever got fixed.
Where are the green circuits for engine production comming from now? I remember that supply line getting shut off, and in this episode it ran out...but does it have another way of getting them?
How about that lone iron mine with coal powered hand fed furnaces...is it still working? Did someone automate it better, make it obsolete? I remember it fed an important part of some of the oil stuff at one time. How many of them even know it exists in the first place really?
Is the flying robot factory still working and producing robots..should it be?
Some of these could be answered in the last 4 episodes..some couldn't, and some of these I honestly don't even remember and I'm just typing here cause it came to mind. A few I do remember, barely.
There are a lot of question, half formed ideas, people adding upon other people, upon other people. Lines changed, turned, restructured. Honestly taking some time to study the base AND fix any found issues seems like a better idea than trying to watch a few episodes, and hope they reveal everything.
Plus we have the advantage of having watched the whole series, in order, and not having been insides, forming out opinions while playing, and then needing to un-learn what you thought was true, and instead learn what happened..and then keep in your head what did happened.
This is not a knock on them..I'm not saying they are playing badly. I'm just saying that when in game, a spaghetti base like this gets harder to deal with, than when you are an outside observer, that's all. And I say this as someone who apparently has a good memory for maps and directions.
Besides, learning the base is only part of the point of this, the real point is that it'd be extremely helpful to the base, for someone to go over the production areas and do a 'sanity check'. And then spend time removing any sanity where it is found. Erm I mean, straitening lines that have stopped working due to unforeseen consequences, or forgotten completions.
Ok sure the whole series is an exaggeration...but the last 4 is also an exaggeration on the other side of what it'd take. Plus some issues were created in small simple moments, and then never looked at or seen again.
For instance, the rock quarry that everyone misses. You only really catch it in a few of fish's episodes, rarely in someone elses, but only fish makes a point to check up on it. You'd think by now someone would have remembered that, seeing as fish has looked at it a few times, and even called it out.
Heck..what is the top left corner of the base anyway? nobody really goes there, I honestly don't really even remember it anymore. I know the stone quarry is up there, but that's about it. I know to the extreeme left is where there was a hole in the wall at one point..where infectum made a few gun turrets, i don't even remember if that ever got fixed.
Where are the green circuits for engine production comming from now? I remember that supply line getting shut off, and in this episode it ran out...but does it have another way of getting them?
How about that lone iron mine with coal powered hand fed furnaces...is it still working? Did someone automate it better, make it obsolete? I remember it fed an important part of some of the oil stuff at one time. How many of them even know it exists in the first place really?
Is the flying robot factory still working and producing robots..should it be?
Some of these could be answered in the last 4 episodes..some couldn't, and some of these I honestly don't even remember and I'm just typing here cause it came to mind. A few I do remember, barely.
There are a lot of question, half formed ideas, people adding upon other people, upon other people. Lines changed, turned, restructured. Honestly taking some time to study the base AND fix any found issues seems like a better idea than trying to watch a few episodes, and hope they reveal everything.
Plus we have the advantage of having watched the whole series, in order, and not having been insides, forming out opinions while playing, and then needing to un-learn what you thought was true, and instead learn what happened..and then keep in your head what did happened.
This is not a knock on them..I'm not saying they are playing badly. I'm just saying that when in game, a spaghetti base like this gets harder to deal with, than when you are an outside observer, that's all. And I say this as someone who apparently has a good memory for maps and directions.
Besides, learning the base is only part of the point of this, the real point is that it'd be extremely helpful to the base, for someone to go over the production areas and do a 'sanity check'. And then spend time removing any sanity where it is found. Erm I mean, straitening lines that have stopped working due to unforeseen consequences, or forgotten completions.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
This series is getting good, isn't it?Junion wrote:a spaghetti base like this gets harder to deal with
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
He he quite good..and just realized re-reading it right now I should have spoilered some of that post..I just got kind of caught up in the discussion. Hope you had already played, he he 
.
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JoshLittle
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Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Yes, the 
I think it would be wrong to try to optimize everything in a way that everything is coordinated. Maybe that is not even possible. For my own base I go for modular production. The production chain doesn't hang in a line and the first assemblers or miners wait for the last production. Everything is going on full tilt until the buffer limit of the item is reached (f.e. steel or green circuits). And for the production itself I try out different layouts to optimize the small group (f.e. a group of assemblers that makes the green circuits and the wire for it, but also with a buffer in- and output so no side has to ever wait on the other). Because one module in an assembler can change everything.
But I don't think this could be a goal for the Hydra. There will never be a factory that runs perfectly coordinated. Even if a single person does it, this kind of fluency is hard to achieve. I don't expect it here.
They do it some kind of modular in the big array of possible productions with this double assembler-layout (which I also use). Only the limits are a bit low. Like I came back from a hunt and got my capsules back, some time later I wondered why my steel is empty. I traced it to the production of destruction capsules. But don't know if it was still working from the two bigger privious hunts. 10,000 steel seem not to be enough as a buffer (and I don't even have any research anymore). Only a good modular setup for
That is the problem with factorio. Solve one issue, go to the next, to the next and back to the first. These f*cking ressources could really last longer.
So, enough factorio-philosophy for me
whole in the wall
is still there. I have an eye on it. I think it would be wrong to try to optimize everything in a way that everything is coordinated. Maybe that is not even possible. For my own base I go for modular production. The production chain doesn't hang in a line and the first assemblers or miners wait for the last production. Everything is going on full tilt until the buffer limit of the item is reached (f.e. steel or green circuits). And for the production itself I try out different layouts to optimize the small group (f.e. a group of assemblers that makes the green circuits and the wire for it, but also with a buffer in- and output so no side has to ever wait on the other). Because one module in an assembler can change everything.
But I don't think this could be a goal for the Hydra. There will never be a factory that runs perfectly coordinated. Even if a single person does it, this kind of fluency is hard to achieve. I don't expect it here.
They do it some kind of modular in the big array of possible productions with this double assembler-layout (which I also use). Only the limits are a bit low. Like I came back from a hunt and got my capsules back, some time later I wondered why my steel is empty. I traced it to the production of destruction capsules. But don't know if it was still working from the two bigger privious hunts. 10,000 steel seem not to be enough as a buffer (and I don't even have any research anymore). Only a good modular setup for
green circuits
could be a huge improvement (root tried it
). And after that the ressources will be down. That is the problem with factorio. Solve one issue, go to the next, to the next and back to the first. These f*cking ressources could really last longer.
So, enough factorio-philosophy for me
If your belt feels too long, your wall is just too short
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Nothing I didn't already know.Junion wrote:He he quite good..and just realized re-reading it right now I should have spoilered some of that post..I just got kind of caught up in the discussion. Hope you had already played, he he
Just to drop a bit of a teaser, there is going to be something really special happening on thursday. It has to do with Fish's episode.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Nah, that's the nature of the beast when it comes to this game. You go full boar, and you either have something you're making too much of and it's line clogs, or you have something you don't make enough of and it's line and anything that depends on it becomes empty. Sometimes both things at the same time if they rely on different things.
And if you manage to balance it out, well that means you need to up your throughput and make more! After all there's more space, and you could always use more of something. Get that ore line unclogged!
Again not saying perfection, just make sure everything is working that's all. And that might not even matter, if they still have the correct production lines working for rocket defense to be built, and what doesn't work is only slowing some things down.
.
And if you manage to balance it out, well that means you need to up your throughput and make more! After all there's more space, and you could always use more of something. Get that ore line unclogged!
Again not saying perfection, just make sure everything is working that's all. And that might not even matter, if they still have the correct production lines working for rocket defense to be built, and what doesn't work is only slowing some things down.
If it's a 5 way call between you guys, while you watch Fish do the rocket defense, that would be really special-root wrote:Nothing I didn't already know.Junion wrote:He he quite good..and just realized re-reading it right now I should have spoilered some of that post..I just got kind of caught up in the discussion. Hope you had already played, he he
Just to drop a bit of a teaser, there is going to be something really special happening on thursday. It has to do with Fish's episode.
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Xterminator
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Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
So I am not going to quote your huge post Junion, but I am mostly referring to it here as well as what others have said.
First I just want to point out to all the watchers, that trying to fins bottlenecks or mistakes/things to fix in this series is exceedingly difficult. Also when we (the players) miss something that seems so blatantly obvious to you guys, it probably isn't at all to us. Keep in mind, that all you have to focus on is watching the episode. And the last one or few episodes are fresh in your minds. That isn't the case for us. Not only do we need to worry about our limited time, we have no idea what happened in the last houror so of gameplay, and we have to figure out something to do in the episode.
Also, it would take forever to fix mistakes. And also the reason why we sometimes don't see something that should be obvious. Because a lot of the time, we probably didn't cause a bottleneck, or place something in a chest, that the viewers think we should notice. Very similar to like if your looking at clouds with a friend, and you see a shape or animal, and they don't. And you just don't understand how they can't see it? Because they have a different perspective than you, and they weren't the one to see it or come up with it.
Or like if you take an object from the house and put it somewhere else that might actually be pretty obvious, and then tell a family member to find it. It will most likely be extremely difficult for them see it and find it. Why? Because they had no part in placing it there. They probably don't even remember exactly where it was to begin with, or exactly what it looked like. But you do, because you had luxory of seeing it and moving it around just a few moments ago. Also if say a friend(being you the viewers) watched the whole process even if they had never been in your house, they would still know exactly where to look. And would probably wonder why the person who lives in the damn house can't even see it. Same concept as this series.
First I just want to point out to all the watchers, that trying to fins bottlenecks or mistakes/things to fix in this series is exceedingly difficult. Also when we (the players) miss something that seems so blatantly obvious to you guys, it probably isn't at all to us. Keep in mind, that all you have to focus on is watching the episode. And the last one or few episodes are fresh in your minds. That isn't the case for us. Not only do we need to worry about our limited time, we have no idea what happened in the last houror so of gameplay, and we have to figure out something to do in the episode.
Also, it would take forever to fix mistakes. And also the reason why we sometimes don't see something that should be obvious. Because a lot of the time, we probably didn't cause a bottleneck, or place something in a chest, that the viewers think we should notice. Very similar to like if your looking at clouds with a friend, and you see a shape or animal, and they don't. And you just don't understand how they can't see it? Because they have a different perspective than you, and they weren't the one to see it or come up with it.
Or like if you take an object from the house and put it somewhere else that might actually be pretty obvious, and then tell a family member to find it. It will most likely be extremely difficult for them see it and find it. Why? Because they had no part in placing it there. They probably don't even remember exactly where it was to begin with, or exactly what it looked like. But you do, because you had luxory of seeing it and moving it around just a few moments ago. Also if say a friend(being you the viewers) watched the whole process even if they had never been in your house, they would still know exactly where to look. And would probably wonder why the person who lives in the damn house can't even see it. Same concept as this series.
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Phillip_Lynx
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Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
AND... it is a fun-series. I also see many things wich can made better but i do not mention them here.Xterminator wrote:So I am not going to quote your huge post Junion, but I am mostly referring to it here as well as what others have said.
First I just want to point out to all the watchers, that trying to fins bottlenecks or mistakes/things to fix in this series is exceedingly difficult. Also when we (the players) miss something that seems so blatantly obvious to you guys, it probably isn't at all to us. Keep in mind, that all you have to focus on is watching the episode. And the last one or few episodes are fresh in your minds. That isn't the case for us. Not only do we need to worry about our limited time, we have no idea what happened in the last houror so of gameplay, and we have to figure out something to do in the episode.
Also, it would take forever to fix mistakes. And also the reason why we sometimes don't see something that should be obvious. Because a lot of the time, we probably didn't cause a bottleneck, or place something in a chest, that the viewers think we should notice. Very similar to like if your looking at clouds with a friend, and you see a shape or animal, and they don't. And you just don't understand how they can't see it? Because they have a different perspective than you, and they weren't the one to see it or come up with it.
Or like if you take an object from the house and put it somewhere else that might actually be pretty obvious, and then tell a family member to find it. It will most likely be extremely difficult for them see it and find it. Why? Because they had no part in placing it there. They probably don't even remember exactly where it was to begin with, or exactly what it looked like. But you do, because you had luxory of seeing it and moving it around just a few moments ago. Also if say a friend(being you the viewers) watched the whole process even if they had never been in your house, they would still know exactly where to look. And would probably wonder why the person who lives in the damn house can't even see it. Same concept as this series.
I like very much more the struggling with the effects and the limited time you have
. If I had any experience in recoding games I had signed up for playing with you awsome guys Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Hey I fully expected this sort of stuff when I first started watching the series. Heck I expected it to get much worse, having seen similar ideas done in other games (anyone overly familiar with Dwarf Fortress know what I'm talking about).
I'm honestly just suggesting what I feel may be a good idea...spend an episode to just pour over the base and fix any issues one may see. Let that be a goal of the episode, to just fix the base up a little bit, it'd prob feel useless to whoever did it, but I think it'd help a great deal. On the other hand, -root is mentioning something special will be happening soon, which may negate all need for this anyway.
I'm honestly just suggesting what I feel may be a good idea...spend an episode to just pour over the base and fix any issues one may see. Let that be a goal of the episode, to just fix the base up a little bit, it'd prob feel useless to whoever did it, but I think it'd help a great deal. On the other hand, -root is mentioning something special will be happening soon, which may negate all need for this anyway.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
...if you were in the army as some sort of strategist.. Since it's just a game you'll just get better at it naturally.ible wrote:The second spoiler in JoshLittle's post is a great example of constructive feedback.
Infectum, I highly recommend you review the combat footage while reading through his analysis.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Or just play exactly as they have been playing, enjoying the challenge and the foibles of their folly, and entertain us all in the process. You folks do realise this isn't an exam, right?ible wrote:A better way to understand the base is to load up the save game from the last episode a player submitted.
Spend maybe 30 minutes just understanding where resources are going and where manufactured goods come from.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
And just to kill the idea, last time I played we were nowhere near rocket defense. Unless the boys have managed to smash out a ton of progress, I don't believe we're there yet. Its something else.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Bah! You shoulda let me disapoint myself!
Nah, I just figure you are saying something special is comming up..which might negate what i'm saying one way or another heh.
Nah, I just figure you are saying something special is comming up..which might negate what i'm saying one way or another heh.
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FKODgaming
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Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
The last episode is here! http://youtu.be/M_CahHaxHm0
I FINALLY GOT ROCKET DEFENSE!!
Ok, not really.... but you should watch anyway..
I FINALLY GOT ROCKET DEFENSE!!
Ok, not really.... but you should watch anyway..
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Because I feel like dropping my comments here instead of on the youtube video. I'll try to spoiler things as necessary.
Thank you for figuring out if you don't know where something is, you might be able to just request it from the system. It was a bit frustrating when you couldn't directly find 
, it honestly looks about as bad as the hydra base)
With that said, the good, the bad, the ugly. Time for the spoiler block cause seriously.
A general note for everyone...it might be a good idea to think about driving a car more often...if you trust yourself not to crash it, when doing stuff outside the base.
Thank you for figuring out if you don't know where something is, you might be able to just request it from the system
. It was a bit frustrating when you couldn't directly find railroad tracks
especially as your mouse hovered over them a couple of times..but I understand it can be hard to spot in that sea of mess. My first base is about as bad and the only reason i can find stuff sometimes is because i know the general area its in, even then I still miss stuff (first base..a lot of build mistakes, seriously even though I have rocket defense with it, its tempting to send it to -roots fixit..just because I'm curious what he'd do with it, and if he actually could give good improvements without just using logistics to clear EVERYTHING and rebuild from scratch , it honestly looks about as bad as the hydra base)With that said, the good, the bad, the ugly. Time for the spoiler block cause seriously.
This got big
Overall a slow, but somewhat interesting episode. You spent a lot of time running back to base to get supplies, which was a bit slowing..but I suppose I just overkill stocking up on my side.A general note for everyone...it might be a good idea to think about driving a car more often...if you trust yourself not to crash it, when doing stuff outside the base
.Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Excellent. My turn tonight!FKODgaming wrote:The last episode is here! http://youtu.be/M_CahHaxHm0
I FINALLY GOT ROCKET DEFENSE!!
Ok, not really.... but you should watch anyway..
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FKODgaming
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Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Junion wrote:Because I feel like dropping my comments here instead of on the youtube video. I'll try to spoiler things as necessary.
Thanks for the feedback. All were very good points, and gave me a lot to think about for next time.
The car Idea was brilliant, I really should have thought about that on my own, and I'm not sure why I didn't. I had one of those 'light-bulb' moments as i read it, and literally smacked my head.
The main reason I didn't just use a pipeline was because we already had the train station in place and somewhat setup for unloading oil barrels, so I figured it would be just as easy to add to the current system.
I completely missed the opportunity to upgrade the stone furnaces. Hopefully someone will catch that, if not, I'll make a mental note to do that in my next episode.
Thanks again for the input. I think I definitely need to take some time and figure out exactly how to do trains correctly
, so I don't potentially mess things up in the future, haha.Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
He he I think the car thing can be left unspoilered, it'd help everyone to a degree.
Honestly I need to play around with the car more myself...I have ideas but no idea if they'd work. I wonder if its possible to use an inserter on a car or not. I'd love to be able to load a car full of goodies with automation, take it to an outpost, unload, set things up, then grab the car and head back, with an inserter auto unloading it back to an active chest (for return to storage).
But I havn't even tried that yet...
Honestly I need to play around with the car more myself...I have ideas but no idea if they'd work. I wonder if its possible to use an inserter on a car or not. I'd love to be able to load a car full of goodies with automation, take it to an outpost, unload, set things up, then grab the car and head back, with an inserter auto unloading it back to an active chest (for return to storage).
But I havn't even tried that yet...