Rails don't need bronze, but are gated behind bronze tech

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sparr
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Rails don't need bronze, but are gated behind bronze tech

Post by sparr »

This seems a bit off. I play with Angels as well, so I'm not sure what the just-Bobs tech tree does around bronze, but I think the dependency is there as well. Maybe rails should require some bronze? Or maybe rail tech shouldn't depend on things that depend on bronze tech?

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Re: Rails don't need bronze, but are gated behind bronze tech

Post by DaleStan »

Vanilla, Bob, and AngelBob all agree that Railway depends on Logistics 2 and Engine.

Now, it happens that Logistics 2 depends on Bronze in Bob and AngelBob, but I don't think "Rails can be built without bronze" is a good justification for breaking the Logistics 2->Railway link. Rails can also be built without fast transport belts, so the same justification would apply to breaking the Logistics 2->Railway link in vanilla.

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Re: Rails don't need bronze, but are gated behind bronze tech

Post by sparr »

Maybe remove the bronze requirement for logistics 2? You'd still need it to build the red belts, but could advance up the tech tree without it.

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Re: Rails don't need bronze, but are gated behind bronze tech

Post by DaleStan »

You seem to be saying "Logistics 2 is prereq for building a rail network, and the rail network doesn't require bronze, so I want to be able to research it without knowing how to make bronze plate, even though all three of the recipes it unlocks require bronze plate."

Even ignoring the confusion unlocking recipes without unlocking their ingredients would cause, this is still a bad idea in a Bob's-only game. If you don't research Alloy processing 1, you can make Rail, but you can't make Locomotives. Locomotives require Engines, which require Basic Electronic Boards, which require Solder, which require Solder Plate, which is made in a Metal Mixing Furnace, which is unlocked by Alloy processing 1.


Clearly we are only interested in making changes in a an AngelBob game, so I'd recommend figuring out which exact dependency you want changed or removed in AngelBob, and take that up with Angel. Use the actual names of the research to remove any possible confusion. That is, say "Alloy processing 1" or "Advanced Bronze Smelting", not "bronze".

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Re: Rails don't need bronze, but are gated behind bronze tech

Post by bobingabout »

Also, in the latest version of Bob's mods, you can't make steel without chemical processing 1, and Electrolysis 1.

I changed the steel recipe to cost iron and oxygen in a chemical furnace.

Actually, in theory, you can make steel without Electrolysis, because you can use Oxygen from splitting Compressed Air into Nitrogen and Oxygen, but that has to be done in a chemical plant that requires steel to make, plus is too far into the tech tree, so... you pretty much do need Electrolysis 1.
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Re: Rails don't need bronze, but are gated behind bronze tech

Post by sparr »

bobingabout wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:37 pm
Also, in the latest version of Bob's mods, you can't make steel without chemical processing 1, and Electrolysis 1.

I changed the steel recipe to cost iron and oxygen in a chemical furnace.
Aww fuck. Exactly what I didn't want to read a few seconds after clicking the button to update all my mods

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Re: Rails don't need bronze, but are gated behind bronze tech

Post by bobingabout »

sparr wrote: ↑
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:16 am
bobingabout wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:37 pm
Also, in the latest version of Bob's mods, you can't make steel without chemical processing 1, and Electrolysis 1.

I changed the steel recipe to cost iron and oxygen in a chemical furnace.
Aww fuck. Exactly what I didn't want to read a few seconds after clicking the button to update all my mods
I'm not a complete AHole, you can turn it off. I think it comes under "new steel recipe" or something in Metals, Chemicals and Intermediates mod options.
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I also have a Patreon.

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Re: Rails don't need bronze, but are gated behind bronze tech

Post by sparr »

I can live with it. Just had to research a few more techs to start making oxygen.

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Re: Rails don't need bronze, but are gated behind bronze tech

Post by Antaguana »

bobingabout wrote: ↑
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:48 am
sparr wrote: ↑
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:16 am
bobingabout wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:37 pm
Also, in the latest version of Bob's mods, you can't make steel without chemical processing 1, and Electrolysis 1.

I changed the steel recipe to cost iron and oxygen in a chemical furnace.
Aww fuck. Exactly what I didn't want to read a few seconds after clicking the button to update all my mods
I'm not a complete AHole, you can turn it off. I think it comes under "new steel recipe" or something in Metals, Chemicals and Intermediates mod options.
I don't mind the change, but I am wondering why change it? It would seem more realistic if you needed Iron + carbon to make (carbon) steel.

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Re: Rails don't need bronze, but are gated behind bronze tech

Post by bobingabout »

Antaguana wrote: ↑
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:59 am
bobingabout wrote: ↑
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:48 am
sparr wrote: ↑
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:16 am
bobingabout wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:37 pm
Also, in the latest version of Bob's mods, you can't make steel without chemical processing 1, and Electrolysis 1.

I changed the steel recipe to cost iron and oxygen in a chemical furnace.
Aww fuck. Exactly what I didn't want to read a few seconds after clicking the button to update all my mods
I'm not a complete AHole, you can turn it off. I think it comes under "new steel recipe" or something in Metals, Chemicals and Intermediates mod options.
I don't mind the change, but I am wondering why change it? It would seem more realistic if you needed Iron + carbon to make (carbon) steel.
I did research. Apparently most of of the world's steel is made by bubbling oxygen through liquid iron in a special furnace. This is actually done to remove excess carbon and other impurities from the iron processing step.

Yes, the process is to remove excess carbon from the iron, which is the opposite of what most games tell you when you make steel by using coal and iron.
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Re: Rails don't need bronze, but are gated behind bronze tech

Post by Ratzap »

bobingabout wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:37 pm
Also, in the latest version of Bob's mods, you can't make steel without chemical processing 1, and Electrolysis 1.
That one caught me too. I'd made a follow along game for your videos and had basic furnace lines up. Squeezing O2 pipes into it without a major time consuming rebuild was tricky but got it done (had to lose a couple of buffer chests).

Image

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Re: Rails don't need bronze, but are gated behind bronze tech

Post by bobingabout »

Ratzap wrote: ↑
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:24 pm
bobingabout wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:37 pm
Also, in the latest version of Bob's mods, you can't make steel without chemical processing 1, and Electrolysis 1.
That one caught me too. I'd made a follow along game for your videos and had basic furnace lines up. Squeezing O2 pipes into it without a major time consuming rebuild was tricky but got it done (had to lose a couple of buffer chests).

Image
That's a pretty good solution to the problem.

I've been considering changing the electric furnace version to have an input on both sides to act like a passthrough, like steam engines, boilers and mining drills.
Electrolysers too. (the machine is currently configured to allow 2 inputs, but all electrolyser recipes only actually have a single fluid input.)

However, the reason why this isn't the case already is that in 0.16 and earlier, when the machine goes to sleep, fluids do not pass through.
This is why I had to do some "Magic" when writing the fluid energy source fluid box so that machines with it don't go to sleep at all.

if the new fluid system in 0.17 allows flow through the fluid boxes independant of a machine's sleep state, then I can add a passthrough system, just like the mining drills, boilers and steam engines.
Creator of Bob's mods. Expanding your gameplay since version 0.9.8.
I also have a Patreon.

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Re: Rails don't need bronze, but are gated behind bronze tech

Post by arbarbonif »

bobingabout wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:37 pm
Also, in the latest version of Bob's mods, you can't make steel without chemical processing 1, and Electrolysis 1.

I changed the steel recipe to cost iron and oxygen in a chemical furnace.

Actually, in theory, you can make steel without Electrolysis, because you can use Oxygen from splitting Compressed Air into Nitrogen and Oxygen, but that has to be done in a chemical plant that requires steel to make, plus is too far into the tech tree, so... you pretty much do need Electrolysis 1.
My main annoyance with that is that the chemical furnaces only fill to 2 cycles, whereas the normal furnaces go to a full stack. Now my initial "getting everything bootstrapped" steel generation needs both some stone bricks (for the furnace itself) and an inserter and a chest (Gasp, the horror!). Actually the bigger problem is what to do with the hydrogen. In pure Bob's it isn't too bad, since gas venting is only a couple of techs away (but storage tanks needs logistic science). In Angel's it is a much bigger annoyance, since venting is behind gas processing (tho you can get the small tanks with just red science they require steel). It changes the early tech priority list quite a lot.

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Re: Rails don't need bronze, but are gated behind bronze tech

Post by bobingabout »

arbarbonif wrote: ↑
Wed May 01, 2019 6:26 pm
bobingabout wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:37 pm
Also, in the latest version of Bob's mods, you can't make steel without chemical processing 1, and Electrolysis 1.

I changed the steel recipe to cost iron and oxygen in a chemical furnace.

Actually, in theory, you can make steel without Electrolysis, because you can use Oxygen from splitting Compressed Air into Nitrogen and Oxygen, but that has to be done in a chemical plant that requires steel to make, plus is too far into the tech tree, so... you pretty much do need Electrolysis 1.
My main annoyance with that is that the chemical furnaces only fill to 2 cycles, whereas the normal furnaces go to a full stack. Now my initial "getting everything bootstrapped" steel generation needs both some stone bricks (for the furnace itself) and an inserter and a chest (Gasp, the horror!). Actually the bigger problem is what to do with the hydrogen. In pure Bob's it isn't too bad, since gas venting is only a couple of techs away (but storage tanks needs logistic science). In Angel's it is a much bigger annoyance, since venting is behind gas processing (tho you can get the small tanks with just red science they require steel). It changes the early tech priority list quite a lot.
this has been pointed out to me today.
I think the best answer was simply... "It's probably best to turn off new steel if you're using angels." I'll mention it to him.
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Re: Rails don't need bronze, but are gated behind bronze tech

Post by Illiander42 »

arbarbonif wrote: ↑
Wed May 01, 2019 6:26 pm
In pure Bob's it isn't too bad, since gas venting is only a couple of techs away (but storage tanks needs logistic science). In Angel's it is a much bigger annoyance, since venting is behind gas processing (tho you can get the small tanks with just red science they require steel). It changes the early tech priority list quite a lot.
I'm going to take issue to people saying this changes teching priority in Angels. The very first green tech you go for (that isn't military-related) should always be Flare Stacks. You need oxygen for too many of the Metallurgy ingot productions, including some of the key early ones, to not beeline for it and the Air Compressor.

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