Why not do Bob's mods the right way?

[neithor]

I was about to reply to this postviewtopic.php?f=51&t=52456. Instead I thought a new conversation was deserving of this topic. I completely agree with OP's complaint. This whole thing is a shitshow. I'd like to join, test mods and give feedback, but it's nuts.

There's no way anyone that hasn't already been in the "Bob's mod" train already will jump in. There's just no place to start.

A PhpBB forum is far from the ideal way to do this thing properly. It's a waste of everyone's time, especially Bob's. You, Bob, have mentioned it in your own words how hard and time consuming it is to keep the information up to date or just even introduce it. Not to mention good explanations with screenshots and so on.

Therefore, introducing... the open source community tools! GitHub for example. I suggest moving all development, discussion, issues, bugs, wiki, information etc. to GitHub.

There everything is easily automatized (Factorio, remember? ), tagged, moderated... I insist, doing all this here is... stupid. Git (the tool, not the site, which I have to assume you are already using, otherwise you're absolutely nuts) will help you automate a ton of the developing process. And through public requests (PR) and moderators, the Wiki with the explanation on your mods, pics and so on will flourish muuuch better than here.

Let some passionate followers help you out with short explanations and a couple screenshots. Releases (versioning) would be automatically generated by git and everything provided by GitHub (you don't need any extra file cloud support). It's all there, for free, for everyone (no need to create account to download or read anything).

Keep your subforum, where you'll only post direct download links (provided by GitHub) on new releases and whatnot.

Let's start by your most popular mod and see from there. Let's get cracking.

PS: Bob, do you make frequent backups of your subforum? Because if something ever happens, you're going to be in deep shit without that. Just go to GitHub, or BitBucket.

[Bilka]

Automating the documentation of tech and recipe documentation should be possible, if it's just assumed that all of bobs mods are used.The documentation of that is automated on the offical wiki and I'd be happy to assist setting something like that up on another wiki for bob's mods, given that the mediawiki software is used for the wiki. @Bob, is you are interested in an actual wiki, you could ask the devs if they would be willing to set up a wiki server for you (if you don't want to rely on gamepedia or something simliar). HanziQ would be the dev to message for such matters.

[bobingabout]

I used to have my own mediawiki page. It died a horrible bot death.

I do actually have another wiki, but that's for a specific project. it also started to get a bot infestation, so I put in so much security, it's a pain in the backside to undo. (Okay, you can actually sign up now, but by default, all new members end up in a no-edits group, I have to manually assign people to the Editors group, and I don't even remember how to do that.)

Personally, I wouldn't mind having a fan maintained wiki site/section/page, it's a good idea.

Though, if we did such a thing, I think it could be beneficial to be an official factorio mods wiki, for all mods, not just my own. Having a mods section on the official wiki sounds like the best way to go for that. But would the game devs go for it?
I think they'd probably much rather keep mod information to the mod portal, where the mod dev has to add information to the description (Which is okay if the mod dev has the information ready to post, but doesn't allow for fan contributions like guides and tutorials)

[Bauer]

I cannot but agree! I am not using Bob's mod because there is no docu about it. I feel overwhelmed before I start.
The official wiki is the right place.

[Bilka]

Bots aren't much of a problem if you either make it so accounts have to be approved like on the official wiki (we've never had an application from a bot btw) or have a good cptcha system when registering. Of course that means that editing rights would have to restricted to registered users.

Though, if we did such a thing, I think it could be beneficial to be an official factorio mods wiki, for all mods, not just my own. Having a mods section on the official wiki sounds like the best way to go for that. But would the game devs go for it?

As an admin of the official wiki I can tell you that a mods section on the official wiki is a horrible idea, especially if all mods are documented in the same section. There is the problem of the modularity of most mods: Your mods with Angel's mods have completely different recipes/techs than your mods without anglels etc. So the infobox system would need some kind of modularity where the user can choose what mods they are using, and then have the recipes displayed relative to the selection. This kind of modularity is currently not present, but I guess that something might be possible.

Furthermore, there is also the problem that I, as an admin, would have responsibility for the mod section, and the devs would also be "responsible" because they host the content. Since the wiki is offical, I'd hold it to higher standards than a second mod wiki, perhaps also offical, but not on the offical vanilla wiki. When mod info becomes outdated and nobody is updating it, what do you do? How are game updates handled? All of these question would be my concern if the mod section were on the official wiki, and that section would be huge, and there would be a lot of people that all want it their own way. However, if the mods have their own wiki each, that's the concern of the respective mod authors, which is just better because then everyone can do what they want instead of having to do what all other people want.

I think they'd probably much rather keep mod information to the mod portal, where the mod dev has to add information to the description (Which is okay if the mod dev has the information ready to post, but doesn't allow for fan contributions like guides and tutorials)

I'm not so sure about that. I personally would like mod info to be documented somewhere outside of the 10000 letter limit of the mod portal, perhaps on a seperate mod wiki. But I think that a wiki that either has its own sections for each mod collection, or actually seperate wikis for each mod collection, would be better than one huge wiki/section on a wiki for all mods.

[bobingabout]

(we've never had an application from a bot btw)

Well, my bot infestation was from before a wiki came with capcha or anything similar as a standard package, so to get some sort of security, you had to find, install and configure a 3rd party addon. when I started my current wiki is using, the package came with optional security packages, but you still had to install and configure them. I think by default now there's just an option you can choose which turns on the "I am not a robot!" checkbox.

Anyway... If not on the official wiki, I would opt for an official mods wiki which has a section for each mod author/group.

But straight away you then have the issue where Angels over Bobs creates recipes that wouldn't exist in either if they were installed separate.

A bob's mods Wiki dedicated to bob's mods only wouldn't include any of the angels specific stuff anyway...

This is my thoughts anyway. I'm not against the idea of having my own Wiki for bob's mods, I'd just prefer something that included more than just my own stuff.

[neithor]

I don't want to be the parrot here but anything else than an online repo service is not smart nor safe nor efficient.

I'll say though, I'm unaware of the current customs here - I just barely know this forum - but if you have bot problems, you need different software, period. If you guys have some sort of fobia being outside a factorio domain, I won't say anything else, but if that's not the case, don't waste time, use github. It'll have all this project needs and more. And I swear I don't work there.

Factorio is not the first software to have spun a community of other mod devs, and github is full of them. There are also github repositories that just index the list of mod's repos. You can have that list here, by all means.

You have plenty of mods to take care, that need documentation, screenshots, examples. Others will follow too once they learn the "modern" way of modding.

[Bilka]

I don't want to be the parrot here but anything else than an online repo service is not smart nor safe nor efficient.

Uh... any reasons behind this? I'm curious why you think that.

say though, I'm unaware of the current customs here - I just barely know this forum - but if you have bot problems, you need different software, period.

So the fact that bob used old software that needs to be configured, means that we should use an entirely different software? Again, I don't quite follow your reasoning here.

If you guys have some sort of fobia being outside a factorio domain, I won't say anything else, but if that's not the case, don't waste time, use github. It'll have all this project needs and more. And I swear I don't work there.

Basically everything we use on the official wiki to document recipes is not available on github wikis lol Mainly templates and an api that can be used by bots without direct access to the database is missing. Not to speak of expansions, custom js and css, skins, and all that other stuff mediawiki provides....

@Bob since you want to have most mods in the same section of a wiki, may I ask how you imagine this? I'm trying to gauge how difficult it would be to set that up. Mostly wondering stuff like: A page per item? or more than 1 item per page? How should the modularity work?

[bobingabout]

Well, you're right that one big mods section isn't going to be adequate, so I was thinking a single mod wiki, where each author can have their own section.
So there'd be a bobingabout section, and within it, pages related to bobingabout's mods.

Probably a page about each mod, then where appropriate, an items page, recipes page, etc... I fail to see the need for each item to have it's own page, a section within a page would be adequate.

[Bilka]

Well, you're right that one big mods section isn't going to be adequate, so I was thinking a single mod wiki, where each author can have their own section.
So there'd be a bobingabout section, and within it, pages related to bobingabout's mods.

Probably a page about each mod, then where appropriate, an items page, recipes page, etc... I fail to see the need for each item to have it's own page, a section within a page would be adequate.

That sounds like a workable system. Since it is very different from the system we use on the main wiki, automating documentation will be a bit harder. I think then the best might be to perhaps list what each mod changes/adds/removes. Basically the mod code, but in text form A page could look like this:

Bob electronics

Adds:
-basic electronic circuit board (either link to a page about that or put the recipe beneath this. updating the recipe should preferably be automated)
-solder
-....

Changes:
-All recipe that normally take electronic circuits now take electronic circuit boards
-...

Removes:
-Electronic circuits
-...

A problem here for example is: should the recipe for solder use tin and lead? or should it use the second recipe? Or should it assume that bobmetals isn't installed and use whatever the mod uses then?

[bobingabout]

A problem here for example is: should the recipe for solder use tin and lead? or should it use the second recipe? Or should it assume that bobmetals isn't installed and use whatever the mod uses then?

This is likely a question that should be evaluated on a case per case situation.

What I would most likely do in this situation is say... add a link to the solder section, which lists the item and it's two recipes.

If we're thinking about a total raw cost tree (Which I know some people like to add), then I personally would default to the lead/tin recipe, as the alternative uses Silver, a resource you likely don't have access to until the later tech levels. (Either by mining outside of the starting area, or using one of the higher tier refining methods that gives you silver.)

There are actually a few recipes that have multiple paths. Resin from oil, or from wood for example is another good option. Does your cobalt come from cobalt ore, or a byproduct from copper refining. Your sulfuric acid used in batteries as a byproduct of tier 2 lead processing, or from oil processing?

Bob's mods is complex because there's more than just one way to do things.

[Bilka]

I would omit the total raw stuff, it's just too ambigious. Since the rest of this sounds like a solid plan to me, I'll speak with HanziQ and Gangsir about whether there will be another wiki or a section of the offical one for this.

[bobingabout]

Thank you.

[Patashu]

Btw, https://factorio.rotol.me/ has a full recipe/research wiki for multiple mods, including Bob's mods.

So maybe you could use it somehow.

[neithor]

I don't want to be the parrot here but anything else than an online repo service is not smart nor safe nor efficient.

Uh... any reasons behind this? I'm curious why you think that.

I was talking strictly as of Bob's development cycle and backups. I'm a hobbyist in computer security and more seriously a developer. I've worked managing teams of medium scale on different projects and I've learned some things the hard way that I would want you guys to spare.

For starters, this is not a very secure place. The real risk is losing all the valuable work/information you've put here. I've honestly haven't seen this wiki you all keep talking about but I'll bet is even more prone to attacks.

Then, like I said, just seeing the mayhem of lack or outdated documentation, and specially the huge void to start enjoying Bob's mods newbies like me tells me something smells in the developing cycle, if there is such a thing. I just want to help, or stirr the pot a bit. Both may help.

say though, I'm unaware of the current customs here - I just barely know this forum - but if you have bot problems, you need different software, period.

So the fact that bob used old software that needs to be configured, means that we should use an entirely different software? Again, I don't quite follow your reasoning here.

No, no. I may have misexpressed myself. By different software I didn't mean github, I just meant different anti-bot software, techniques. There used to be a time where fighting bots was pretty hard, but those days are gone. A bit of proper research will help any webdev to use the right tools.

If you guys have some sort of fobia being outside a factorio domain, I won't say anything else, but if that's not the case, don't waste time, use github. It'll have all this project needs and more. And I swear I don't work there.

[/quote]
Basically everything we use on the official wiki to document recipes is not available on github wikis lol Mainly templates and an api that can be used by bots without direct access to the database is missing. Not to speak of expansions, custom js and css, skins, and all that other stuff mediawiki provides....[/quote]

Then I miss this one completely. You either really need this customizable Wiki, or maybe you just have outgrown it, or need to get accostumed to something better. I want to stress that I'm talking blind here. Could you please link me to this wiki so I can see an exampleof the API, and custom web code?

[Bilka]

Can't quote because mobile but wiki/wiki api stuff:

The wiki: https://wiki.factorio.com
Custom css (general): https://wiki.factorio.com/MediaWiki:Common.css
Custom css (dark skin): https://wiki.factorio.com/MediaWiki:Vectordark.css
The account that performs the bot scripts: https://wiki.factorio.com/User:BilkaBot
General scripts, only like half of these acess the api and they arent about automating update processes: https://wiki.factorio.com/MediaWiki:Common.js
The scripts that do the updating of the infoboxes: https://wiki.factorio.com/User:BilkaBot/common.js and https://github.com/Bilka2/Wiki-scripts
An extension I wrote/am writing to return the first bit of a page to populate the description meta tag with: https://github.com/Bilka2/GetFirst2Sentences and a modfied version of https://mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiSEO to populate the meta tag with the the thing the other extension returns
Extension in action: Wiki it's currently enabled on: https://testing-wiki.factorio.com
Resulting link embed in discord (or google etc):


Both the updating of the recipes and techs and the extension for the description meta tag depends on the infobox template/is implemented there: https://wiki.factorio.com/Template:Infobox (https://testing-wiki.factorio.com/Template:Infobox)


Api info for the software we are using: https://mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLa ... b_APIs_hub

Info about extension for the software we are using: https://mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLa ... extensions


The wiki is pretty safe concerning vandals and bots etc. Email confirmation is required, the person also has to write at least 5 words in a box. There are regular database backups from Wube's side. Nothing to worry about there, seriously. The wiki has like 4 bots blocked, and 3 of those were blocked in like 2014 when there was indeed a bot problem (they just rolled back to a backup lol), the other one is a bot that got through stuff when we were changing permissions. We've actually never had to more than warn anybody in the year+ that I've been active on the wiki.

[neithor]

[...]

I stand corrected. I was definitely unaware what you were referring to as the wiki.

I broke my laptop and I'm in a temporal station now, but overall it seems good. I detected some small vulns in the code that deals with tokens and so on (I don't remember the .php file now) but nothing to worry about. My congrats, that's a lot of work.

I encourage you to keep working on it, improving the wiki and please open a new chapter for Bob's mods and so on. I'll try to lend my hand as much as possible.

[mrvn]

Well, you're right that one big mods section isn't going to be adequate, so I was thinking a single mod wiki, where each author can have their own section.
So there'd be a bobingabout section, and within it, pages related to bobingabout's mods.

Probably a page about each mod, then where appropriate, an items page, recipes page, etc... I fail to see the need for each item to have it's own page, a section within a page would be adequate.

That sounds like a workable system. Since it is very different from the system we use on the main wiki, automating documentation will be a bit harder. I think then the best might be to perhaps list what each mod changes/adds/removes. Basically the mod code, but in text form A page could look like this:

Bob electronics

Adds:
-basic electronic circuit board (either link to a page about that or put the recipe beneath this. updating the recipe should preferably be automated)
-solder
-....

Changes:
-All recipe that normally take electronic circuits now take electronic circuit boards
-...

Removes:
-Electronic circuits
-...

A problem here for example is: should the recipe for solder use tin and lead? or should it use the second recipe? Or should it assume that bobmetals isn't installed and use whatever the mod uses then?

Recipes are way to dynamic for this kind of thing. The mod should list that it introduces solder but what is needed to make solder is something you can only lookup in the game. When all the mods being active have weight in and finished modifying each other. There are several mods there that add a "what is it used for" or "what is it made from" GUI to the game. I think that's the way to go. Not some wiki that will be wrong half the time.

[LittleMikey]

I used to do a lot of modding for the indie game Towns, so I'm familiar with pulling mods apart to see how they work. I'd be happy to help maintain a wiki, I have managed a few before and know how to use wikicode.

[darkfrei]

The wiki The mod tutorial must be inside of the game. If you add some mods, this wiki will be changed and try to explain you how you can get the goal.