Feedback

Some mods, made by Bob. Basically streaks every Factroio-area.

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Feedback

Post by bobingabout » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:17 am

My mod is incomplete, I know, but lets not go into that right now.

Tell me. What do you like about my mod (favourite features, favourite mod, etc)
And also, probably more importantly (I can't fix things if I don't know they're broken) what do you dislike about the mod?

For example... Tiers go too high... the higher tiers are overpowered... Brass isn't used often enough...
But don't just take this as a reason to badmouth my mod, if you don't like something... why not? what might work in it's place?
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Re: Feedback

Post by mrvn » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:17 am

- I found that ore distribution and richness didn't meet demands. Not enough of one thing, way to much of another. With and without RSO the same but different things. Might just have been unlucky seeds though, hard to say without playing 1000 games.

- Way to many diamonds in coal. I keep having problems because the chest run full, the chests run full, the warehouse run full. Even when I polished them the warehouse for polished stones run full. Way to many gems with little use. I never ever yet had to touch a gem ore field.

I think the gems mixed in with other goods should be magnitudes more rare so that you:

a) have to solve the sorting puzzle
b) don't get overwhelmed with gems at the start that only become usefull at the end
c) get some gems to build your first laser turret etc
d) don't get enough gems to make gem ore fields pointless

- Love your vehicle grids (except plasma cannon as it hits itself) although makes vehicles nearly unkillable

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Re: Feedback

Post by bobingabout » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:44 pm

I think Diamonds in coal is set to 1% chance. The problem with chance based things like that is that I'm not sure what the lower limit should be and the game still actually have them.

However, all the numbers for gem chances are in the configuration options, try setting the gem chance down from 0.1 to 0.01 and see what happens (Which would reduce diamond chance from 1% to 0.1%)
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Re: Feedback

Post by batorfly » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:05 pm

I don't like yours electronics. Once i try to play with this mod, but it's pain for me. It's well done, i can appreciate this, it's just matter of taste and my laziness. So i suppose you don't have to worry about it.

Second: raw speed modules/MK3 Beacons, i like them a lot, but OP module combined with OP Beacon... OP^2, kind of madness. Greater reach + more distribution efficiency + more slots = too much. Now it's too easy to obtain, for example- 400 prod. speed furnace in reasonable build. [Possible solution]: I think MK2 and MK3 beacons should have standard 50% efficiency, or MK2 - 3 slots, MK3 - 4 slots, i like better second option with less slots.

Third: About that "incomplete" thing. Bob + Angel = Whole, kind of marrage XD. Obvious fact for now, at least for me. I mean, both mods are kind of incomplete, though nothing is perfect. But i think Angel standalone is sligtly better.

Fourth: There is a lack of goals in game after some rockets, and some infinite upgrades, of course you can set yours, BIG, HEAVY GOALS, and go for it = possible hundreds of hours of gameplay, buuuuuut, maybe you can do something with it? I don't have any ideas yet. [You can stop reading now, offtop] But i'm thinking about something really big and - key word - MODULAR. I'm dreaming of modular buildings in factorio, bunkers(why? first we need big rework of enemies) , factories, specialised buildings, etc. For me introduction for this concept is reactors and bonus for adjacent reactors, but i want so much more then only simple production bonus. And it need be SLOW, EXPENSIVE (utilization of infinity prod.) , HUGE, need lot of bots (to utilize infinity robot speed), just end game, high-end stuff. STOP. I'll end offtop here, bye XD

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Re: Feedback

Post by T2k3 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:30 pm

Well, i think most of my feedback you can guess since i just thrown out my interpretation of bob's. But let's put them nicely ordered out here, since my mod description is really a bit sparse to make clear points. (don't fret! praise will follow)

My main point for "why is bobs overkill" is that at a certain point the mod feels like "ok, now that you suffered through, you shall be a god". While being a god is nice and dandy, the whole point of building a mega-base goes down the river.
my little story about that
So my point here is, you can give the player rewards for progressing in the techtree or for building something complicated, but it shouldn't get to the stage where the player get's everything for free. And that is the problem with the "raw-speed","raw-productivity"-modules ect. in my opinion as well. You could balance them in the way that they get you the effect without side-effects but only half the original effect as en example. (maybe something i will do with my mod)

The next part witch is pretty hard would be the balance of the warfare part. You can at some point of the game just run up to a biter-base with nothing but a power-armor an wipe it out by standing there. That's nice in a way, but makes turrets pointless since you can just take a walk. And the point with turrets should be: you either produce magazines and lose resources or you have the power for lasers and a infrastructure to get the power to the biters. But that's something that even the base-game struggles with. Another part is that you can drop turrets on biter bases and wait till they are done.
my ideas here
The next thing i would like to takle is the part about bob's complexity: In contrast to Angels, Bob's is a lightweight on that. And while i like this little extra of complexity, many who played vanilla see this giant blob of recipes and faint. In this i wouldn't say my own mod is any better, since it more or less changes the whole game. But maybe there is a way to gradually increase complexity little by little or to make a guide to bob's either as manual or in the game. It really isn't top-priority but something to keep in mind.

Well now let me say all those nice words you deserve! The part that might be the biggest strength while being the most work is bobs modularity. You can configure your own game, how you like it and change if something isn't how you imagine it to work. That's something really great! well, after browsing through your code for hours i know what pain that creates for you, but something that you could develop even further. The amount of "on top tiers" bob's created, and the plus of playtime is something i always liked about bob's and something i would like to work out even better for creating this feeling of "there is always something you can improve". And, as you can imagine, a big part what i like about bob's (and angles btw.) is the more of realism it brings to the game. And last but not least, i like that with your library i can build my own mod, maybe thats something to develop further as well.

I hope that helps you. And again thanks for your efforts and your mod!

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Re: Feedback

Post by jodokus31 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:33 pm

First: These mods are really awesome. As I first noticed them (& angels), factorio became a whole new game to me, which added so much depth to it, that i didnt really want to bother with vanilla for a long time. (vanilla has its own charme)
I really like, how the first 3 tiers of circuits progress.
- first (tier 0) is rather easy, but needs a lot of wood. (imho greenhouse is slightly op)
- second circuit is really a headache (in a positive way) and a great milestone. also that fast/filter inserters depend on them
- the 3. circuit is also very big milestone, because of plastic (oil) (esp. with angels petrochem) and the gate to blue science.
after that, the 4. and 5. circuit and the modules are geting very overwhelming with different requirement constellations, but nothing really new except for gems (which is a really nice idea) and gold. And i noticed, that i didn't really want to bother to get nice beltbased designs, so i just throw everything in provider chests and the bots did the distribution.
And it would be 5 times the same for the different module kinds...
This is also the moment, that I realized, that all of my poor belt based designs are not sufficient for throughput even with fastest belts because the modules are so extremely powerful and the machines have so many slots. and then those beacons... I really like to create complex belt based designs with lots of direct insertions...

I also liked the variety of different metals and alloys in the beginning, but at a certain point, I think its a bit too much, because they are so similar producable and rarely used. F.e. nickel plate is only used in roboport mk4 (or maybe somewhere else i didnt discover). There are also many, which are not really used for anything towards the rocket.

And yes, I also think, that there are too many tiers of everything. Imho 1 base tier and a second enhanced one for mid-/endgame, which makes a difference, would be sufficient for most items.

I also like, how the boilers and steam engines enhance. In my current run, I'm only using steam power so far. and they are very efficient with enriched fuelblocks or woodbricks from angels bio processing. With raw module esp. green modules in miners, its not so important to have a big power supply.

The bullets are nice, but the uranium bullets are too easy compared. The sniper turrets are a bit powerful because of the range and damage bonus. (They outrange most worms)

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Re: Feedback

Post by bobingabout » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:04 am

batorfly wrote:Second: raw speed modules/MK3 Beacons, i like them a lot, but OP module combined with OP Beacon... OP^2, kind of madness. Greater reach + more distribution efficiency + more slots = too much. Now it's too easy to obtain, for example- 400 prod. speed furnace in reasonable build. [Possible solution]: I think MK2 and MK3 beacons should have standard 50% efficiency, or MK2 - 3 slots, MK3 - 4 slots, i like better second option with less slots.
I would have to look at the efficiency thing... as for the change in number of slots, that could be an option.
T2k3 wrote:And that is the problem with the "raw-speed","raw-productivity"-modules ect. in my opinion as well. You could balance them in the way that they get you the effect without side-effects but only half the original effect as en example. (maybe something i will do with my mod)
Currently, the modules are quite configurable, but a lot of things are locked together, such as productivity bonus is the same across all modules (doubled for God). Perhaps a "God module effect multiplier" and "Raw module effect multiplier" could be added in to the settings, so you can set them to 0.3 and 0.5 for example, to make them less overpowered?


T2k3 wrote:I would like to address this by reducing the health of turrets or let the biters do more damage. I hadn't the time to balance this part o the game better then reduce the overpower the bob-equipment gives you and ramp up the lasers a bit. But i would like to take this on as well since the challenge is somewhat gone in bob's at a certain stage and there is so much potential to it. Something like rocket-turrets to bombard your way through the biters (and give you a reason to mass produce them) or "swarms"-attacks that occur at a certain pollution level, would make that part of the game much more interesting (and challenging). An integration of middle range turrets in general sounds thrilling to me (be it artillery or rockets).
Personally, this is one of the areas where I'd look at reducing the number of tiers of things. Maybe only 3 tiers of all the turrers including power armor. But then you'd get people who like the high end stuff complaining that I've removed the. Perhaps an option somewhere, such as hardcore mode that turns off the recipes for the higher tiers?

T2k3 wrote:And last but not least, i like that with your library i can build my own mod, maybe thats something to develop further as well.
Well, The Library started out as just some functions in each mod, and then I found some such as checking to see if a technology has a science pack, and adding one if it didn't was used in multiple mods, so it started to get a bit silly like that, I decided it would be useful to put all my functions in one place. Then other code such as the productivity filters changed from hard overrides to a full function, and the same with recipe replacements, that set of functions I find excessively useful. They're all there for anyone to use freely, as long as it's by using the library mod.

I am open to sugestions of fuctions to add to the library, or tweaks to make to existing functions.

jodokus31 wrote:This is also the moment, that I realized, that all of my poor belt based designs are not sufficient for throughput even with fastest belts because the modules are so extremely powerful and the machines have so many slots. and then those beacons...
From this I basically read that I should do something about the number of module slots on machines, which has already been mentioned.

jodokus31 wrote:I also liked the variety of different metals and alloys in the beginning, but at a certain point, I think its a bit too much, because they are so similar producable and rarely used. F.e. nickel plate is only used in roboport mk4 (or maybe somewhere else i didnt discover). There are also many, which are not really used for anything towards the rocket.
Nickel never was supposed to be a metal you use directly, IRL it's an alloy component, so it's used to make Invar, Nitinol and Tungsten.
There are however some metals that feel like dead ends... Bronze for example, until the edit to science pack 3, was basically used only for bronze pipes in a couple of entities.
jodokus31 wrote:And yes, I also think, that there are too many tiers of everything. Imho 1 base tier and a second enhanced one for mid-/endgame, which makes a difference, would be sufficient for most items.

I also like, how the boilers and steam engines enhance. In my current run, I'm only using steam power so far. and they are very efficient with enriched fuelblocks or woodbricks from angels bio processing. With raw module esp. green modules in miners, its not so important to have a big power supply.
Unlike most other factory chains, the power system (base steam at least, not the new heatpipe versions) have had a lot of thought put into balancing them, meaning that even the top tier shouldn't really be overpowered (at the end of the day, the final fuel efficiency rating raises from 50% to 96%, plus it's more space efficient), where other chains like the assembling machines, although the numbers look good for individual points (Say, speed by itself looks good. power consumption along with it doesn't look bad), when you add up all the changes (IE, take increased number of module slots into account) they start to look overpowered. Also, note: the Assembling machine MK6 is the only machine capable of automating Raw Productivity 8, and God 5. Each tier can handle +2 ingredients, and those high tier modules take more than 10 to craft.
jodokus31 wrote:The bullets are nice, but the uranium bullets are too easy compared. The sniper turrets are a bit powerful because of the range and damage bonus. (They outrange most worms)
Changing the recipe for uranium bullets to be similar to that of my new types of bullets should solve that problem. a little rebalancing might help even further too.
Part of the other problem could be the resistances of my enemies against nuclear (whatever the resistance is) might not be high enough, which is why they seem most effective.

Sniper turrets were only really added in because they were requested. Longer range and higher damage at a slower firing speed sounds natural for something called a Sniper (After all, they're supposed to be long range 1 hit kill weapons, slowed down because they require accuracy), but it's not so easy to balance it in game. They already have a much lower DPS than the equivalent Gun turret (Sniper 1 with Gun 1, Sniper 2 with Gun 3, and Sniper 3 with Gun 5), but that's a trade off for ammo efficiency, and Range.
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Re: Feedback

Post by BlakeMW » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:02 am

Okay, the thing I dislike most about Bob's Mod is the modules are overpowered.

I'm not even so much talking about Bob's Modules which I adamantly refuse to use, but the increased number of module slots in assemblers, its just really, really OP having so many module slots.

I found this annoying enough that I made a personal balance mod that rebalances module slots to have between 0-4 for assemblers (except electronics assemblers, which only go up to 2 slots), 2-3 for miners, 2-3 for chemical plants and refineries and ZERO for electrolyzers of all tiers. Because when you can exploit modules so much you hardly need to build out at all, you just use a zillion productivity modules in a high speed assembler and add a beacon or two to make it even faster. Having no slots for electrolyzers means you have to build an array of the things and provide a fair amount of power. Also for all kinds of machines, a big speed boost (i.e. +50%) is already a rather exceptional reward for upgrading, especially when you're packing in expensive productivity modules which you'd like to run as fast as possible.

Now I assume that some players really love exploiting modules to the max as for example it allows making really small 1RPM factories - but clearly also some don't, i.e. Angel's mods only provides 1 or 2 module slots (as a rule) and most recipes don't allow productivity. I think in some cases Angel's provides too many module slots, that is I think machines along the lines of electroyzers and electric furnaces don't have any business having module slots - technically it's the consumption modifier that bothers me (along of course with productivity), but by the time you prohibit consumption and productivity you may as well just prohibit modules altogether since it only leaves pure speed and pollution. I know the base game ultimately gives all machines module slots, but I think when adding even more kinds of machines this isn't a rule that needs to be followed - that is to say there is still enough machine types you can customize even if one or two classes of machine can't take modules.

I'm also in the "too many tiers" camp. I think most machines should have 2 or 3 tiers:
3 tiers: basic (crappy), intermediate (good), super-advanced (awesome)
2 tiers: basic (good), super-advanced (awesome)

With a possible exception for Assemblers which have a super early version.

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Re: Feedback

Post by mrvn » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:27 pm

When playing a hard game the sniper turrets are very much needed because otherwise destroying alien nests before lasers becomes too hard.

I also like them from a game play point as you don't just turret creep. You set up a defense against spitters and biters outside the worm range. Then you add some sniper turrets to attack long range.

Maybe the sniper turrets could be changed into long range atillery or other indirect fire units. Or add them as an extra option. Given the size and mass of attilery they should not track units. Maybe even only fire at worms and spawners. Sniper turrets should have problems with moving targets too.



As for overpowered modules: Productivity module mk8 in beacon mk3 around an assembler give you >10000% productivity. So for one cycle worth of input you get 1000 outputs. That's just insane. And the speed slowdown is capped at some minimum speed that still gives you fast production.

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Re: Feedback

Post by Trainwreck » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:45 am

One thing I've noticed, even ignoring the module issues BlakeMW mentions above, is that Bob's mods simply reduces the amount of ore required to produce things. I've written a quick and dirty mod to make the in game "total raw" tooltip decompose the recipe as far as possible. The mod is attached (HandcraftEverything_0.0.1.zip), I'm not sure it gives 100% accurate results, factorio might pick an inefficient crafting path if multiple options are available. But it should be good enough for a quick comparison. So let's compare some items commonly produced in a factorio base.

First, unmodded factorio:
base.png
base.png (603.07 KiB) Viewed 6201 times
Processing unit takes 2 coal 24.1 iron + 40 copper = 66.1 ore
Productivity module 3 takes 190 coal + 1.0k iron + 2.0k copper = 3.2k ore
Rocket part takes 95 coal + 891 iron + 775 copper = 1761 ore

Now with Bob's mods:
bob.png
bob.png (914.21 KiB) Viewed 6201 times
Electronic processing board takes 1.4 coal + 0.8 stone + 0.2 iron + 2.9 copper + 5.8 other metals = 11.1 ore
Productivity module 8 takes 57.5 coal + 27.9 stone + 9.6 iron + 44.2 copper + 147.7 other metals = 286.9 ore
Rocket part takes 101 coal + 235 stone + 4 iron + 70 copper + 407.1 other metals = 817.1 ore

Bob's electronic processing board costs about 1/6 of an unmodded processing unit (11.1 ore vs 66.1 ore)
Bob's productivity module 8 costs less than 1/10 of an unmodded productivity module 3 (286.9 ore vs 3.2k ore)
Rocket parts with bob's cost about 1/2 the materials of the unmodded game (817.1 ore vs 1761 ore)
The amount of crude oil required is also significantly less for Bob's recipes.

What I'd like to see would be Bob's items using approximately the same amount of iron and copper as the base game counterparts. More advanced components would consume advanced metals in addition the the iron and copper base game requirements.
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Re: Feedback

Post by bobingabout » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:28 am

You have a point that it does cost less than the base game, but also consider that where in the base game, all it costs is copper and iron (we're just talking ores here), in my mod the processing unit takes 8 ores (stone, iron, copper, gold, lead, nickel, quartz and tin)
Specifically for the case of the processing unit, it uses 1/6 because I've changed the model from "Throw a lot more of the same stuff at it!" to "Add something new". When you look at the difference in design model philosophies, it becomes quite obvious why my versions are cheaper.
(Also the original game adds multiples of the previous version, plus new resources, where with electronics, you build the next tier from the ground up, so instead of a logarithmic cost progression, you get linier instead)

Then you looked at Modules... well, I completely rewrote those to, once again change from "Throw more of the same stuff at it!" to "Add something new", and one of the ingredients is the processing unit that has already become cheaper, the cost reduction magnifies. Still, I wouldn't call modules cheap, they're cheaper than the base game, sure, but more complex.

Also, don't forget that some of the recipes (like circuits) do have expensive mode multipliers that don't exist in the base game.

Perhaps the game could be balanced to your liking simply by adding a "Resource processing multiplier", so instead of 1 ore makes 1 plate, you have <multiplier> ore makes 1 plate?

It would apply only to raw resource processing, so you're talking all the ores (not stone or coal, but includes quartz, and maybe gems), oil, maybe water in some cases (Lithia is used for a metal for example).

I probably wouldn't play with gas costs though (some of the processes have been thoughtfully balanced, such as the new rocket fuel chain, if you make them more expensive, it makes the byproducts useless and annoying, rather than part of the puzzle) though allowing productivity modules in the factory does kind of mess that up too. (Potentially getting more Pure water out than you put into the electrolysers as an example)
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Re: Feedback

Post by BlakeMW » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:15 am

Trainwreck wrote:One thing I've noticed, even ignoring the module issues BlakeMW mentions above, is that Bob's mods simply reduces the amount of ore required to produce things.
That's a really good point. I've noticed it when playing but have never got solid numbers.

Though I think to a large extent Bob's substitutes complexity for volume. And then when you add Angel's underneath Bob's that complexity is massively increased. Putting aside shenanigans with modules probably angels+bobs uses as much land as vanilla, due to the complexity of the Angels processing chains and fatness of Angel's buildings. And I know this is a thread about balancing Bob's mod, but Angels+Bobs is an extremely popular combination (in fact on /r/factorio these days, Bob's by itself seems to be treated as a mere stepping stone to Angels+Bobs).

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Re: Feedback

Post by mrvn » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:21 pm

BlakeMW wrote:
Trainwreck wrote:One thing I've noticed, even ignoring the module issues BlakeMW mentions above, is that Bob's mods simply reduces the amount of ore required to produce things.
That's a really good point. I've noticed it when playing but have never got solid numbers.

Though I think to a large extent Bob's substitutes complexity for volume. And then when you add Angel's underneath Bob's that complexity is massively increased. Putting aside shenanigans with modules probably angels+bobs uses as much land as vanilla, due to the complexity of the Angels processing chains and fatness of Angel's buildings. And I know this is a thread about balancing Bob's mod, but Angels+Bobs is an extremely popular combination (in fact on /r/factorio these days, Bob's by itself seems to be treated as a mere stepping stone to Angels+Bobs).
But Angels uses different ore processing where you get less plates from each ore. So that puts costs back up again.

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Re: Feedback

Post by kwjcool321 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:39 pm

Your mod is good, and is even better when paired with angel mod.

1. Higher tier of shore pump is needed. Maybe tier 5 which is 10 times as vanilla pump? (12000/s)

2. Need a pipe which has underground distance of 30 and size of 20? Consider add cement into recipe which make it 'cement lined tungsten pipes'

3. Cobalt steel and invar is not used in any science pack. Consider some rework?

4. Raw modules too OP, consider raw module only have 60% of each pure module power?

5. Beacon too OP

6. Need to rework higher tier belt speed.
Instead of linear growth, consider exponential growth? Such as 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 12? (Hehe, 6 tiers)

7. To make ''more inserter 1'' into blue science and ''more inserter 2'' into logistic science?

8. To adjust ''multi-layered circuit board'' to be more complex and chellenging.

9. To change high tech science to require tier 3 speed module?

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Re: Feedback

Post by BlakeMW » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:35 pm

mrvn wrote: But Angels uses different ore processing where you get less plates from each ore. So that puts costs back up again.
That's not true. Angel's refining basic scheme is N angel's ore -> N (total) bob's ore.

For example the basic pure sorting recipes are
2 + 2 Angels Ore -> 4 Bob's ore

The mixed sorting recipes are like:
4 Crushed Angel's Ore -> 3 Bob's ore + 1 Slag
9 Refined Angel's Ore -> 9 Bob's ores

Slag is a like a junk ore that makes everything add up so that the N -> N relationship is preserved.
Only two sorting recipes are "lossy", that is the recipes that make pure Uranium and pure Florite, both only produce half as much ore out as ore in. Both happen to not be Bob's ores at all.

Adding Angels' Smelting: using normal furnaces is penalized into a 4:3 conversion of ore to plate but once you have ore processing and setup proper refining it becomes a 2:3 conversion - you get 50% more plates compared with not having Smelting installed at all - this +50% also more than compensates for any slag you might be suffering from. With pellets you get another +33% yield boost and so get twice as many plates per ore compared with not having Refining installed.

So Angels gives you either equal plates per ore, or more plates per ore depending on whether you use Smelting or not. It is only in the early game that you get fewer plates per ore.

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Re: Feedback

Post by Trainwreck » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:31 am

bobingabout wrote:You have a point that it does cost less than the base game, but also consider that where in the base game, all it costs is copper and iron (we're just talking ores here), in my mod the processing unit takes 8 ores (stone, iron, copper, gold, lead, nickel, quartz and tin)
Specifically for the case of the processing unit, it uses 1/6 because I've changed the model from "Throw a lot more of the same stuff at it!" to "Add something new". When you look at the difference in design model philosophies, it becomes quite obvious why my versions are cheaper.
(Also the original game adds multiples of the previous version, plus new resources, where with electronics, you build the next tier from the ground up, so instead of a logarithmic cost progression, you get linier instead)

Then you looked at Modules... well, I completely rewrote those to, once again change from "Throw more of the same stuff at it!" to "Add something new", and one of the ingredients is the processing unit that has already become cheaper, the cost reduction magnifies. Still, I wouldn't call modules cheap, they're cheaper than the base game, sure, but more complex.

Also, don't forget that some of the recipes (like circuits) do have expensive mode multipliers that don't exist in the base game.

Perhaps the game could be balanced to your liking simply by adding a "Resource processing multiplier", so instead of 1 ore makes 1 plate, you have <multiplier> ore makes 1 plate?

It would apply only to raw resource processing, so you're talking all the ores (not stone or coal, but includes quartz, and maybe gems), oil, maybe water in some cases (Lithia is used for a metal for example).

I probably wouldn't play with gas costs though (some of the processes have been thoughtfully balanced, such as the new rocket fuel chain, if you make them more expensive, it makes the byproducts useless and annoying, rather than part of the puzzle) though allowing productivity modules in the factory does kind of mess that up too. (Potentially getting more Pure water out than you put into the electrolysers as an example)
What prompted me to do the above comparison was noticing that my Bob's mod bases never really needed any sort of dedicated smelting array. I tend to build 70+ electric furnaces each for iron and copper smelting when building a mediocre unmodded base. When playing Bob's, one or two MK2 multi purpose furnaces is enough for each type of metal. A resource multiplier would help increase the required input ore supply, but the plate output from smelting would be the unchanged reduced amount, which I find unsatisfying compared to base factorio.

I also prefer the base factorio style of adding multiples of the previous tier to circuits. Factorio is all about logistics management, managing the flow of plates into a green circuit factory, and from there green circuits on to the dependent red circuit factory etc... is part of the logistics puzzle that makes factorio enjoyable.

So, I guess I'm asking to have it both ways. I want the "Throw more of the same stuff at it!"/logarithmic results progression of the base game, but with Bob's "Add something new" adding complexity at each step. That's probably easier said than done, but since asked for feedback, here it is.

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bobingabout
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Re: Feedback

Post by bobingabout » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:35 am

the multiplier would affect not just ore required, but also production time, so for example, base game steel, it costs 5x the amount of iron ore, but takes 5x as long to complete the cycle too.
Yes you'll still get the same number of plates out, but would need 5x the factories to do it.
Creator of Bob's mods. Expanding your gameplay since version 0.9.8.
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Re: Feedback

Post by mrvn » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:42 am

bobingabout wrote:the multiplier would affect not just ore required, but also production time, so for example, base game steel, it costs 5x the amount of iron ore, but takes 5x as long to complete the cycle too.
Yes you'll still get the same number of plates out, but would need 5x the factories to do it.
Playing with Bobs, Angels and LTN mods I kind of find the ore crusher and ore sorting to be to fast. I have a train station unloading ores, then 4 ore curshers and then a train station again. The 4 ore crushers already consume/produce 2 full yellow belts. In vanilla you need 26 stone furnaces per yellow belt. It feels odd to have a huge train station setup build for massive loading/unloading speed and then just a few ore crushers. My factory is mostly empty space between train stations with a very few buildings in between.

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Re: Feedback

Post by thc133 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:22 pm

I usually play Bob's mod (God modules enabled) with the following mods. For me it's a very good balance between building and battle parts. One has to establish early defense and start railroad network ASAP to get mid-tier resources (Zinc, Aluminum, Nickel) for mid-tier turret. With Space Extension mod and enabled Harder End-game setting from Natural Evolution mod the evolution factor jumped to 90% or higher very easily in late game which is a pain even though I have fully upgraded tier 5 laser turret. I tried adding Angel's mod into the list but the building part became slightly too much and then I was overwhelmed by fast growing enemies.

I'd like to thank Bob for the great mod! It's the key for all other mods to work well and thus bring us so much fun playing Factorio!

I'm not complaining. I just have 2 comments about Oil Processing:
1. One can make a loop of Sulfuric acid, Sulfur dioxide and Sulfur production. With Productivity Module, it will generate unlimited Sulfuric acid. This is not bad because one can build a close loop so that there's no need to make any Sulfur dioxide from refinery. But it's kind of too easy.
2. The excess of Heavy Oil, Light Oil, and Petroleum Gas is always a pain for me. I know I can burn the excess out with additional mod but I'm just wondering if there's any way to use it? (In mid game my factory relies only solar power so no boiler is used. The trains consume fuel slowly.)

Armageddon (nice little disasters)
Bio Industries
Crafting Speed Research
FARL
HandyHands - Automatic handcrafting
Natural Evolution mods (Difficulty setting - 4)
Rampant (Difficulty scaling - 1.75)
Rampant Blockable Projectiles
Space Extension mod
Swarm
Teleportation
TinyStart3
Turret Delay
Wall Blocks Spitters

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Re: Feedback

Post by Trainwreck » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:52 am

Trainwreck wrote: So, I guess I'm asking to have it both ways. I want the "Throw more of the same stuff at it!"/logarithmic results progression of the base game, but with Bob's "Add something new" adding complexity at each step. That's probably easier said than done, but since asked for feedback, here it is.
I've made a mod that attempts to implement this balance. It's on the mod portal now called Circuit Processing.
I don't want to derail Bob's feedback thread so please leave any comments on my mod over in the mod portal discussion page.

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