Feedback

[foodfactorio]

Hello Bob - Happy New Year

ive had cool fun in 0.14 and 0.15 with my AngelBobs arumba pack, and while i did get a bit stuck going from Level 3 modules to Level 8, i did manage to get there in the end, and spent many hours well spent, including some funky angled uses of inserters

I dont really know too much in terms of statistics balancing, but from a players perspective, i can suggest 3 things for you that i think would be Fun to add to your cool mods if possible

Here is an example based on what i read earlier on this forum page about Bronze:
"DO you have piles of Bronze, just sitting there taking up space? (have you already built enough Bronze pipes to last you a lifetime?? - worry not, as now it can have a use)"

Idea 1:
What if you create a new Biter Enemy, which can Fly into our base like a Rogue Drone, but they dont like Bronze Statues..
This way, we can use Bronze to craft a series of Bronze Obelisks (or Needles, Statues etc), which slow down their movement, effectively repelling their advance, allowing our turrets to shoot them down.

The way to upgrade them, is to build Bronze Resonator, which needs a Bronze Obelisk, plus some other electrical stuff, and uses power to work, creating some kind of electric/magnetic field with higher strength than the basic Bronze Obelisk.


Idea 2:
In one of the Sinbad or Jason Argonauts films, there was a huge Bronze Talos statue....
What if there was 1 special building that we can make, but each one is made up of only a certain material (mostly), requiring a huge amount of it to build the Statue.
(its a bit like all those Wonders in Civ games)

This would not only be a cool item sink, for lots of spare items, but when used in combination with flying Biters, each main item (or colour) could have a special effect on them, such as making a huge Blue Obelisk (using all that Cobolt ive mined) lol and the blue properties seem to make the biter fly around it a few times or something.


Idea 3:
as you already have a cool set of bobs mods, if you feel that something extra is potentially missing like some more goals to help make the experience a bit more complete, then i politely ask you to check out my 1st mod idea (linked in my sig below) if you get 10mins spare to read it maybe you can help make it come true with your magic gems of coding skills?

[foodfactorio]

btw heres an example of items in warehouses i forgot to paste:
viewtopic.php?f=97&t=34176&start=20#p294780
Cascading Warehouses - show me the honey

[dyoung0224]

Hi Bob,
Apology for long post. No need to read all, skip down to bottom for summary. I try to describe my experience with Bobs mod from beginning

I played vanilla game several times, over 100 hours into gameplay. I always got to a point in the game where expanding my base involved increasing my production from x research packs to x+1 research packs. I had done the work, it was just a matter of increasing scale. And after a point (especially with logistics robots and nuclear power plants), it was no longer a challenge. Energy was near infinite and the biters could not even damage my walls before being obliterated by the turrets I had set up. Clearing out biter nests was as simple as hopping into my tank with a buttload of robots and wrecking havoc with uranium-enriched shells.

The game had lost its challenge, and therefore its fun.

After taking a break, I decided to look into mods for new challenge.

From my first impression, "Bobs Mod" was very intimidating. There were 10 different versions on the mod website. Bobs logistics, bobs ores, bobs inserters, bobs this, bobs that. Where to start? What does bobs mod do? There was no description on any of the mods. Could I use just one mod, or did I have to get all of them? Did "bobs ore mod" only add new ore types, or did it change the recipes of current items to use new ores?
There was no effort on explaining these things. So first suggestions, would be to explain your mods more thoroughly. Have dedicated fans type out descriptions for you. Would help beginners like myself

I decided to install all of them, because why not? When I start new game, everything was very confusing. New ore patches, circuit boards completely replaced, research packs have different requirements. Even basic equipment require completely different buildings now. I appreciate the new content, I like figuring things out, just like I did in vanilla game. But it is one thing to add a new recipe, it is another thing to replace vanilla game recipe. No warning of these changes, or change in tech tree. Suddenly I need wood, and tin wire, and solder, which requires more new items from more new items.
All of these recipes are cool, but I do not know which mods I installed to enable such changes, or how to control which mods did which change. Since they are not listed on mods or anywhere else that I can find...

Building new items requires completely new approach. It is challenging to make the logistics of new items work, it is fun. But the further I go, the more new items are required for each new item. It becomes almost frustrating, to want to build one thing using existing production capabilities, only to find out I need completely new production chain, with a completely new ore, to somehow include in my current layout. If I had knowledge beforehand, of what was required, I could plan better, but now I have to start over one section of my base, several times, for each new item I am making.
The sheer amount of liquids and intermediate products, makes the game very difficult to follow, without knowledge of these items. I have unlocked 10 or 15 different acids and metals, with no idea what their use is. I have to scroll over tooltip for each one, to find ingredients that are similar, to somehow piece together which ones I will need. It is a complex web and there is no guide. Many acids I can make, that I see no benefit for, maybe my research is not far enough to see what these acids are used for. But why allow the acids until the acids can be used?

It is clear your mod adds great depth to vanilla game. In some accounts, you double the recipes and capabilities of vanilla game, creates much more gameplay. I love the mod for this. However, vanilla game streamlines everything. Point A, to Point B, to Point C, to point D. Your mod starts at Point A, then you can go from Point B, C, D, Q, X, Theta, to the Batman symbol. And good luck along the way. I dont know how to streamline things better as I am still noob at Bobs Mod. This just my impression.

In Summary:
I think it would be helpful for casual gamers or mod-beginners, for you to include better descriptions of what your mods do. "Logistics mod adds logistic-related items to game" does not explain very much. We dont install mod for logistic items. We install mod to change gameplay; we want to know how this mod changes gameplay. What about logistics does it change?
It would be very helpful to consolidate your mods into a central control. You have made many changes through most aspects of the game, and it is great that we can choose which mods we want to install to change certain aspects. But how do we know which mods change which aspects in which ways, until we install them all and play until we figure it out? If you make a "bobs mod installer" of some sort, and give us options: "check here to add more vehicle types. check here to add more ammo types. check here to add more biter types. check here to replace circuit recipes. check here to add tier 4 and tier 5 assemblers. etc etc" if you put all of those options into one screen (or one mod?), it would give us an idea of what exactly we are signing up for. And it would let us customize our gameplay for maximum fun Having one mod to install rather than 10, would be much easier to keep up with as well. I dont think we'd mind the bigger file size, and it would make it easier for you to update also.
Just thoughts

[bobingabout]

for you to include better descriptions of what your mods do.

This is actually a big ask, and has come up several times before... I am looking into a solution for this.

"check here to add more vehicle types. check here to add more ammo types. check here to add more biter types. check here to replace circuit recipes. check here to add tier 4 and tier 5 assemblers. etc etc"

That's actually partly why the mods are split as they are. The idea of splitting the mods stems back to a time before the in game mod configuration options were a thing. Some mods, such as Electronics, do exactly that, they do a sweeping change to the way you make circuits, Assembly was a mod to add the tier 4 to 6 assembling machines, but now actually adds a fair bit more to the game, all higher tier production machines. And Enemies adds Enemies. It does get a bit more confusing with Warfare and Logistics, which add a bit of everything across the board, Warfare adds tanks, guns and ammo, where Logistics adds Trains, Belts, Inserters and Bots. The name of the mod is the theme. Also, most mods don't change a lot of base game related things, with the exception of Electronics and Modules that make sweeping changes in their area, and revamp restructures Oil, the way you get Sulphur, and everything related to the rocket silo. MCI changes the recipe of Battery, Logistics changes the recipe of robots and roboport, and warfare plays with gun ammo a little, and tech reworks the recipes of the science packs, but that's about it.

if you put all of those options into one screen (or one mod?), it would give us an idea of what exactly we are signing up for.

Trying to do something like that would be an insane amount of work. The way the mods are right now is designed to be in separate modules, electronics unquestionably does a sweeping change, putting all that inside an checkbox option wouldn't be too hard, but then you also have to go through all the small things, like data structure of the files (Which is different between different mods mind you), and all the mods have their own internal names that would need to be changed in every file that uses an icon (which is like, all of them)
On top of that, my Library mod is actually used by quite a few other mods, it offers quick and easy ways to add things like new ores to the game, or manipulate recipes with a single line of code. And my ores mod itself has been used by other mods too.

Lets just say combining all my mods into one is something that is unlikely to happen.

[bobingabout]

So I released the multiple bodies feature on the Classes mod.
opinions?

[TheBreadbird]

I like the idea but I have a feeling that the movement speed is a little OP as the fighter. Or at least I've been really jealous of my friend who went fighter when I went builder. The menu for choosing your class initially could be a little more than 4 little Icons maybe include what the class actually does.

[bobingabout]

I like the idea but I have a feeling that the movement speed is a little OP as the fighter. Or at least I've been really jealous of my friend who went fighter when I went builder. The menu for choosing your class initially could be a little more than 4 little Icons maybe include what the class actually does.

I could go with a more informative tooltip when you hover over the button, right now it just gives you the class name.

[foodfactorio]

hi bob, can i check please if im using the bob inserter options correctly in the screenshot?
(it is the inserter picking from the top of the screen, directly under the red "x1" button, and placing 2 squares down onto the vertical belt)

ive got all of the tech unlocked, but as far as i know, the 3x3 checkboxes for "offset", would only place on the Left side, if the middle left is clicked, and only the Right side of the belt if the middle right is clicked, but i cant get it to place on any free side of the belt, even if the middle checkbox is ticked?

is my understanding correct for what the middle box should do?

[bobingabout]

hi bob, can i check please if im using the bob inserter options correctly in the screenshot?
(it is the inserter picking from the top of the screen, directly under the red "x1" button, and placing 2 squares down onto the vertical belt)

ive got all of the tech unlocked, but as far as i know, the 3x3 checkboxes for "offset", would only place on the Left side, if the middle left is clicked, and only the Right side of the belt if the middle right is clicked, but i cant get it to place on any free side of the belt, even if the middle checkbox is ticked?

is my understanding correct for what the middle box should do?

Your presumption is wrong, the middle offset is... not really needed, because that places in the middle of the tile, when placing on a belt in such a manner, it will always place on one side not the other, a limitation to how the game works.

So, your configuration is correct... enough.

Suggestion: use 2 inserters (placed side by side) that pick up and drop onto the same tile, one inserter placing with a left offset, the other with the right offset.

[foodfactorio]

oh ok thanks for letting me know, (i can try your solution with 2 inserters)
& if the base game doesnt allow for 1 inserter to place on another side, if one side if already full, then i can raise it as a new idea for the devs (maybe they can make a new sensor-insertor, that costs a bit more to make, but can sense when 1 side is full and auto place to the other side)

btw i added some actual feedback about your greenhouse here: viewtopic.php?f=185&t=57861#p344192
(plus on page 2 show how your greenhouse feeds into a yuoki fual block)

[Feye]

Hello there!

First of all: Good f***n' job on your modpack!
Really awesome stuff!

I've been tinkering around in a game for a while, nothing too fancy, just slapped down some spaghetti to get stuff done, but I've found a missing piece of kit:
Steam, Compressed Air and Nitrogen tetroxide, Nitric Oxide and Nitrogen dioxide are missing their Voids to be processed by the Gas Venting Pump.

Why you would want to vent steam or compressed air can be discussed, but I listed them too because they're considered gaseous

I also noticed some recipes of the chemical processing don't allow Productivity Modules, but I'd assume this is to prevent infinite-stuff/power loops? Haven't math'd it out though..

[bobingabout]

Steam, Compressed Air and Nitrogen tetroxide, Nitric Oxide and Nitrogen dioxide are missing their Voids to be processed by the Gas Venting Pump.

Why you would want to vent steam or compressed air can be discussed, but I listed them too because they're considered gaseous

The main reason why they're not on the list is because, why would you want to? pretty much all the ones you listed there are things you'd go out of your way to make, typically the only output of the process, while the others that can be vented are all by-products (Sulfur Dioxide for example) or gained from a multiple output factory. (Oxygen, Nitrogen, Hydrogen and Chlorine)

I also noticed some recipes of the chemical processing don't allow Productivity Modules, but I'd assume this is to prevent infinite-stuff/power loops? Haven't math'd it out though..

The entire revamped rocket fuel chain doesn't allow productivity on purpose. it was requested, and I looked into it, but... that thing was built with a very fine balance in mind, and to add productivity would break that balance.

[Sarxis]

Hi Bob,

I just started using the inserters mod. The thing I don't know is if there is now any advantage to using the vanilla long handed inserters at all since the yellow inserters seem to be faster and do the same thing. I haven't advanced past the first long inserter tech, so I don't know if there will be a change later in the tech tree to warrant red inserter use.

Thanks for any info!

[ukezi]

Hi Bob,

I just started using the inserters mod. The thing I don't know is if there is now any advantage to using the vanilla long handed inserters at all since the yellow inserters seem to be faster and do the same thing. I haven't advanced past the first long inserter tech, so I don't know if there will be a change later in the tech tree to warrant red inserter use.

Thanks for any info!

not really. I the red ones are a bit faster (0.833s per turn compared to 1.191s) bob did say he wants to remove them in the future. Having looked that up, now I know why some of my factories are backing up, I calculated with a 1 turn/s for yellow.
@Bob
I think a good progression for inserter speed could be 0.01 burner(current value), 0.02 for yellow(0.014 current), 0.04 for red(current value for blue), 0.06 for blue, 0.08 for green and 0.1 for lila(current express). Corresponding to no, tier 1,tier 2,tier 3, tier 4, tier 5 electronics. Stack inserters would need tier+1 circuits or/and maybe some modules, I think productivity is a good option for that.
That would make the express inserters more expensive then they are at the moment. I think that is not bad. With the angle options you can get a quite ridiculous boost to transfer rate anyway. I also would remove the first level of reach research and put that into logistics 1. instead I would lock the 45° options in a additional level of more inserters.

[Feye]

The main reason why they're not on the list is because, why would you want to? pretty much all the ones you listed there are things you'd go out of your way to make, typically the only output of the process, while the others that can be vented are all by-products (Sulfur Dioxide for example) or gained from a multiple output factory. (Oxygen, Nitrogen, Hydrogen and Chlorine)

They're needed for Silver Zinc Batteries but not produced and consumed in equal quantities, so the whole process will back up and eventually come to halt. Basically the same reason for pretty much any other "venting". Nitric Oxide is the worst of the bunch since - as far as I can tell - it's only used to create Nitrogen Dioxide?

Maybe it's a special case here because I produce the Batteries (and Rocket Fuel because it fits perfectly to the stuff already being processed for the Batteries) in an isolated spot and don't export the surplus H2, O2, NO, NO2 and H2O I get ouf of it to anywhere.

[ukezi]

H2 and O2 you can vent. NO has H2O as byproduct, NO2 has non. You are gonna need the H2O for electrolysis anyway. If your setup is not big enough to hit the ratios exactly some factories are going to back up with there primary product, but that is not a problem.

[Sarxis]

Hi Bob,

I just started using the inserters mod. The thing I don't know is if there is now any advantage to using the vanilla long handed inserters at all since the yellow inserters seem to be faster and do the same thing. I haven't advanced past the first long inserter tech, so I don't know if there will be a change later in the tech tree to warrant red inserter use.

Thanks for any info!

not really....

Yes, you are right. I forgot that the red inserters are slightly faster! Nice early game fast inserter for those quick inserting needs.

[bobingabout]

The main reason why they're not on the list is because, why would you want to? pretty much all the ones you listed there are things you'd go out of your way to make, typically the only output of the process, while the others that can be vented are all by-products (Sulfur Dioxide for example) or gained from a multiple output factory. (Oxygen, Nitrogen, Hydrogen and Chlorine)

They're needed for Silver Zinc Batteries but not produced and consumed in equal quantities, so the whole process will back up and eventually come to halt. Basically the same reason for pretty much any other "venting". Nitric Oxide is the worst of the bunch since - as far as I can tell - it's only used to create Nitrogen Dioxide?

Maybe it's a special case here because I produce the Batteries (and Rocket Fuel because it fits perfectly to the stuff already being processed for the Batteries) in an isolated spot and don't export the surplus H2, O2, NO, NO2 and H2O I get ouf of it to anywhere.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dmjvz8wv7a9yc ... 5.png?dl=0
It's a closed loop with everything running nearly 100%. And the only thing being vented is oxygen.

There is of course a couple of checks, only let new water flow in if the tank is less than 80% full so that the feedback doesn't overflow, and vent only if the oxygen tank is above 80%. only let Electrolysis happen if Hydrogen is less than 80%, and only let air splitting happen if Nitrogen is less than 80%.

Yes, Oxygen is the only thing in this loop with an excess.

Hi Bob,

I just started using the inserters mod. The thing I don't know is if there is now any advantage to using the vanilla long handed inserters at all since the yellow inserters seem to be faster and do the same thing. I haven't advanced past the first long inserter tech, so I don't know if there will be a change later in the tech tree to warrant red inserter use.

Thanks for any info!

not really. I the red ones are a bit faster (0.833s per turn compared to 1.191s) bob did say he wants to remove them in the future. Having looked that up, now I know why some of my factories are backing up, I calculated with a 1 turn/s for yellow.
@Bob
I think a good progression for inserter speed could be 0.01 burner(current value), 0.02 for yellow(0.014 current), 0.04 for red(current value for blue), 0.06 for blue, 0.08 for green and 0.1 for lila(current express). Corresponding to no, tier 1,tier 2,tier 3, tier 4, tier 5 electronics. Stack inserters would need tier+1 circuits or/and maybe some modules, I think productivity is a good option for that.
That would make the express inserters more expensive then they are at the moment. I think that is not bad. With the angle options you can get a quite ridiculous boost to transfer rate anyway. I also would remove the first level of reach research and put that into logistics 1. instead I would lock the 45° options in a additional level of more inserters.

I've been doing some tests.

Code: Select all

Inserter values

burner-inserter: (best is yellow belt)
    extension_speed = 0.0214,
    rotation_speed = 0.01,
    energy_per_movement = 100000,
    energy_per_rotation = 100000,

Inserter: (best is red belt)
    extension_speed = 0.03,
    rotation_speed = 0.014,
    energy_per_movement = 5000,
    energy_per_rotation = 5000,
      drain = "0.4kW"

long-handed-inserter: (best is blue belt)
    extension_speed = 0.0457,
    rotation_speed = 0.02,
    energy_per_movement = 5000,
    energy_per_rotation = 5000,
      drain = "0.4kW"

fast-inserter: (best is purple belt)
    extension_speed = 0.07,
    rotation_speed = 0.04,
    energy_per_movement = 7000,
    energy_per_rotation = 7000,
      drain = "0.5kW"
filter-inserter:
    energy_per_movement = 8000,
    energy_per_rotation = 8000,
      drain = "0.5kW"
stack-inserter + stack-filter-inserter:
    energy_per_movement = 20000,
    energy_per_rotation = 20000,
      drain = "1kW"

express-inserter: (best is purple belt)
    extension_speed = 0.25,
    rotation_speed = 0.1,
    energy_per_movement = 10000,
    energy_per_rotation = 10000,
      drain = "0.7kW"
express-filter-inserter:
    energy_per_movement = 10000,
    energy_per_rotation = 10000,
      drain = "0.7kW"
express-stack-inserter + express-stack-filter-inserter:
    energy_per_movement = 25000,
    energy_per_rotation = 25000,
      drain = "1.5kW"

This is how things currently look in code (Note, if it lacks anything, EG, extension_speed, then it's probably the same as the thing above it), Yes, I have tweaked the power consumption of the express range of inserters.
Where it says "best is ### belt", I did a test where I had a belt going past 5 inserters, burner, standard, long(tweaked to a range of 1), fast, express in that order, and placed one item on the belt at a time, if the slowest inserter couldn't grab it, it moved on to the next etc. and repeated the experiment with different tier belts.
My findings show that you need approximately 0.007 rotation speed to grab an item per 1/32 belt speed. (belts are 1/32, 2/32, 3/32, 4/32 and 5/32 respectively, IE, items are moved 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 pixels per tick, same as belt tier)
This can be seen because a rotation speed of 0.014 can grab from red, but 0.02 (just under 3 times 0.007) can grab from blue. Going by these numbers I could put the current fast inserter to about 0.03 as the new express inserter (because long becomes the new fast), however, I'm not sure I want to tweak these values all that much. Perhaps make a bit more of a difference on the lower end, but mostly I'm thinking slot something between current fast and express at a rotation speed of about 0.07.

Also change the colours of everything, so every tier goes yellow, red, blue, green, purple, so you'd be reliant alone on the beefier arm to signify if it's stack or not, then we possibly need something to indicate if it should be filter or not.

[mrvn]

Note that such exact timimg only works if the inserter is idle so it starts moving the moment the item enters the belt tile. Also only if the item is on the right side of the belt.

The adjustable inserters also make such precise calculations moot.

[bobingabout]

Note that such exact timimg only works if the inserter is idle so it starts moving the moment the item enters the belt tile. Also only if the item is on the right side of the belt.

The adjustable inserters also make such precise calculations moot.

Here's a point though.

Inserters themselves are part of the Logistics mod.
I am not sure how I should handle the differences for when the inserters mod is or isn't installed, because when it isn't installed, you want long inserters, when it is, you don't.

This is why the top GUI used to be part of the Logistics mod, would be simple if it was still there, because then you'd have long inserters via the top menu, and wouldn't need to bother with multiple entities.
Perhaps I should include that top GUI in both mods?

Going back to 0.12 when I did the migration from multiple entities to a GUI, I had the issue where it was possible for these special inserters to revert to standard inserters. if I repurpose the long inserter into a standard reach inserter, you could end up with the same thing happen. I'm not sure how I should go about changing things here either. maybe just leave the old long handed inserter entity in the world, and have it return a new fast(red) inserter item.


On that note, inserters will have a name to match their belt. Currently, this is Standard (no name), Fast, Express, Faster and Extremely fast. I am open to suggestions, but what I have written down at the moment is... Standard (no name), Fast, Express, Turbo, Extreme. Not too keen on having 2 starting with E in there. Someone suggested Ultimate. (SFETU!)


I'll also be completely redoing all the belt(and UG belt, and splitter) recipes as a minimum. it costs half a gear and half a plate to make a standard belt (1 of each gives 2), which, okay fair enough, can't really change it because it's an essential part of research, and feels expensive when you're just starting out. But then it costs 5 gears to upgrade each belt to a fast belt, and 20 plus lube to upgrade that to express. (And Express belt is the only recipe in this whole chain with an expensive mode recipe, even the express splitter or UG belt don't. I hate this inconsistency) so an express belt contains half an iron plate and 25 and a half gears.

The plan is to make fast belts cost 5 steel gears AND a steel plate (or more than one?), and then the previous tier belt would be an option. then 5 brass gears, some steel bearings and an aluminium plate for Express (no lube here), and then titanium plate, bearings and gears for green belts (bearings contain lube), then same with nitinol for Purple. All stages, previous tier is OPTIONAL.

For the UG belt and Splitter, the recipe will be different depending on the option. if you go for including previous tier, then as now you'll upgrade the previous tier splitter into the new one, with appropriate costs to upgrade the belts within it, and the splitter itself, such as a few extra plates and electronics (at the moment, the prices to upgrade some of these things is way out, express splitter costs 80 gears, which is either too much for standard recipe, or not enough for expensive)
If you have the option turned off, then it will cost 2(Probably) belts of the correct tier, with electronics and extra plates etc. The price in the current tier of materials should in theory be the same either way, the only difference is if it costs the previous tier or not.

There is also the option of adding in brass bearings to fill the gap with steel, because that tier 3 uses 3 different materials, where every other tier uses only 1 type. The brass bearing could require lube to make like the higher tier ones do and therefore express inserters would still cost lube to build.

Inserter recipes will get the same treatment too, iron, steel, brass/aluminium, titanium, nitinol.


I guess I could change the standard belt to cost something more pricey like 5 gears and a plate on par with what I want to do for the additional tiers if I make a tier 0 black coloured (to match burner inserter) basic belt (And change the science pack to cost this), but that depends if it is possible to make a belt move by say... half a pixel per tick. Someone also suggests belts should cost some rubber. Some people also suggest I should make belt tiers double in speed every step, not just add the same 1/32 each time, which means express would move at the current speed of green, but then green and purple could be silly fast. purple would be 16/32, which is more than 3 times the current speed, and would need an inserter with rotation of 0.112, which is higher than my current top tier inserter. Also anything faster than 9/32 would see inserters dropping more than 1 items on the belt per tick, so, that could(completely untested) be bad for belt compression.