[0.12.x][v0.12.8] Bob's Power mod

[Cooolaid]

this might solve your problems

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 91&t=13782

[crysanja]

i guess you are right that it is wrong.

maybe the coal useage should go up, but the pollution production stalled or reduced in proportion.

---
the real problem is with picking real units for the game.
if the Factorio team would create their own units, this problem could never exist in the first place.

[bobingabout]

The big issue I have with the steam power entities is that the game already gives you something that is fairly efficient, it doesn't give you much room to work with when upgrading if you want to keep things within the realm of realism. So I basically say... How much power is in a peice of coal? instead of 8MJ, maybe it should be more like 80MJ? If that were the case, the base game boilers and furnaces and stuff is pretty low in efficiency, and mine add a lot of improvements. 48 from 80 is only 60% efficient which is still realistic. The problem is to change a coal to 80MJ for the purposes of realistic feedback would require a lot of reballancing across the board, and I just didn't want to write in scripts to try and reballance everything.

The steps in improved efficiency of the steam engines is a bit high, but the MK3 steam engine is my desired end point. Perhaps the stats should be on a MK4, with a new MK3 somewhere between MK2 and the current MK3.

as for the hydrogen fuel blocks thing... Hydrogen was never intended to be used as a fuel source in my mod, that was added in later as a control method, you can make it from the oil chain if you need more, or burn it if you have too much, as a means of ballancing Oxygen, Hydrogen and Chlorine. Now that I've added the void pumps, I could just remove the Hydrogen to Fuel block recipe, and that issue would be solved.

[F-W]

So, you think, 12-times fuel consumption reduction is OK and pretty ballanced?


I want to say, that original factorio numbers are quite good. Maybe, with your longer production chains you need some more energy. But, in my view, 2-3 times fuel use reduction will be enough, not 12 times.

[bobingabout]

Maybe this needs a config, like everything else.

[adalah217]

Well, it seems to me, that high tier boilers and steam engines are completely-100%-overpowered. Why?

How much more it produses? Well, with one single piece of solid fuel it produses 50 pieces. So, why we need solar, coal or oil? We will produse enegy from nothing!

Well, from a design perspective, the solar power produces energy from nothing too. You plop down a solar panel and it produces energy from nothing in the game (besides sacrificing the space for the solar panel area). Of course we can rationalize this as "well it takes sunlight!" But the reality is, the solar panel uses no resources, as sunlight is not a resource here. In the game, this steam engine you've produce is (I'm assuming) far less efficient than the same area of the most upgraded solar panels, right? Well, all you need is a way to rationalize this "infinite" energy source, just as we can rationalize the solar panel "infinite" energy source. Maybe the higher end boilers are able to utilize wind and solar, but require the first spark of energy to come from somewhere else?

All I'm trying to say is the real world explanation can be made up later to account for the game's design. Game design shouldn't necessarily be compromised by real world design.

[Cooolaid]

the solar power produces energy from nothing too. You plop down a solar panel and it produces energy from nothing in the game (besides sacrificing the space for the solar panel area). Of course we can rationalize this as "well it takes sunlight!" But the reality is, the solar panel uses no resources, as sunlight is not a resource here.

Actually:
Solar Panels—The panels are made up of photovoltaic (PV) cells, ((light hits your solar panels with "photons" (particles of sunlight).)) which convert sunlight into direct current (DC) electricity throughout the day.
Inverter—This device converts the DC electricity generated by the solar panels into the alternating current (AC) electricity ((converts those photons into electrons)).
The electrons flow out of the solar panel and into an inverter and other electrical devices. The inverter converts that "DC" power (commonly used in batteries) into (AC) power.

So when you say it produces energy from nothing, it's quite the opposite. - it produces it from "photons" which then gets inverted into Electrons, then into Electricity..


Maybe the mod needs an Inverter in different sizes and a couple of other units, before Protons can be used as Electricity through the solar panels.
Also can be used as a step to actually finishing off the creation of batteries, since DC is used within Batteries to make energy.
A few steps one must do before actually being able to produce electricity & items in several ways.. (hint hint)

[adalah217]

the solar power produces energy from nothing too. You plop down a solar panel and it produces energy from nothing in the game (besides sacrificing the space for the solar panel area). Of course we can rationalize this as "well it takes sunlight!" But the reality is, the solar panel uses no resources, as sunlight is not a resource here.

Actually:

Maybe the mod needs an Inverter in different sizes and a couple of other units, before Protons can be used as Electricity through the solar panels.
Also can be used as a step to actually finishing off the creation of batteries, since DC is used within Batteries to make energy.
A few steps one must do before actually being able to produce electricity & items in several ways.. (hint hint)

I'm well aware of how solar panels work in the physical world

However in a literal sense, in the game, solar panels do not take in photons. Photons do not exist. A simple day and night system exists.
Going off that, the solar panels in the game produces energy from nothing, similar to how the "infinite energy" steam engine works.

In the game, just come up with a physical world explanation for how the boiler and steam engine produces "energy from nothing". Taking my example from earlier: the boiler just needs to be lit at first with coal or other material. After that, it can utilize wind and solar to produce far more energy than is gained normally by burning the coal in the first place.

Again: All I'm trying to say is the real world explanation can be made up later to account for the game's design. Game design shouldn't necessarily be compromised by real world design. You're complicating the game with realism to a point where it wouldn't be fun.

[Kayser]

I disagree that config is the solution. Part of the fun with a mod-pack you want to compare your buids/efforts with others'. The more you individualize, the less interesting those comparisons will be. (What fun is is to say: -Hey, look at my clever energy build with Bob's mods; by the way I turned all the yields down 50-times to engineer a problem that didn't exist in the first place.)

The problem with the closed loop is both that the efficiency of the boiler/steam engine is too high, and that the energy cost of electrolysis is way too low. It actually makes sense to use hydrogen for fuel, but that should not yield more energy than it took to make it.

I still like, however, that it makes conventional power generation a viable option to solar. So, if the efficiencies of the steam chain are loweded (as I would like), solar should follow. I don't have an issue with that (the issue I have with solar is that feels much easier to make a lot of MK1 solar cells than to set up production and use MK2:s, as it is only 50% better. I would like to see one or two more generations of solars, with 100% increase per generation or so.)

Still GREAT work with the mods. Love the depth and complexity it adds overall.

[KNOWFEAR1337]

The problem with the closed loop is both that the efficiency of the boiler/steam engine is too high, and that the energy cost of electrolysis is way too low. It actually makes sense to use hydrogen for fuel, but that should not yield more energy than it took to make it.

Actually it SHOULD make more power than it took to make or what would be the point in making fuel out of it,

"Since each mole of water requires two moles of electrons, and given that the Faraday constant F represents the charge of a mole of electrons (96485 C/mol), it follows that the minimum voltage necessary for electrolysis is about 1.23 V.[17] If electrolysis is carried out at high temperature this voltage reduces. This effectively allows the electrolyser to operate at more than 100% electrical efficiency. In electrochemical systems this means that heat must be supplied to the reactor to sustain the reaction. In this way thermal energy can be used for part of the electrolysis energy requirement.[18] In a similar way the required voltage can be reduced if a fuel (such as carbon) is reacted with the oxygen produced. This results in some of the fuels energy being used to "assist" the electrolysis process and can reduce the overall cost of hydrogen produced.[19]

However, observing the entropy component (and other losses), voltages over 1.48 V are required for the reaction to proceed at practical current densities (the thermoneutral voltage).

In the case of water electrolysis, Gibbs free energy represents the minimum work necessary for the reaction to proceed, and the reaction enthalpy is the amount of energy (both work and heat) that has to be provided so the reaction products are at the same temperature as the reactant (i.e. standard temperature for the values given above). An electrolyser operating at 1.48 V would be 100% efficient."

there are also cars that run straight off of this reaction

[bobingabout]

If they can make a car, that not only Electrolyses Hydrogen, but then runs off it, that is effectively getting more energy out of the reaction than you put in to making it. Isn't that essentially what we are doing with my electrolysis chain?

And consider that the same electrolysers that you produce hydrogen and oxygen with can be used to produce aluminium, that needs to be heated to melt alumina before it can electrolyse it, then you should assume the process is heated in the hydrogen methods too.


I agree though that my steam engines should be revisited... not only can you run more engines on a single line, but each engine also produces more energy, on top of that each boiler is more efficient too, that's a tripple bonus multiplier! if you assumed only 50% bonus per stage, that's 50%, 50% and 50%, giving a more than a 230% bonus in total! Now, I am okay with a double bonus from both the boiler, and the engine, but the engines themself should probably give only a 50% bonus in total, not two of them. Plus the bonus isn't 50%.

[Degraine]

Klonan built his oil fired burner to support ten engines at once, which conveniently replaces my original 1/5/20 pump/boiler/engine setup with a 1/1/20 pump/oil boiler/engine arrangement using your mk.3 engines.

And it gives an energy boost since his steam fluid has a slightly higher energy content than hot water.

[Kayser]

Actually it SHOULD make more power than it took to make or what would be the point in making fuel out of it,

The point in my case is that I do the water electrolysis anyway to obtain oxygen for ore processing. The reason for making fuel out of the hydrogen gas it is that it nets more energy than to throw the gas away. The difference is that I already have the hydrogen gas; I'm not making it to use it as fuel.

I don't know a whole lot about the science of electrolysis, but I thought making a closed loop that nets energy defeats the laws of thermodynamics. It also makes the game less fun, since it eliminates the need to obtain fuel from other sources.

[F-W]

I don't know a whole lot about the science of electrolysis, but I thought making a closed loop that nets energy defeats the laws of thermodynamics.

And it really is! It is impossible to make a closed loop which will produces more energy, than consumes. In that Wiki article was said only about electrical efficiency, only if you have some source of infinite heat energy, to heat water and make electrolysis easier. However, total energy input of the system (heat+electric) will be always less than total energy output, because of energy losses.

So car that will runs only using some kind of high efficient electrolysis is impossible. Maybe hybrid car could use electrolysis to utilize waste heat from regular engine, but I doubt it, cause there are more simple ways to convert heat to electric energy.


And a few words about solid fuel from hydrogen. Making solid fuel only from hydrogen is unrealistic. There are no ways to make hydrogen solid in normal conditions (without high pressure / low temperature / nuclear fusion ? 0_о). I see two possible ways to make it more realistic: either using some kind of very advanced high absorptive material, or use carbon and hydrogen to make solid hydrocarbons.


And one more thing for Bob. I already begun to make my own "trying to make it as balanced as possible" mod, using some of your technologies, and found you missed a string in your entities - boilers, so there are no pipe covers on them now.

Bob2.JPG (51.91 KiB) Viewed 10780 times

I think you need to add string:

Code: Select all

 pipe_covers = pipecoverspictures(),

to "fluid_box"...

[bobingabout]

This is a case of them changing the way the boiler works between versions. there were no pipe graphics required previously because when they weren't connected to anything, there were no pipes to cover.

[DerivePi]

I would like to suggest the following balance changes for the solar panels and accumulators:
Change 1 - solar panel "Economy of Scale"
- Reduce the small panel production by 10% (24 kW for small panel 1) and increase the large panel production by 10% (120 kW for Large panel 1)
- Increase cost of small panel by 1 circuit board and decrease cost of large panel by 1 circuit board for each level or see change 3

Change 2 - Large Capacity Accumulator (LCA) - Reduce its capacity to 50% above the normal accumulator (or less) and further decrease its energy transfer rate so that it is not fully effective on a day cycle as follows:
- The current LCA 1 has a capacity of 10,000 kJ. To be fully effective over a day cycle it needs to fully discharge over 125 seconds (this accounts for the peak rate at night) or at a rate of 80 kW. To make standard accumulators even a consideration, the transfer rate for LCA 1s would need to be less than 40 kW. At this threshold, the only reason for large accumulators would be extra energy storage for short term uses. I don't see any use for the Fast Accumulator other than as an accumulator switch for Steam Generators (Steam Generators charge fast accumulators on one independent circuit and those fast accumulators are connected to another circuit that provides power for the factory).

Change 3 - Reduce cost for level 2s and 3s - Its hard to justify the significant cost for higher level items
- For solar panels use 1 ingredient item each for small , 2 for medium and 3 for large (for silicon wafers use 6, 12 and 18 just to mess things up)
- For accumulators reduce the electronic circuit ingredients from 5 to just 1 at each level.

Change 4 - Solar Panel Stack Size - 100 for small, 50 for medium and 30 for large solar panels


For those playing at the current levels - the Accumulator to Solar Panel ratio is 5 small solar panels for every large capacity accumulator at equal levels or 8 and 12 for small solar panel 1s to large accumulators 2 and 3 respectively

[Kayser]

I would like to suggest the following balance changes for the solar panels and accumulators:
Change 1 - solar panel "Economy of Scale"
- Reduce the small panel production by 10% (24 kW for small panel 1) and increase the large panel production by 10% (120 kW for Large panel 1)
- Increase cost of small panel by 1 circuit board and decrease cost of large panel by 1 circuit board for each level or see change 3

Change 2 - Large Capacity Accumulator (LCA) - Reduce its capacity to 50% above the normal accumulator (or less) and further decrease its energy transfer rate so that it is not fully effective on a day cycle as follows:
- The current LCA 1 has a capacity of 10,000 kJ. To be fully effective over a day cycle it needs to fully discharge over 125 seconds (this accounts for the peak rate at night) or at a rate of 80 kW. To make standard accumulators even a consideration, the transfer rate for LCA 1s would need to be less than 40 kW. At this threshold, the only reason for large accumulators would be extra energy storage for short term uses. I don't see any use for the Fast Accumulator other than as an accumulator switch for Steam Generators (Steam Generators charge fast accumulators on one independent circuit and those fast accumulators are connected to another circuit that provides power for the factory).

Change 3 - Reduce cost for level 2s and 3s - Its hard to justify the significant cost for higher level items
- For solar panels use 1 ingredient item each for small , 2 for medium and 3 for large (for silicon wafers use 6, 12 and 18 just to mess things up)
- For accumulators reduce the electronic circuit ingredients from 5 to just 1 at each level.

Change 4 - Solar Panel Stack Size - 100 for small, 50 for medium and 30 for large solar panels


For those playing at the current levels - the Accumulator to Solar Panel ratio is 5 small solar panels for every large capacity accumulator at equal levels or 8 and 12 for small solar panel 1s to large accumulators 2 and 3 respectively

I agree it's not optimally fun the way it's currently configured. There is no rationale to go beyond MK1 panels and LCAs unless space is tight (which it normally isn't). If different types and more advanced versions should exist, the player must somehow be rewarded for producing the right mix of types and setting up the production of more advanced versions. I.e. it could very well be cumbersome to set up, but should be more resource efficient overall to build 2*MK2 instead of 3*MK1 (assuming 50% better performance of MK2 vs. MK1). Hell, the base versions could even be made so inefficient you almost don't want to go through the work of placing them before you can upgrade. The player then has a choice to postpone the solar revolution until MK2 is directly available, but then he/she must compensate with more steam power - an interesting choice.

Considering the different types of accumulators, there should be some rationale to actually use the different types. As said, all you need right now is a bunch of LCAs.

Regarding sizes I like that there is a choice, but maybe, as said, there should be a small reward for going big (because it's a little harder to plan out). Right now I'm going with big ones anyway, because I like how they look.

[bobingabout]

The current small/normal/large model is based on the number of tiles the panel occupies, so small is 2^2(or 2x2) or 4 tiles, medium is 3^2 or 9 tiles, large is 4^2 or 16 tiles, so the costs are based on 4, 9 or 16, not 1, 2 and 3 as you sugest it should be(if you did want to get rid of the square, it would be 2, 3 and 4, not 1, 2 and 3). Due to the fact that the original costs of the normal solar panel do no easilly divide by 9, this is the result of some of the odd costs. Power output of each solar panel matchs this ratio, it is easier however to see on the MK2 where they give 10kW power per tile, resulting in 40, 90 and 160.


These upgrade costs, and resultant efficiency are things I would be more willing to change though.

[DerivePi]

The current small/normal/large model is based on the number of tiles the panel occupies, so small is 2^2(or 2x2) or 4 tiles, medium is 3^2 or 9 tiles, large is 4^2 or 16 tiles, so the costs are based on 4, 9 or 16, not 1, 2 and 3 as you sugest it should be(if you did want to get rid of the square, it would be 2, 3 and 4, not 1, 2 and 3). Due to the fact that the original costs of the normal solar panel do no easilly divide by 9, this is the result of some of the odd costs. Power output of each solar panel matchs this ratio, it is easier however to see on the MK2 where they give 10kW power per tile, resulting in 40, 90 and 160.


These upgrade costs, and resultant efficiency are things I would be more willing to change though.

Yes, I noted the 1 to 1 area ratio. Of course the final numbers are yours to decide. I am just suggesting a fairly drastic reduction in production costs for advanced (level 2 and 3) solar panels (as a player I need thousands of solar panels and I don't want to wait that long for the premium advanced circuits (white circuit) and processor unit (green circuit) since I don't get that much added kW in return. I'm also happy to skew the result to promote the larger, harder to fit in solar panel over the more flexible, smaller 2x2 solar panel (the 1, 2, 3 ratio does that). As for the weird numbers, I always round them off (unless its Pi).

[Airat9000]

please more new solar panels!

compact in power
600kw
6 mw
60 mw
600 mw

recipe
in 10x in up level

and hardness technology
100x up level

i am help to coding you.