[0.17.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

[BlueTemplar]

IIRC cobaltite isn't supposed to appear on the map, like sulphur (in 0.16 at least), you're supposed to get it as a byproduct ?

[bobingabout]

Is Cobaltite a really rare spawn chance? I just spent about 15 minutes driving around in the car as soon as I unlocked it, and saw some of everything else. Single patches of Rutile and Gemstones, 2-3 of Uranium, Tungsten, Silver, & Gold. Plenty of Nickel, Galena, Zinc, Silicon, etc. I am using RSO with default settings, which will likely make a difference here.

This is my first Bob's only game (did Bobs & Angels together last time), so I'm still getting used to the number of raw ores with plain-Bob.

Cobaltite is one of the ores not turned on by default.
The reason being, you don't actually need the ore, you just need cobalt oxide, and usually small quantities as there's very few things use it.

If you look at the cobalt processing research, it unlocks a recipe called advanced copper smelting, which has cobalt oxide as a byproduct. That's where you're supposed to get it from.

[RocketManChronicles]

Is Cobaltite a really rare spawn chance? I just spent about 15 minutes driving around in the car as soon as I unlocked it, and saw some of everything else. Single patches of Rutile and Gemstones, 2-3 of Uranium, Tungsten, Silver, & Gold. Plenty of Nickel, Galena, Zinc, Silicon, etc. I am using RSO with default settings, which will likely make a difference here.

This is my first Bob's only game (did Bobs & Angels together last time), so I'm still getting used to the number of raw ores with plain-Bob.

Cobaltite is one of the ores not turned on by default.
The reason being, you don't actually need the ore, you just need cobalt oxide, and usually small quantities as there's very few things use it.

If you look at the cobalt processing research, it unlocks a recipe called advanced copper smelting, which has cobalt oxide as a byproduct. That's where you're supposed to get it from.

And getting it as a byproduct here is WAY MORE than enough for its uses. You will accumulate Cobalt Oxide like you do Sodium Hydroxide. To help alleviate the accumulation, I have an array of the Advanced Copper Smelting that turns on/off depending on the Cobalt demand. Just have it ready to go for when you need it.

[bobingabout]

You will accumulate Cobalt Oxide like you do Sodium Hydroxide.

I have a huge Sodium Hydroxide deficiency at the moment. I'm having to vent hydrogen and chlorine just to keep the Chemical science going.

[evandy]

Is Cobaltite a really rare spawn chance? I just spent about 15 minutes driving around in the car as soon as I unlocked it, and saw some of everything else. Single patches of Rutile and Gemstones, 2-3 of Uranium, Tungsten, Silver, & Gold. Plenty of Nickel, Galena, Zinc, Silicon, etc. I am using RSO with default settings, which will likely make a difference here.

This is my first Bob's only game (did Bobs & Angels together last time), so I'm still getting used to the number of raw ores with plain-Bob.

Cobaltite is one of the ores not turned on by default.
The reason being, you don't actually need the ore, you just need cobalt oxide, and usually small quantities as there's very few things use it.

If you look at the cobalt processing research, it unlocks a recipe called advanced copper smelting, which has cobalt oxide as a byproduct. That's where you're supposed to get it from.

And getting it as a byproduct here is WAY MORE than enough for its uses. You will accumulate Cobalt Oxide like you do Sodium Hydroxide. To help alleviate the accumulation, I have an array of the Advanced Copper Smelting that turns on/off depending on the Cobalt demand. Just have it ready to go for when you need it.

Odd. I didn’t see the byproduct recipe in fnei. Maybe I was looking for cobaltite directly and not one of the downstream products. It was a byproduct of carbon processing in angel bob iirc. All the processing chains seem much simpler without angels in place. Nice to start getting some use out of bob’s furnaces and such that were replaced by the Angel stuff though.

[evandy]

You will accumulate Cobalt Oxide like you do Sodium Hydroxide.

I have a huge Sodium Hydroxide deficiency at the moment. I'm having to vent hydrogen and chlorine just to keep the Chemical science going.

Not that far in this game yet but that’s what I did in my Angel Bob game too. Now that it is on the science pack inputs there is always a demand for it.

[RocketManChronicles]

You will accumulate Cobalt Oxide like you do Sodium Hydroxide.

I have a huge Sodium Hydroxide deficiency at the moment. I'm having to vent hydrogen and chlorine just to keep the Chemical science going.

Not that far in this game yet but that’s what I did in my Angel Bob game too. Now that it is on the science pack inputs there is always a demand for it.

Having played another 50 hours in the current play, I have overcome that deficiency (Sodium Hydroxide). Came with streamlining a few production operations along the way. But now.... I have over 6 million Sodium Hydroxide in storage, lol. Thanks to the Flare Stack mod, I am burning the excess off (gonna try to keep it around 1 million, seems reasonable). The problem with Sodium Hydroxide is that you cannot restrict its accumulation like you can Cobalt Oxide. Cobalt Oxide, being from Copper production, at least has an 'out,' production of copper normally. You can switch smelting arrays back and forth between the 'normal' copper production and the advanced production to keep copper going. If done correctly, copper demand never slows down, and you switch arrays only when Cobalt Oxide is demanded.

[bobingabout]

MCI 0.17.13:
Added a nuclear overhaul. It's optional, off by default. It makes plutonium harder to get, adds a plutonium fuel cell for the uranium reactor, and adds fusion catalyst needed to make the deuterium fuel cell, and changes most used-up fuel cell results and fuel cell's recipes and fuel values.
Halved the fuel value of Deuterium, the old value was based on pre-0.17 calculations.

what exactly changed?
Overhaul off
Uranium fuel cell: 10 Lead plate + 19 U238 + 1 U235 -> 10 Uranium fuel cells @ 8GJ each
Thorium fuel cell: 10 Lead plate + 19 T232 + 1 U235 -> 10 Thorium fuel cells @ 6GJ each
Plutonium-thorium fuel cell: 2 Lead plate + 2 T232 + 2 P239 -> 2 Plutonium-thorium fuel cells @ 40GJ each (Requires a material (Plutonium) from reprocessing fuel cells)
Deuterium fuel cell: 10 Lead plate + 200 Deuterium -> 10 Deuterium fuel cells @ 100GJ each

Used up Uranium fuel cell reprocessing: 5 Used up Uranium fuel cells -> 5 Lead + 3 U238 + 10% P239
Used up Thorium fuel cell reprocessing: 5 Used up Thorium fuel cells -> 5 Lead + 3 T232 + 1 P239 + 5% T232 + 10% P239
Used up Deuterium fuel cell reprocessing: 5 Used up Deuterium fuel cells -> 3 to 7 Lead + 5% lithium (Whoops, I forgot to normalise the lead here)

Overhaul on
Uranium fuel cell: 10 Lead plate + 19 U238 + 1 U235 -> 10 Uranium fuel cells @ 8GJ each (no change)
Thorium fuel cell: 10 Lead plate + 19 T232 + 1 U235 -> 10 Thorium fuel cells @ 12GJ each
(These all require a material (Plutonium or Fusion Catalyst) from reprocessing fuel cells)
Plutonium (Uranium) fuel cell: 10 Lead plate + 19 U238 + 1 P239 -> 10 Plutonium fuel cells @ 40GJ each (new)
Plutonium-thorium fuel cell: 10 Lead plate + 19 T232 + 1 P239 -> 10 Plutonium-thorium fuel cells @ 60GJ each
Deuterium fuel cell: 10 Lead plate + 190 Deuterium + 1 Fusion Catalyst -> 10 Deuterium fuel cells @ 80GJ each

Used up Uranium fuel cell reprocessing: 5 Used up Uranium fuel cells -> 5 Lead + 3 U238 + 10% U235 + 40% P239 + 50% Fusion Catalyst
Used up Thorium fuel cell reprocessing: 5 Used up Thorium fuel cells -> 5 Lead + 2 T232 + 1 to 2 U235 + 50% Fusion Catalyst (No more Plutonium)
Used up Deuterium fuel cell reprocessing: 5 Used up Deuterium fuel cells -> 3 to 7 Lead + 5% lithium + 50% Fusion Catalyst (Whoops, I forgot to normalise the lead here)


Why is the update optional and off by default?
We've past the 0.17 stable point, I don't want to break things at this point, and these changes could upset some people.
for 0.18 I plan to remove the option and delete the older configuration.

[evandy]

You will accumulate Cobalt Oxide like you do Sodium Hydroxide.

I have a huge Sodium Hydroxide deficiency at the moment. I'm having to vent hydrogen and chlorine just to keep the Chemical science going.

Not that far in this game yet but that’s what I did in my Angel Bob game too. Now that it is on the science pack inputs there is always a demand for it.

Hey bob, I just realized that I don’t have thorium yet either. Do I need to turn that on? The new nuclear ratios look nice! I have always preferred nuclear to solar. If I wanted to cookie cutter stuff with no tinkering I would not be playing factorio.

[bobingabout]

You will accumulate Cobalt Oxide like you do Sodium Hydroxide.

I have a huge Sodium Hydroxide deficiency at the moment. I'm having to vent hydrogen and chlorine just to keep the Chemical science going.

Not that far in this game yet but that’s what I did in my Angel Bob game too. Now that it is on the science pack inputs there is always a demand for it.

Hey bob, I just realized that I don’t have thorium yet either. Do I need to turn that on? The new nuclear ratios look nice! I have always preferred nuclear to solar. If I wanted to cookie cutter stuff with no tinkering I would not be playing factorio.

if you have the option to allow bobplates/MCI to enable required ores (on by default) then Thorium is one of the ores it turns on, so you'll just have to keep looking. (But it only enables it since Thorium processing was introduced, if it's an old map, you'll need to explore further out)

[evandy]

Cobaltite is one of the ores not turned on by default.
The reason being, you don't actually need the ore, you just need cobalt oxide, and usually small quantities as there's very few things use it.

If you look at the cobalt processing research, it unlocks a recipe called advanced copper smelting, which has cobalt oxide as a byproduct. That's where you're supposed to get it from.

Played around with the console at home... I have all of Bob's enabled (so MCI overrides the settings from Bob's Ores). I did a force map reveal, and played around with the RSO settings because I really didn't like the pattern that I was seeing (patches were WAAAAY too big). Since I was in the starting area other than my driving around, this doesn't seem like a cheat or anything. Based on the list from Bob's Ores, I have everything on the map somewhere other than the Cobaltite, Sulphur, and Water. If the Cobaltite is supposed to be off by default, then I guess we should be okay. Thanks for the info.

[RocketManChronicles]

MCI 0.17.13:
Added a nuclear overhaul. It's optional, off by default. It makes plutonium harder to get, adds a plutonium fuel cell for the uranium reactor, and adds fusion catalyst needed to make the deuterium fuel cell, and changes most used-up fuel cell results and fuel cell's recipes and fuel values.
Halved the fuel value of Deuterium, the old value was based on pre-0.17 calculations.

what exactly changed?
Overhaul off
Uranium fuel cell: 10 Lead plate + 19 U238 + 1 U235 -> 10 Uranium fuel cells @ 8GJ each
Thorium fuel cell: 10 Lead plate + 19 T232 + 1 U235 -> 10 Thorium fuel cells @ 6GJ each
Plutonium-thorium fuel cell: 2 Lead plate + 2 T232 + 2 P239 -> 2 Plutonium-thorium fuel cells @ 40GJ each (Requires a material (Plutonium) from reprocessing fuel cells)
Deuterium fuel cell: 10 Lead plate + 200 Deuterium -> 10 Deuterium fuel cells @ 100GJ each

Used up Uranium fuel cell reprocessing: 5 Used up Uranium fuel cells -> 5 Lead + 3 U238 + 10% P239
Used up Thorium fuel cell reprocessing: 5 Used up Thorium fuel cells -> 5 Lead + 3 T232 + 1 P239 + 5% T232 + 10% P239
Used up Deuterium fuel cell reprocessing: 5 Used up Deuterium fuel cells -> 3 to 7 Lead + 5% lithium (Whoops, I forgot to normalise the lead here)

Overhaul on
Uranium fuel cell: 10 Lead plate + 19 U238 + 1 U235 -> 10 Uranium fuel cells @ 8GJ each (no change)
Thorium fuel cell: 10 Lead plate + 19 T232 + 1 U235 -> 10 Thorium fuel cells @ 12GJ each
(These all require a material (Plutonium or Fusion Catalyst) from reprocessing fuel cells)
Plutonium (Uranium) fuel cell: 10 Lead plate + 19 U238 + 1 P239 -> 10 Plutonium fuel cells @ 40GJ each (new)
Plutonium-thorium fuel cell: 10 Lead plate + 19 T232 + 1 P239 -> 10 Plutonium-thorium fuel cells @ 60GJ each
Deuterium fuel cell: 10 Lead plate + 190 Deuterium + 1 Fusion Catalyst -> 10 Deuterium fuel cells @ 80GJ each

Used up Uranium fuel cell reprocessing: 5 Used up Uranium fuel cells -> 5 Lead + 3 U238 + 10% U235 + 40% P239 + 50% Fusion Catalyst
Used up Thorium fuel cell reprocessing: 5 Used up Thorium fuel cells -> 5 Lead + 2 T232 + 1 to 2 U235 + 50% Fusion Catalyst (No more Plutonium)
Used up Deuterium fuel cell reprocessing: 5 Used up Deuterium fuel cells -> 3 to 7 Lead + 5% lithium + 50% Fusion Catalyst (Whoops, I forgot to normalise the lead here)


Why is the update optional and off by default?
We've past the 0.17 stable point, I don't want to break things at this point, and these changes could upset some people.
for 0.18 I plan to remove the option and delete the older configuration.

I was purposely waiting in my current playthrough to start all of the nuclear power setups, knowing you were coming with this. Now, to figure out how it integrates with Realistic Reactors...

One question looking at the Overhaul notes here; what do the Plutonium (Uranium) and Plutonium-Thorium fuels cells turn into in the reactor?

Anyway, my main question here, the mk levels of reactors/heat exchangers/heat pipes/turbines; what does it mean to go from mk1 to mk2 to mk3? The only thing I see in the tool tips is that the operating temperature is higher. For example, to use mk3 heat exchangers, they fire up once the heat reaches 750C as opposed to the mk1 heat exchangers turning on at 500C. And what about connecting mk3 turbines to mk1 heat exchangers? I can generate steam at 500C but the turbines will not consume it until 750C? Can you add a little explanation with these?

[bobingabout]

One question looking at the Overhaul notes here; what do the Plutonium (Uranium) and Plutonium-Thorium fuels cells turn into in the reactor?

Plutonium fuel cell is basically just an upgraded Uranium fuel cell, you get a used up uranium fuel cell back out. and Plutonium-thorium is upgraded Thorium, so gives a used up Thorium back.
when you consider that the main portion of the recipe is U238 for the Plutonium fuel cell, and Thorium is the main portion of the Plutonium-Thorium fuel cell, it makes sense.

Anyway, my main question here, the mk levels of reactors/heat exchangers/heat pipes/turbines; what does it mean to go from mk1 to mk2 to mk3? The only thing I see in the tool tips is that the operating temperature is higher. For example, to use mk3 heat exchangers, they fire up once the heat reaches 750C as opposed to the mk1 heat exchangers turning on at 500C. And what about connecting mk3 turbines to mk1 heat exchangers? I can generate steam at 500C but the turbines will not consume it until 750C? Can you add a little explanation with these?

The different tiers of Heat Exchangers produce different temperatures of steam. They all used to just turn on at 500C, which didn't make much sense when the MK3 was making 765C steam, so I basically changed the heat exchangers to turn on at the temperature of the steam they produce.
Hotter steam contains more energy (The temperature is what the game uses to determine how much energy is in the fluid in the steam engine's default (steam power) mode)
Steam engines (and turbines) are clamped to their maximum temperature setting, so if you use 500C steam in a 500C turbine, it works fine, if you use 500C steam in a 750C turbine, it will only generate two thirds of it's potential (500/750 is 2 thirds. these aren't the actual numbers of steam though), meaning the upgrade of the steam turbines is pointless, but not a waste.
If however you were to use 750C steam in a 500C turbine, the output power is clamped to the maximum temperature of the steam turbine, and 1/3 of the energy is wasted. do not do this.

To note: 1000, 1250 and 1500 are the maximum temperatures of the reactors, which basically means that the higher tier reactor has a bigger heat capacity. Since the MK3 heat exchanger has a minimum working temperature of 765C which is below the MK1 reactor's 1000C, they will work together.

in short: Always match the temperature of steam from heat exchanger (or boiler) to that of the maximum temperature of the steam turbine (or steam engine), and make sure the temperature of the heat energy source is higher than the turn on temperature of the heat exchanger.
Hint, the MK3 heat exchanger doesn't work with the MK1 heat energy sources (burner and oil burning types) as they have a maximum temperature of 750, which is below the 765 that the heat exchanger 3 needs. all other heat producers from bob's mods work with any heat exchanger.

As an example, In my testing game, I run MK3 heat exchangers from Thorium (MK2) reactors.

[RocketManChronicles]

One question looking at the Overhaul notes here; what do the Plutonium (Uranium) and Plutonium-Thorium fuels cells turn into in the reactor?

Plutonium fuel cell is basically just an upgraded Uranium fuel cell, you get a used up uranium fuel cell back out. and Plutonium-thorium is upgraded Thorium, so gives a used up Thorium back.
when you consider that the main portion of the recipe is U238 for the Plutonium fuel cell, and Thorium is the main portion of the Plutonium-Thorium fuel cell, it makes sense.

Makes perfect sense. I was assuming so, but wanted to make sure.

Anyway, my main question here, the mk levels of reactors/heat exchangers/heat pipes/turbines; what does it mean to go from mk1 to mk2 to mk3? The only thing I see in the tool tips is that the operating temperature is higher. For example, to use mk3 heat exchangers, they fire up once the heat reaches 750C as opposed to the mk1 heat exchangers turning on at 500C. And what about connecting mk3 turbines to mk1 heat exchangers? I can generate steam at 500C but the turbines will not consume it until 750C? Can you add a little explanation with these?

The different tiers of Heat Exchangers produce different temperatures of steam. They all used to just turn on at 500C, which didn't make much sense when the MK3 was making 765C steam, so I basically changed the heat exchangers to turn on at the temperature of the steam they produce.
Hotter steam contains more energy (The temperature is what the game uses to determine how much energy is in the fluid in the steam engine's default (steam power) mode)
Steam engines (and turbines) are clamped to their maximum temperature setting, so if you use 500C steam in a 500C turbine, it works fine, if you use 500C steam in a 750C turbine, it will only generate two thirds of it's potential (500/750 is 2 thirds. these aren't the actual numbers of steam though), meaning the upgrade of the steam turbines is pointless, but not a waste.
If however you were to use 750C steam in a 500C turbine, the output power is clamped to the maximum temperature of the steam turbine, and 1/3 of the energy is wasted. do not do this.

To note: 1000, 1250 and 1500 are the maximum temperatures of the reactors, which basically means that the higher tier reactor has a bigger heat capacity. Since the MK3 heat exchanger has a minimum working temperature of 765C which is below the MK1 reactor's 1000C, they will work together.

in short: Always match the temperature of steam from heat exchanger (or boiler) to that of the maximum temperature of the steam turbine (or steam engine), and make sure the temperature of the heat energy source is higher than the turn on temperature of the heat exchanger.
Hint, the MK3 heat exchanger doesn't work with the MK1 heat energy sources (burner and oil burning types) as they have a maximum temperature of 750, which is below the 765 that the heat exchanger 3 needs. all other heat producers from bob's mods work with any heat exchanger.

As an example, In my testing game, I run MK3 heat exchangers from Thorium (MK2) reactors.

I had assumed to use the heat exchangers and turbines together at their levels, and I had done so so far. Looks like I understand this fine. Thank you for the clarification on the reactors though, I was wondering what their maximum operating temperatures were, and saw nothing in tool tips explaining such.

Now, I do like that I will have to run a Uranium fueled reactor to get the materials needed to run a Deuterium reactor. To me, this is better than the previous method.

When using the Realistic Reactors mod, I have to balance the temperature of the reactor with the use of the steam produced and power consumed. If I were to use the mk3 heat exchangers and turbines, the operating window is extremely narrow for running an 'efficient' reactor without it spiraling out of control into a meltdown. I like the challenge, and will report back with pictures once I get all of this up and running over the next couple of weeks.

[evandy]

How does everyone play through the early game? Do you limp along with a minimalist factory and focus on getting through the tech ASAP, or do you keep your factories up to date as things go along?

I find that I tend to “live with” a lot that really needs to be replaced because there is constantly something better about to be unlocked. For example, I am still using stone furnaces and building new arrays of them because it isn’t worth adding steel furnaces while I am still on red belts anyways, and white circuits and chem science are coming real soon now...

[RocketManChronicles]

How does everyone play through the early game? Do you limp along with a minimalist factory and focus on getting through the tech ASAP, or do you keep your factories up to date as things go along?

I find that I tend to “live with” a lot that really needs to be replaced because there is constantly something better about to be unlocked. For example, I am still using stone furnaces and building new arrays of them because it isn’t worth adding steel furnaces while I am still on red belts anyways, and white circuits and chem science are coming real soon now...

I might be a bit different than most as I play with the biters on hardest settings. But.... I tend to upgrade stone furnaces to steel as quickly as I get them. But when it comes to electric furnaces, I build new smelting arrays as I expand, still using the steel furnaces where they were. Once I get far enough along with expanding electric furnace arrays, I let the 'old' steel arrays limp along until their resource feeds dry out.

As for inserters and belts, I upgrade them after I have their production automated. Once I am able to have them producing at a consistent rate, I start upgrading them a little at a time.

Overall, though, my focus is keeping the science pack production lines running at 60spm until I have Chemical Science and maybe even Production Science going. After that, which is usually when my logistic bot population is large enough, I will push science pack production to about 200spm, and try to maintain that throughput. This is because the amount of science needed for research by this time is in the thousands, and a rate of 60 will feel slow. Pushing for more science production, I create all new assembling and processing areas, while keeping the old 60spm production lines, as I know they are still functional, and use the belts of items sent their way.

In my current game (*heavily modded), I am 250 hours in, and my starting base still operates. In fact, the very first science production lines for the first two sciences I built in the second hour of the game are still there, and still fed the iron and copper needed to keep them running. They were upgraded to red belts and inserters as soon as I was able to mass produce them.And then those stayed that way until about hour 180, where I upgraded (just used the upgrade planner on the whole base) them to Bob's green belts, machines, and inserters.

[bobingabout]

Typically, I stick with stone furnaces until I can make electric, and only then do I upgrade.
however... now that you can make heat sources out of steel furnaces, there's less of a need to avoid building them.

[RocketManChronicles]

Typically, I stick with stone furnaces until I can make electric, and only then do I upgrade.
however... now that you can make heat sources out of steel furnaces, there's less of a need to avoid building them.

These add an interesting "curve" to approaching the mid-game. It seems they would be much more fuel efficient than straight up "vanilla" steel furnaces.

[evandy]

Can you use any fuel cell in any mark of reactor? They just get burned up faster in the higher tiers?

[bobingabout]

Can you use any fuel cell in any mark of reactor? They just get burned up faster in the higher tiers?

there's an option for bobrevamp. if the reactor revamp is turned on (and you have bobplates and bobpower with new reactors) then you will only be able to use uranium fuel in a uranium reactor, thorium in a thorium reactor and deuterium in a deuterium reactor.
If there option is turned off (or you lack bobpower's additional reactors) then any fuel works in any reactor.