Give feedback: steam power overhaul

[bobingabout]

This is to Discuss, and make suggestions on what I'm planning for steam power updates for the next major release of my power mod.

So, lets start with what I have now.
Boilers T1 to T4 cost Iron, Steel, Brass+Invar, Tungsten.
Steam engines cost Iron, Steel, Brass+Cobalt Steel, Titanium.
Power values are as follows:

Code: Select all

Power = water power per degree(0.2kW) * fluid per tick * 60 * (Water Temperature - 15) * effectivity
0.2kW * 0.5 * 60 * 150 =  900kW * 1     =  900kW   (SE1 with B1)
0.2kW * 0.6 * 60 * 220 = 1584kW * 1.066 = 1688.5kW (SE2 with B2)
0.2kW * 0.7 * 60 * 290 = 2436kW * 1.133 = 2760kW   (SE3 with B3)
0.2kW * 0.8 * 60 * 360 = 3456kW * 1.2   = 4147.2kW (SE4 with B4)

Effectivity is listed after the first calculation because, Boilers are tuned to double value, so that 1 boiler powers 2 steam engines for every tier.
Boiler efficiencies aren't listed, but they do match the fluid per tick consumption rates.

The plan:
Add T5 that will cost Tungsten Carbide or Copper Tungsten Alloy for the boiler, and Nitinol for the steam engine.
Drop the Efficiency above 100% from the steam engine, making them 100% efficient across the board (Since the steam engine is tuned to that tier of boiler, and higher temperature steam is wasted in a steam engine, there's no incentive given for the higher efficiencies anymore)
I have drawn up 3 plans, but the low end estimates only work if you have efficiencies still included, so, here's the two that work.

The first version simply drops the efficiency, but adds a higher tier

Code: Select all

0.2kW * 0.5 * 60 * 150 =  900kW (SE1 with B1)
0.2kW * 0.6 * 60 * 220 = 1584kW (SE2 with B2)
0.2kW * 0.7 * 60 * 290 = 2436kW (SE3 with B3)
0.2kW * 0.8 * 60 * 360 = 3456kW (SE4 with B4)
0.2kW * 0.9 * 60 * 430 = 4644kW (SE5 with B5)

The second version scales to try and match the new T5 without efficiency to the old T4 after efficiency.

Code: Select all

0.2kW * 0.5 * 60 * 150 =  900kW (SE1 with B1)
0.2kW * 0.6 * 60 * 210 = 1512kW (SE2 with B2)
0.2kW * 0.7 * 60 * 270 = 2268kW (SE3 with B3)
0.2kW * 0.8 * 60 * 330 = 3168kW (SE4 with B4)
0.2kW * 0.9 * 60 * 390 = 4212kW (SE5 with B5)

The 3rd set that I'm not going to List, because I do plan to remove the efficiencies, was to scale the new T5 after efficiency, to the old T4 after efficiency.
Boiler efficiencies again aren't listed, but will continue to match fluid usage per tick, so a new T5 boiler will have 90% efficiency, which isn't quite as much as the old T4, where 80% and 120% gave an overall 96% efficiency.



Now on to Nuclear power!
Unlike the steam power where I haven't changed any of the base game items, I do plan to change nuclear power base game items.
I've not decided on recipes at all for nuclear power, because there's no real tierring logic, and I'll need to rewrite it.
Same as before, what we have now.

Code: Select all

0.2kW * 1.00 * 60 * 485 =  5820kW * 1.0 =  5820kW (ST1)
0.2kW * 1.25 * 60 * 610 =  9150kW * 1.1 = 10065kW (ST2)
0.2kW * 1.50 * 60 * 735 = 13230kW * 1.2 = 15876kW (ST3)

However, although heat exchangers are temperature tuned to steam turbines, they aren't currently tuned to 2 steam turbrines, having 10MW, 15.8MW and 22.8MW. The HE is however tuned to be a division of the output of a nuclear generator, which is 40MW.

First, lets address the steam turbines. Again, dropping efficiency bonus on the turbine, but also dealing with WTF temperatures. Remember that the working value is currently temperature minus starting temperature, Lets make it a nice round 500, by increasing actual temperature to 515.

Code: Select all

0.2kW * 1.00 * 60 * 500 =  6000kW (ST1)
0.2kW * 1.25 * 60 * 625 =  9375kW (ST2)
0.2kW * 1.50 * 60 * 750 = 13500kW (ST3)

This will put HR values of 12MW, 18.75MW and 27MW

Now, what about nuclear power plants?
Well, currently, we have 1 that kicks out 40MW, but, has a 100% adjacency bonus... lets just keep them as a multiple of boiler powers.
So, do we keep it as 4, and increase it to 48MW, or decrease it to 3, and change it to 36MW?
MK 2 would then be 75MW for 4, or 56.25MW for 3.
and MK3 would be 108MW for 4, or 81MW for 3.
Yes, I plan to make a nuclear reactor MK2 and MK3 to pair with the HE of that tier.


So now that I've outlined my basic plans. Opinions?

[ukezi]

nuclear is already powerfull enough, I wouldn't add higher tier reactor. Also you could scale down the turbine to 5 MW each but go up so that 6 MK2, 4 MK3 and 2 MK4 have 40MW. I think the steam engines should be scaled so that the boilers have 50% more fuel intake then the previous tier and 0.1 more efficiency.

[bobingabout]

Also you could scale down the turbine to 5 MW each

It's a fine balance between fluid consumption and fluid temperature that ultimately determines what the power output will be. the 0.2kW capacity and 60 ticks per second are constant that can't be changed (Well, the 0.2kW can be if you mod water, but that changes normal steam power too), so that means you either change the temperature, or you change the fluid consumption of the turbine. If you follow Plan A (and current values) on the steam power side of things, A T6 steam engine would be.... 1.0 fluid per tick, and 500 degrees water. wait a moment, that's what I chose for the steam turbine! Yes, Steam turbine is effectively just steam engine MK6.

to actually get a nice round 5MW at 1 fluid per second would require a temperature of 416.66666666666666666666666666667, or if you want 500 degrees, a fluid consumption of 0.83333333333333333333333333333333 units per tick. Basically, however many kW you want requires you to multiply 2 numbers by 12. (12 is the 0.2 * 60 part), so if 12 is a starting point, 500 is a nice number that gives you 6000, which is why when you try for 5000, you basically can't do it.

So this is why I basically went with the 6MW. I'm open for other sugestions though.

[ukezi]

That is a good reason then I'd go with 6 MW each, 12 MW per HE and 36 MW per reactor nuclear power is already powerful enough. that would give you 12 HE for a reactor with three adjacency. And then tier up in a way that gives nice numbers even with adjacency. Also you should test the throughput of the heat pipe. Would be a shame if you cant get the heat away from the higher tier reactors.

[bobingabout]

That is a good reason then I'd go with 6 MW each, 12 MW per HE and 36 MW per reactor nuclear power is already powerful enough. that would give you 12 HE for a reactor with three adjacency. And then tier up in a way that gives nice numbers even with adjacency. Also you should test the throughput of the heat pipe. Would be a shame if you cant get the heat away from the higher tier reactors.

I was also thinking that HEs/reactors should go up in steps of units of 6MW. which means steam engines in steps of 3MW. the MK2 works fine with 1.2 fluid consumption and 625 degrees to give 9MW, but then with 750 degree water, it requires a fluid consumption 0f 1.3333333 to make 12000. oh well.

[ukezi]

I just put in in wolfram alpha.
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=T ... 0125%7D%5D
maybe that helps at figuring out variants?
1.2@625° for MK2 and 1.25@800° for MK3 gives integer solutions for t
You could also just step up the temperature, 600,800,1000° @1.25 fluid gives 9,12,15MW.

[bobingabout]

I just put in in wolfram alpha.
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=T ... 0125%7D%5D
maybe that helps at figuring out variants?
1.2@625° for MK2 and 1.25@800° for MK3 gives integer solutions for t
You could also just step up the temperature, 600,800,1000° @1.25 fluid gives 9,12,15MW.

long story short, use better temperature steps.

[mrvn]

With 750° water that cuts down the temperature gradient by 2. Or will an mk3 reactor get hotter than 1000°?

[bobingabout]

With 750° water that cuts down the temperature gradient by 2. Or will an mk3 reactor get hotter than 1000°?

For the case of water, that's just numbers of how much energy is in it. A HE will actually heat water above 500 degrees from a 500 degree heat power source.
I'm not sure what I'm going to do with reactors yet, increasing their temperature is an option.


Anyway, looking at some new maths, I'm thinking about doing away with consuming more fluid per tick too, and just scaling everything with temperature of the water. and if I'm doing that, then perhaps a generator consumes 0.5 fluid per tick (or 30 a second) and turbines consume 1 per tick (or 60 per second).
As a result, I can try and temperature match the turbines with higher end generators, so using turbines with boilers, or generators on HE's from nuclear is a thing you could do. A turbine would then be a more expensive generator, that does the job of 2.

Anyway, some values.

Code: Select all

SE1: 0.2kW * ( 165 -15) * 30 =   900kW
SE2: 0.2kW * ( 315 -15) * 30 =  1800kW
SE3: 0.2kW * ( 515 -15) * 30 =  3000kW
SE4: 0.2kW * ( 765 -15) * 30 =  4500kW
SE5: 0.2kW * (1015 -15) * 30 =  6000kW

ST1: 0.2kW * ( 515 -15) * 60 =  6000kW
ST2: 0.2kW * ( 765 -15) * 60 =  9000kW
ST3: 0.2kW * (1015 -15) * 60 = 12000kW

Code: Select all

B1:  E = 0.5, T =  165, P =  1800kW
B2:  E = 0.6, T =  315, P =  3600kW
B3:  E = 0.7, T =  515, P =  6000kW
B4:  E = 0.8, T =  765, P =  9000kW
B5:  E = 0.9, T = 1015, P = 12000kW

HE1: E = 1.0, T =  515, P = 12000kW
HE2: E = 1.0, T =  765, P = 18000kW
HE3: E = 1.0, T = 1015, P = 24000kW

So you could run 2 SE5s, or 1 ST3 off a B5, or 4 SE5s or 2 ST3s off a HE3.
You can also run 3 HE1s, 2 HE2s or 1.5 HE3 off an unboosted reactor, if I change it's power rate to 36MW.

Anyway, that's my line of thinking with this, I know it's a complete rewrite of how they function, but in the end, the values for each generator aren't changing by much, if anything, each step is rounded up for a slight boost instead of losing their efficiency bonus.
to compare current with proposed:

Code: Select all

     Current    Old      New
SE1:  900kW     900kW    900kW
SE2: 1688.5kW  1584kW   1800kW
SE3: 2760kW    2436kW   3000kW
SE4: 4147.2kW  3456kW   4500kW
SE5:           4644kW   6000kW

[ukezi]

I like that. It makes it a lot easier to scale. You also don't have the problem that with leveling up your powerplant suddenly you are missing water. you could also give us the turbines independent of the reactors. I'm not up to date with all the changes you made as I'm playing seablocks. you should fuse the techs for boiler/stream engine and HE/ST as they aren't useful independent of each other.

[gosensgo86]

I also like the changes, but I'm a bit curious as to how you'd rebalance the recipes for the turbines and steam engines. The current cost for turbines is way too cheap to make it worth building the MK3-5 boilers, so I'm sure that would be addressed.

The only other suggestion I'd make would be to add a MK4-5 HE/ST, along with a reactor MK2 that would be powered by a different fuel (Thorium, maybe?), but that would require a whole new production chain, and I understand if you don't want to add that right now.

[bobingabout]

I also like the changes, but I'm a bit curious as to how you'd rebalance the recipes for the turbines and steam engines. The current cost for turbines is way too cheap to make it worth building the MK3-5 boilers, so I'm sure that would be addressed.

As a starting point, since in this plan, a steam turbine MK1 is essentially 2x steam engine MK3s, the absolute minimum cost should be about as much as 2x of it's paired steam engine.
This does mean a complete overhaul of the steam turbine recipes. (Also, since a SE MK3 costs a SE MK2 which costs a SE MK1, should this be accounted for in a ST MK1?)

A similar thing could be said for HEs and boilers, but that is a bit of a different thing, since they have different energy sources.
The short answer is, it will be addressed, but there is no plan as to how yet.

The only other suggestion I'd make would be to add a MK4-5 HE/ST, along with a reactor MK2 that would be powered by a different fuel (Thorium, maybe?), but that would require a whole new production chain, and I understand if you don't want to add that right now.

The original plan on this page said I would make a MK2 and MK3 reactor tuned to the MK2 and MK3 HE (Which are in turn tuned to the MK2 and MK3 ST), however, I reviewed that and decided instead to make the Reactor and the HEs have a power rating as a multiple of a fixed value (I think I went with 6MW), and as a result you would be able to use the new HEs on the MK1 reactor with no issues. with a power rating of 36MW on the reactor, and 12MW, 18MW and 24MW for the HEs, that means that a single unboosted reactor could power 3, 2 or 1.5 of them, or since that last one isn't a whole number, with two reactors side by side and boosted, the pair could power 12, 8 or 6 of them.

This means a MK2 and MK3 reactor is not NEEDED, but does open up for a Thorium reactor as being the MK2 reactor, and as long as it follows the same rules (a multiple of 6MW), then it should work fine for this system. 72MW is actually the lowest value for a perfect round number of HEs for the whole range (6, 4 and 3 of them). Anything less and at least one is a fraction (Like HEs being 1.5)

[gosensgo86]

I also like the changes, but I'm a bit curious as to how you'd rebalance the recipes for the turbines and steam engines. The current cost for turbines is way too cheap to make it worth building the MK3-5 boilers, so I'm sure that would be addressed.

As a starting point, since in this plan, a steam turbine MK1 is essentially 2x steam engine MK3s, the absolute minimum cost should be about as much as 2x of it's paired steam engine.
This does mean a complete overhaul of the steam turbine recipes. (Also, since a SE MK3 costs a SE MK2 which costs a SE MK1, should this be accounted for in a ST MK1?)

A similar thing could be said for HEs and boilers, but that is a bit of a different thing, since they have different energy sources.
The short answer is, it will be addressed, but there is no plan as to how yet.

I think that cost should be taken into account, but I think the steam turbines should cost at least one of its corresponding steam engine. My personal opinion is that Steam Turbines MK1 should cost 1 Steam Engine MK5 plus other things, but I can understand why you wouldn't want to go in that direction.

The only other suggestion I'd make would be to add a MK4-5 HE/ST, along with a reactor MK2 that would be powered by a different fuel (Thorium, maybe?), but that would require a whole new production chain, and I understand if you don't want to add that right now.

The original plan on this page said I would make a MK2 and MK3 reactor tuned to the MK2 and MK3 HE (Which are in turn tuned to the MK2 and MK3 ST), however, I reviewed that and decided instead to make the Reactor and the HEs have a power rating as a multiple of a fixed value (I think I went with 6MW), and as a result you would be able to use the new HEs on the MK1 reactor with no issues. with a power rating of 36MW on the reactor, and 12MW, 18MW and 24MW for the HEs, that means that a single unboosted reactor could power 3, 2 or 1.5 of them, or since that last one isn't a whole number, with two reactors side by side and boosted, the pair could power 12, 8 or 6 of them.

This means a MK2 and MK3 reactor is not NEEDED, but does open up for a Thorium reactor as being the MK2 reactor, and as long as it follows the same rules (a multiple of 6MW), then it should work fine for this system. 72MW is actually the lowest value for a perfect round number of HEs for the whole range (6, 4 and 3 of them). Anything less and at least one is a fraction (Like HEs being 1.5)

I think the balance on that is fine, since you'll probably have boosted reactors by the time you start using MK3 HEs. I only mentioned that as an idea in case you decided to expand the HE/ST to more than MK3, because I feel a MK2 reactor could be needed then, to cut down on the number of reactors.

[ukezi]

the problem is that a SE5 cost all kinds of advanced material. now where you put the reactor in the tech tree is the question. if you give the ST to early, nobody would use the higher tier SE. I think the SE1 with something like SE3 as prerequisite on the tech site and at least 3 times the cost would work. For ST2 I would say ST1 and SE4 as tech requisite. That way you have to have all available and maybe use the SE because they are more efficient resource wise.

[gosensgo86]

But then you end up in a similar situation where people make the higher tier SE only to use them in the ST. It makes more sense to me to have ST1 come sfter SE5, with maybe changing the recipes so they use less advanced materials. That's probably something that would have to be done to account for adding the SE5 anyway. I just don't want to see the higher tier SE become an intermediate product that doesn't get used to generate power.

This is why I couldn't do anything like these mods, I have no sense of how to make things balanced.

[bobingabout]

Okay, I'll answer a few questions right here.

Firstly, what will Turbines cost.
A ST1 will be a newly built entity, it will not cost any SE in order to build it. It will however cost a similar range of materials as the SE3 (okay, I guess maybe it could cost an SE2, because an SE3 costs that), in larger quantities.
A ST2 will cost an ST1 plus more materials, on par with what an SE4 costs.

The HE range will also cost a similar range of materials as the Boiler, HE1 costing similar to B3.

Tech costs.
BSE1 is free, BSE2 costs science pack 1, and so on, so BSE5 costs Production science pack.

Nuclear power will remain where it is costing Science pack 3, even though it's counterpart BSE3 only costs Science pack 2, and the top tier HSST3 costing Production and High tech.

[gosensgo86]

But then why would anyone build SE4 and SE5 when they can get Turbines instead for the same cost or slightly cheaper?

[Jackalope_Gaming]

Considering one can get the same power output with current tech instead of next tier tech by simply doubling (or more) the current items, it seems most reasonable to say that turbines must cost at least some higher tech components than their steam engine counterparts because they save space like moving up a tier, just to a lesser degree since it's only the consumer that's getting the space savings. Then the extra cost is actually meaningful compared to if it cost the same sort of resources but only more of them.

That's also mirrored in its own way on the fuel consumers / heat producers. With low tech one can still increase their production such as using plain coal, but going with higher tech means more energy-dense fuels and/or more efficient fuels.

Scaling purely off water temperature looks to be the most reasonable way of elegantly working steam power, that's for sure. Leads to much simpler math and design updating. I like where this is going.

[bobingabout]

But then why would anyone build SE4 and SE5 when they can get Turbines instead for the same cost or slightly cheaper?

they're not cheaper, ST2 will be more expensive than SE4, but cost similar ingredients, so you could build 2x SE5 or ST3 that costs a bit more.

Considering one can get the same power output with current tech instead of next tier tech by simply doubling (or more) the current items, it seems most reasonable to say that turbines must cost at least some higher tech components than their steam engine counterparts because they save space like moving up a tier, just to a lesser degree since it's only the consumer that's getting the space savings. Then the extra cost is actually meaningful compared to if it cost the same sort of resources but only more of them.

I'll consider it, though since the SE5 will already cost the most advanced tier of materials, I'm not sure what else I can put on top for ST3.

Scaling purely off water temperature looks to be the most reasonable way of elegantly working steam power, that's for sure. Leads to much simpler math and design updating. I like where this is going.

glad you approve.

[Light]

I'll just reflect my statement from the other thread in that I don't feel nuclear should be buffed in any way, but to clarify that a bit further I'm hoping no Mk2 reactor is on the table at this point.

One reason being that there's a great mod that replaces vanilla reactors named Realistic Reactors which requires constant cooling to prevent overheating (Thus eating fuel at all times). Vanilla reactors just sit at 1000°C and stop burning fuel, but doing so with the reactor mod results in the reactor dying. While the overheating control means that Mk3 HE's are difficult to use, it does work if done right. If the temperature numbers are raised too high for Mk3 HE's or a Mk2 reactor is involved then this mod can't be used alongside yours anymore, which would be a shame for sure.

I also imagine the Mk5 boilers would consume more fuel than the reactor for the same MW production, which would make nuclear somewhat more attractive for 'long term power' compared to steam unless you have a lot to burn. But I don't see steam Mk5's putting nuclear to shame even with reactors left as they are. The turbine recipes will certainly need tweaking, but the rest of nuclear I feel should be left alone since it's OP enough as it is.

With regards to the steam engines I also like the direction it's going. Outposts will be easier to power in the late game if there's enough combustible material to be spared for it, which I'd rather use instead of the typical 200+ large pole from the reactor to the outpost hookup we all generally do. It's cooler to have self-powered outposts just in case shit hits the fan back home, as it just keeps going.