Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

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Mudified
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Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by Mudified »

.
.
First, a disclaimer : Despite a colorfull language, I’m not angry. Im in love with my game, with my base, with my factory. I'm just offering my unsolicited opinion.

I mean no disrespect to anyone with a different point of view.




But screw universally acknowledged strategies. Like main busses. This also applies to other strategy-oriented games, but is specially true with Factorio.



Learning and figuring out stuff feels awesome.

Building a beginner mess is awesome.

Figuring out why it sucks is awesome.

Fixing it feels beyond awesome.

Building a new, even better base is so super satisfying.



If I’m not mistaking, I began in version 0.14. Before the game was sent to Steam. Just before they removed the Alien science packs. OMW to send my 3rd or 4th reocket. (My first in 1.0)

I remember having some issues figuring out an optimal way to inject/extract stuff from smelters and factories. How to use 1st tier electric poles and underground belts to manage to have a straight line of factories or smelters without any space between them. Optimising. Was fun. Was challenging.


I did do some reading. Here and there. Occasionally.

Figuring out train signals was not…. well… natural… for me.

I also had trouble (maybe I was tired that day) optimising my uranium refining process. I actually took a blueprint from someone online… (Oh ! The shame !)

I mean... I have no issue with people sharing strategies to optimise their stuff… or people using mods and all. It’s really none of my business.

But I do get a little offended whtn I see forum posts or videos where people imply that “building a main bus” is an essential part of your base building. Man, do it if you want... but that’s not essential !!!!!!

I once read a forum post from a guy complaining the tutorial was too light. “It did not even contain a guide to start your main bus !!!” What ? That’s not a game mecanic, IT’S AN ADVANCED STRATEGY !



My bases are beautifull. (well, actually, they are a fkn mess… which is beautifull in its way...)

I dedicate 1 patch of ore per “goal” (like, there's an patch of Iron 100% dedicated to building Military science packs.

I have many remote assembly lines.

I have WAY-TOO-MANY trains. Usually with 1 (somtimes 2) waggons. Taking stuff in 1 place, bringing it some other place.

Spreading as much as possible is my main strategy. To allow expension. Like turret ammoe is built in 1 place… and a train delivers them to 12+ different map locations, keeping remote ammo storage full at all time. I build assembly lines “for science packs” (large assembly lines), but have smaller ones for “base maintenances” (replacement walls, turrets… repair packs) and some for personally uses. Things go right and left and up and down. Things come, get mixed with something else, then are sent elsewhere for assembly... But it works. No one else could work with my base. But I know what is where. And it works. It’s beautifull. I love it. I want more.

And I still figure out ways to optimise parts here and there.

I feel special when look at my base. I feel smart. I want to share it. Show other people how it's done (Even though I perfectly know that thousands of other did the same and probably feel the same... and that my setup is relativelly absolutly shitty.)

But I can’t help and feel like many people are missing the point when they use a strategy that is not “theirs”. What is left for them ?

It’s like saying “I’m going to play Diablo 2… and start with a hacked Lv99 fully-geared character”. What’s the point ? The journey is the reward, here… no ?

‘nyway.

Sorry to anyone I offended.

Long live Factorio.

Let’s have a respectfull conversation on the subject.

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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by Aru »

I've never once used the "main bus" thing, it conflicts with my style. I use larger optimized blueprints designed in advance, and deliver whatever raw-ish resources are needed directly to where I know they'll be needed. Outside of the designs, I restrict myself to shuffle only basic bulk materials like plates, steel, green and red circuits, petroleum and lubricant at distance. Anything else is made wherever it is needed, because redundant assemblers to make the same intermediates in different places, while some might be idle some of the time, I think is actually a very sane expense most of the time. The belts and belt complexity of the bus would in many situations cost more than the assemblers anyway. Using encapsulated blueprint designs like this results in greater simplicity in practice than a main bus. The advantage of the bus is flexibility, but if you already know what you want, how much, and where, the slight flexibility advantage is not nearly worthwhile for me.

Everyone has their own play style. People who rely heavily on unaltered designs from others probably have their reasons. Maybe they want to rush into learning large scale things before focusing on little designs, or maybe they don't have enough time and would prefer to focus on certain aspects of the game. Maybe they want the bus because they prefer small, simple designs. Personally, I will gladly take inspiration from others' designs in my own, but I only use mine.

Anyone who says a "main bus" is absolutely necessary to play efficiently are objectively wrong. If you don't enjoy a play style, cut it out, otherwise it's really nobody's fault but the player's.
Last edited by Aru on Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by Mudified »

I used to only transport "raw" resources by train. But things just naturaly evolved.

Like.... my main Oil processing (for blue sc.packs and and other personnal use (small quantity of enginges, blue chips, laser turrets...)) is EAst of my base.
My Red Chips assembly line is south.


So I bring sulfur from oil processing, in rather-small quantitites* to the red-chip assembly line. I take the other stock of copper/iron there, withthe sulfur, to make batteries and hum...something else, that I then bring back by train to a train stop I call "Main base"... which is a stop Imanually go to to refill stocks in my inventory...........

(*I use a lot that function to limit the capacity of chests and waggons storage capacity, to avoid waste. Something that I transport for personnal use is usually enough to have 100-200.... so I won't fill a waggon with 2500...)




Er..... Like I said...... it's my design and it works for me... :D I'm just saying that with time, I got to begin doing trains for advanved components or even "final" products.



As I expenpand, I always start by bringing railroad and electricity. So then, it's easy to add train stops everywhere/anywhere...

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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by jodokus31 »

a main bus is actually not that flexible.
try bob's and angel's with main bus.... :) (ok might be possible, but at big scale?)

The most flexible approach i discovered so far is a distributed train system f.e. with city blocks. LTN helps with dynamic schedules.

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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by valneq »

That's a lot of words to say that the main bus is overrated. And I agree, the main bus is overrated.

It is, nonetheless, the key strategy that helped me launch my first rocket. Without it I was totally lost in a big spaghetti mess that was not flexible enough to grow. But now that I have seen a base capable of launching rockets, I am able to plan ahead and build bases without the main bus.

If a newcomer asks about or seeks out strategies to launch rockets, there is nothing wrong with telling them about the main bus. They will miss out on the fun of figuring out whrehe their own (first) designs have flaws.

But then again, if someone wants to consult a detailed walkthrough/strategy guide for a game, or other people for that matter, it's their decision.

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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by Koub »

Quite the wall of text to state that main busses are overrated, indeed.

You're far from being the first one advocating against the main bus. One example of thread I could merge yours into : viewtopic.php?f=5&t=37024.
As I'm lazy, I'll reuse an old post of mine :
Koub wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:06 pm
There are as many ways to play Factorio as there are people. There are even people who have several ways to play depending on the mood.
Main busses have their uses, and their limits.
A main bus is usually an improvement over spaghetti
Specialized mini-factories that produce as much as possible on site are an improvement over main bus past a certain factory size.
and so on.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by eradicator »

Mudified wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:21 pm
IT’S AN ADVANCED STRATEGY !
Hm... i would call it more like an intermediate strategy. It's a tool to get up a pre-mega-scale factory relatively easy while learning how basic game mechanics work. All without the need for excessive pre-planning of the whole base. It's a tool which does a job. If you want to use a different tool then by all means do so.

I'm not really that well into the mega-factory buisiness, but has anyone actually ever built a main-bus based megafactory? Say 2k+? I haven't seen one at least. The few big ones i've taken a look at all use some kind of encapsulated production - like for example the city blocks paradigm.
Mudified wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:21 pm
It’s like saying “I’m going to play Diablo 2… and start with a hacked Lv99 fully-geared character”. What’s the point ? The journey is the reward, here… no ?
Maybe you like the journey, maybe other people like what comes at the end of the leveleling-up journey. That is exactly "everyone has his own playstyle" as you say yourself. Diablo doesn't end at level 99 and Factorio doesn't end at Rocket 1. There's no rule that says you have to use the same tool for all eternity.

Do you realize that many mega-factory showcases (on YT etc) are actually built in sandbox mode? Because designing one is to many people more rewarding that to bother grinding up all the resources to build it in "survival mode".
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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by MassiveDynamic »

+1

It’s a GAME. Play it. Waste time. Chill. Escape reality. Have fun.

Build, create, explore, solve problems, create problems, pollute, go green, do whatever you want. Make it messy, or neat, or beautiful.

You be you dude.

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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by Mudified »

Koub wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:32 pm

You're far from being the first one advocating against the main bus.
Well... "advocate against" is a little strong. lol. I'm just saying that I think it's kind of sad that some people seem to think it's the only way to go.

eradicator wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:08 pm
Mudified wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:21 pm
IT’S AN ADVANCED STRATEGY !
It's a tool to get up a pre-mega-scale factory relatively easy while learning how basic game mechanics work. All without the need for excessive pre-planning of the whole base. It's a tool which does a job.
By "advanced strategy", I just meant that it's not a strategy that a beginnner (or even a mid-tier player) would just come up with. it's a whole-base-building-strategy. From my point of view, it's quite advanced. We're not talking about "Best way to position your inserters in a basic smelters setup" and such...
But most of all, in the contexte of my original sentence : it's not a game mecanic and has no place in a tutorial... or in a beginner guide(that 2nd part is open for discussion, but is my point of view)

eradicator wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:08 pm
Maybe you like the journey, maybe other people like what comes at the end of the leveleling-up journey. That is exactly "everyone has his own playstyle" as you say yourself. Diablo doesn't end at level 99 and Factorio doesn't end at Rocket 1. There's no rule that says you have to use the same tool for all eternity.

Do you realize that many mega-factory showcases (on YT etc) are actually built in sandbox mode? Because designing one is to many people more rewarding that to bother grinding up all the resources to build it in "survival mode".


No, yeah, I know. I had a friend who spent so much time telling me how he had mad fun at D2. Him and his brother would power-level each others to Lv99 in 1 evening and so on... Good for 'em. I never saw the point though. They were power-leveling through the fun part, direct to the boring one. I loved D2. I never went over Lv50. It started getting tedious and boring by Lv40-45 for me. But I got many caracters to that level. Which is why I ofently take D2 as an exemple for my very convoluted argument. Which is basically (in a very ironic but self-aware way) that many people play games for many reasons and in many different ways. But my choices of games, my reasons and my ways of playing are definetly much better than the rest. :-P

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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by Impatient »

I really want to build a "one providing train station per item type" base now. no main bus, just a mess of rail tracks.

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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by Koub »

Impatient wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:43 am
I really want to build a "one providing train station per item type" base now. no main bus, just a mess of rail tracks.
Build a main bus of trains :mrgreen:
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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by 5thHorseman »

The nicest things about a main bus are that it's easy to explain, easy to understand, and easy to see when there are problems.

These are three HUGE bonuses for new players. If you're not lost you don't search for help. If you are lost, a bus is very likely the absolute best way to force organization on you.

I personally never use a main bus in "real" games. My starter factory will have sort of a mini-bus, as will my mall, but generally my main factory uses trains to deliver supplies directly to locations that make specific things, depending on my main strategy.
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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by eradicator »

Koub wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:39 am
Build a main bus of trains :mrgreen:
But that's someone elses strategy! Trick question: Is it still a "Bus" if it's made of Trains? :p
Mudified wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:12 am
By "advanced strategy", I just meant that it's not a strategy that a beginnner (or even a mid-tier player) would just come up with. it's a whole-base-building-strategy. From my point of view, it's quite advanced. We're not talking about "Best way to position your inserters in a basic smelters setup" and such...
Well, maybe my perspective is a bit different. After all i've been in an around factorio for a number of hours that's steadily approaching 5 digits. From my POV the main belt is the most basic strategy. I call it intermediate because beginning player don't have a strategy at all (and that's fine) - they just build spaghetti (and be careful there: in no way am i saying that all spaghetti players are beginners). So to me any advanced strategy should be well suited for megabasing, not just "yea you might be able do use that too".
Mudified wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:12 am
But most of all, in the contexte of my original sentence : it's not a game mecanic and has no place in a tutorial... or in a beginner guide(that 2nd part is open for discussion, but is my point of view)
Can't really agree on the "tutorials shouldn't teach strategy" argument. Sure not the first tutorial. New players should be given room to explore. But imho when someone starts looking for guides on the internet they're not really a naive beginner anymore.
eradicator wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:08 pm
I loved D2. I never went over Lv50.
Spent countless hours on that too. Would never say i "loved" it in hindsight. The whole game mechanic is focused around grinding regardless of level. But gosh, L50, blasphemy! Can't even do Hell Mephisto runs with that! Which was what i probably did most: farm better magic-find equipment so i can farm better magic-find equipment faster! :mrgreen:.
Mudified wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:12 am
But my choices of games, my reasons and my ways of playing are definetly much better than the rest. :-P
'tis on the internet! 't must be true :twisted:
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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by Kyralessa »

Koub wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:39 am
Impatient wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:43 am
I really want to build a "one providing train station per item type" base now. no main bus, just a mess of rail tracks.
Build a main bus of trains :mrgreen:
A train bus?

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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by Mudified »

eradicator wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:08 pm
Mudified wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:12 am
I loved D2. I never went over Lv50.
Spent countless hours on that too. Would never say i "loved" it in hindsight. The whole game mechanic is focused around grinding regardless of level. But gosh, L50, blasphemy! Can't even do Hell Mephisto runs with that! Which was what i probably did most: farm better magic-find equipment so i can farm better magic-find equipment faster! :mrgreen:.
Well... I'm like, 20 years older now. Things might be diffrent.
But I remember that :
- Past a certain point, you level up slower
- Past a certain point, you start upgrading your skills instead of unlocking new ones.

So to me, from that point, the game stoped giving me what I want : a progression with new candies.
Last edited by Mudified on Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by Koub »

Kyralessa wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:19 am
Koub wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:39 am
Impatient wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:43 am
I really want to build a "one providing train station per item type" base now. no main bus, just a mess of rail tracks.
Build a main bus of trains :mrgreen:
A train bus?
A bus made of trains instead of belts. Not just one mega train, but one train track replacing one belt, and several train tracks in parallel.
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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by DingoPD »

No such thing as too many trains, if you not dodging a train every 10-15 seconds, you don't have enough of them :)

But seriously, the base i liked the most so far is one where i created a grid of double train tracks and used the squares of space to make single type of item in large quantity, and then transport it all with trains, it ended taking up about 20 square kilometers, all beautiful concrete :), with nearly 800 trains connecting everything. I finally had to give up on it, because my toaster couldn't handle it anymore. Sadly only picture that survived is this map screenshot of copper wire production line from an old post.
Efficiency is just highly developed form of laziness.

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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by Qon »

I'm also making a grid :)
Rail + Death world. With Snappers (Armoured Biters mod). And I'm kind of stuck because evolution is maxed out. So far have only used Ice Ore as my water source. My Ice is running out. And I'm not using solar panels or lasers so far. My coal has already been depleted enough that I need solid fuel to get by, even with less than 20 MW of power used currently. I'm removing radars, roboports and even lamps to stay floating at the moment with Eff1 modules everywhere. I'm still researching the first blue science techs, really slowly with 2 chem science assemblers. But I haven't really been using my grid properly. I was too cramped to really route any material to my base so I have been crawling along in spaghetti for a while, so I have been doing a lot of manual transportation of things.

Recently got rid of all the burner furnaces in the base and taking the steps to convert these 3x3 chunks cells into higher speed production units of high volume materials. The question is, how do I expand now that behemoth snappers are out there? Flamethrower turrets, gun turrets (red ammo) and stone walls with several layers requires a huge amount of resources and can barely hold them. Works, but only with a lot of them at once. So not really practical to walk around with. I'm not turret creeping offensivly, I'm sniping nests with rocket launcher and run back to defeses when the retailation comes. But explosive mines work if you use a lot of them and are easier to move around.

Edit: And I also dislike the main bus. Because it's bad and boring. But I guess it's fine if you want to use it as a new player. I did it once too.
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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by Impatient »

DingoPD wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:49 pm
No such thing as too many trains, if you not dodging a train every 10-15 seconds, you don't have enough of them :)

But seriously, the base i liked the most so far is one where i created a grid of double train tracks and used the squares of space to make single type of item in large quantity, and then transport it all with trains, it ended taking up about 20 square kilometers, all beautiful concrete :), with nearly 800 trains connecting everything. I finally had to give up on it, because my toaster couldn't handle it anymore. Sadly only picture that survived is this map screenshot of copper wire production line from an old post.
Very nice. The layout concept you used there is called "city blocks".

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Re: Rant about universal strategies (main busses)

Post by Impatient »

Kyralessa wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:19 am
Koub wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:39 am
Impatient wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:43 am
I really want to build a "one providing train station per item type" base now. no main bus, just a mess of rail tracks.
Build a main bus of trains :mrgreen:
A train bus?
This game definitely needs more bicycles. ;)

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