Minor tech tree suggestions

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husnikadam
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Minor tech tree suggestions

Post by husnikadam » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:00 am

Hi,
I've been playing latest experimental releases quite a lot (like 5 scenarios from scratch to rocket launch) and I've noticed few things that confused and disappointed me.
1) Firstly I've noticed, that (some/all) advanced techs, f.e. mining productivity, requires more advanced science packs, which is alright, but those more advanced packs are not shown as predecessors of the tech, as it's done with regular techs like f.e. Processors tech. To give an specific example, there is a mining productivity upgrade, which requires yellow pack, but its only predecessor is previous mining productivity. Is there any reason, why is it done this way?
2) secondly I've found some techs, which require military pack, when they shouldn't IMO, and when they could require black packs, but they don't. My example is portable fuse reactor. I've been playing a scenario without biters and I was really surprised, that portable fuse reactor requires military packs while it can be used in armor just to power up exoskeletons and portable roboports. And on the other hand, I've found a tech, Laser, which requires just green and red packs, but it unlocks nothing, only next techs, which all require black packs. And the Laser tech description says sth like "unlocks a way to use and concentrate light to cause damage", which is pretty military description.

I didn't look trough the whole tech tree (I can do that if you want more suggestions or examples), but I think you get the idea, don't you? What are your opinions? Thanks for suggestions and feedback.

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Re: Minor tech tree suggestions

Post by jodokus31 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:44 am

Regarding point 1)
It's a certain philosophy, that everything that require science pack X, should be dependent on science pack X research or a research, that is dependent.
I'm not sure, if vanilla base game claims to do it consistently and complete, but there are modpacks out there, where those dependencies are not nearly as complete and IMO not necessary, because of the implicit dependency.

Regarding point 2)
I think, its a matter of taste. Adding mil tech to Laser would increase the total amount to get to laser turrets. Removing mil tech from fusion reactor removes another reason for setting up mil tech. Balancing the tech tree is not an easy task and there is no right or wrong IMO

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Re: Minor tech tree suggestions

Post by husnikadam » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:47 am

1) it's not necessary, but it kind of irritates me :D
2a) IMO laser is so endgame, that I would push it further just a little bit by this small change, it would at least improve flamethrower towers a little bit.
2b) I disagree, that it would decrease use of mil packs. When you have bitters on, you must have black packs. While they're off, you're not supposed to use mil packs at all, right? Or is it wanted in the very end game without biters to have all pack lines set up, including mil packs, just because of principle of having everything?

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Re: Minor tech tree suggestions

Post by Deadlock989 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:06 pm

1. I understand the game developers as taking the view that busy tech tree graphs in the technology view are a bad thing. There are cases where it is logical that tech Z should require tech Y as a prerequisite, but adding it would screw the tech tree visualisation up, and if that is important it means you have to reorganise other parts of the tree to prevent it - rinse and repeat. It's a tedious process. I automated it, but it still needs manual intervention. If you want a different philosophy, mods are probably your best recourse.

2. Eh. You're using an offshoot of military science to receive this text now. I'm not saying that's a good thing or it had to be that way, it's just a fact.

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Re: Minor tech tree suggestions

Post by jodokus31 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:42 pm

husnikadam wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:47 am
...
2a) IMO laser is so endgame, that I would push it further just a little bit by this small change, it would at least improve flamethrower towers a little bit.
2b) I disagree, that it would decrease use of mil packs. When you have bitters on, you must have black packs. While they're off, you're not supposed to use mil packs at all, right? Or is it wanted in the very end game without biters to have all pack lines set up, including mil packs, just because of principle of having everything?
2a) Laser's got a nerv recently. I don't know, if it would make sense here to push it a bit further.
2b) You don't need to setup black science with the same throughput, if you just want fusion reactor tech and some minor other techs. Having to setup black science out of principle is surely not the case here. You can even handcraft enough. I'm ok with fusion reactor tech to use black science

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Re: Minor tech tree suggestions

Post by husnikadam » Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:55 pm

Okay, I guess I can see it from your point of view, I just wondered what the community thinks about it. It's very minor, nothing to bother about, thanks for feedback

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Re: Minor tech tree suggestions

Post by BlueTemplar » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:35 pm

Fusion Reactor requiring MilSci was an issue raised multiple times before...
I do understand that it feels like it shouldn't require MilSci, but in the games where you do have biters, researching it provides a very powerful military boost !

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Re: Minor tech tree suggestions

Post by jodokus31 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:05 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:35 pm
Fusion Reactor requiring MilSci was an issue raised multiple times before...
I do understand that it feels like it shouldn't require MilSci, but in the games where you do have biters, researching it provides a very powerful military boost !
Yes. I think the game should be balanced for playing default settings with biters. That the fusion reactor is very useful for peaceful games, too, is another aspect. But i also think, that rocket research should use military science like in 0.16 and the rocket should need a satellite. But yeah, opinions...

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Re: Minor tech tree suggestions

Post by Ranger_Aurelien » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:55 pm

jodokus31 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:42 pm
2a) Laser's got a nerv recently.
Laser base damage was decreased, but it is now affected by upgrades so its end game damage is actually boosted.

0.17.59

https://wiki.factorio.com/Version_history/0.17.0
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Re: Minor tech tree suggestions

Post by jodokus31 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:35 pm

Ranger_Aurelien wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:55 pm
jodokus31 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:42 pm
2a) Laser's got a nerv recently.
Laser base damage was decreased, but it is now affected by upgrades so its end game damage is actually boosted.

0.17.59

https://wiki.factorio.com/Version_history/0.17.0
Thanks for the info
I meant base shooting speed of Laser and blue science requirement (since 0.17.60).
Didn't quite realize that end game damage got boosted.

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Re: Minor tech tree suggestions

Post by jamiechi1 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:18 am

I think the game should allow people to play without Biters enabled, and without using military.
-- Things that should be moved to Military
turrets
laser
-- Things that should be removed from Military
gates
cliff-explosives
flammibles
fusion-reactor-equipment
exoskeleton-equipment
All armor
Here is some code to do that. It also nerfs armor a bit and moves automobilism to military.
My data-final-fixes.lua:

Code: Select all


-- Move to Military

data.raw.technology["automobilism"].prerequisites = 
{
  "military", 
  "logistics-2", 
  "engine"
}

data.raw.technology["turrets"].prerequisites = 
{
  "military" 
}

data.raw.technology["laser"].prerequisites = 
{
  "military" 
}


-- Remove from Military

data.raw.technology["gates"].prerequisites = 
{
  "stone-walls"
}


-- need this for cliff explosives
data.raw.technology["cliff-explosives"].prerequisites = 
{
  --"military",
  "explosives"
}
-- fix cliff explosives recipe
data.raw.recipe["cliff-explosives"].ingredients =
{
  {"explosives", 10},
  --{"grenade", 1},   -- remove military
  {"empty-barrel", 1}
}
data.raw.capsule["cliff-explosives"].stack_size = 200




data.raw.technology["flammables"].prerequisites = 
{
  "oil-processing",
  -- "military-science-pack",
}


-- Easier Armor

data.raw.technology["fusion-reactor-equipment"].unit.ingredients = 
{
  {"automation-science-pack", 1},
  {"logistic-science-pack", 1},
  {"chemical-science-pack", 1},
  --{"utility-science-pack", 1},
}

data.raw.technology["fusion-reactor-equipment"].prerequisites = 
{
  "chemical-science-pack",
  "power-armor"
}

data.raw.technology["exoskeleton-equipment"].unit.ingredients = 
{
  {"automation-science-pack", 1}, 
  {"logistic-science-pack", 1},
  {"chemical-science-pack", 1}
}

data.raw.technology["exoskeleton-equipment"].prerequisites = 
{
  "advanced-electronics-2", 
  "engine",
  "solar-panel-equipment"
}

data.raw.technology["personal-roboport-mk2-equipment"].unit.ingredients = 
{
  {"automation-science-pack", 1}, 
  {"logistic-science-pack", 1},
  {"chemical-science-pack", 1}
}

data.raw.technology["personal-roboport-mk2-equipment"].prerequisites = 
{ 
  "personal-roboport-equipment"
}





data.raw.technology["heavy-armor"].unit.ingredients = 
{
  {"automation-science-pack", 1},
}

data.raw.technology["heavy-armor"].prerequisites =
{
  "steel-processing"
}


data.raw.technology["modular-armor"].unit.ingredients = 
{
  {"automation-science-pack", 1},
  {"logistic-science-pack", 1},
}

data.raw.technology["modular-armor"].prerequisites =
{
  "heavy-armor",
  "advanced-electronics"
}


data.raw.technology["power-armor"].unit.ingredients = 
{
  {"automation-science-pack", 1},
  {"logistic-science-pack", 1},
  {"chemical-science-pack", 1},
}

data.raw.technology["power-armor"].prerequisites =
{
  "modular-armor",
  "electric-engine",
  "advanced-electronics-2"
}


data.raw.technology["power-armor-mk2"].unit.ingredients = 
{
  {"automation-science-pack", 1},
  {"logistic-science-pack", 1},
  {"chemical-science-pack", 1},
  --{"utility-science-pack", 1},
}

data.raw.technology["power-armor-mk2"].prerequisites = 
{
  "power-armor",
  "speed-module-2",
  "effectivity-module-2"
}


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Re: Minor tech tree suggestions

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:51 pm

Gun turrets are an early Red Science tech. Moving them to a "tier 2.5" science like Military would break game balance !

And why Automobilism into military ? It's an option for early oil...

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