[0.17.66] Is death world marathon hard enough? (green-build)

[freeafrica]

Hey,

so I'm fairly new to the game (and I love it, thanks for creating it). I've done the campaign and instantly started freeplays on "death world marathon" difficulty, 'cause I love challanges. I had two freeplays which I've restarted 'cause I've understood global evolution (and I've realized I've messed up that stat in those games).

However on my third try, I've focused on a green-build and the game was super-easy w/ the above tactics:
* slow production (next to a forest) on start to avoid neighbour attacks
* rush energy modules to reduce pollution (80% energy reduction for ALL miners and ALL assemblers, this might be the biggest pollution reducer)
* solarized power, so boilers can be removed (except one for "Advanced oil processing")
* electric smelting so energy modules can be inserted (and reduce that pollution as well)
* production modules only for research (later speed beacons for research only as well, since it creates no pollution)
* rush Assemblers 3 to minimize pollution more
* laser defense to spare resources
* nuclear tech for clean steam production (last boiler removed)

Other than always watching my pollution output and try to minimize it, I've also focused on distributing pollution to make use of the tile-reduction. Because of these, there was also not much aggression from the biters.

Was I lucky somehow? 'Cause I have a feeling either the energy modules are reducing too much of pollution or the "death world marathon" scenario parameters should be tuned. What do u think?

[DaveMcW]

Yes, green build is the solution to death world marathon.

Ideas to increase the challenge:
- Re-roll until you start in a desert
- Combine it with Raining Bullets achievement
- Combine it with Steam All the Way achievement
- Don't build efficiency modules

[mmmPI]

Are you usually like very good at games ? or somewhat incredibly patient or super relaxed when facing difficulty even enjoying it ? because that would explain why one would consider a pleasure/easy task what other would see as nightmare/hard challenge .

What you list are all the techniques that are supposed to be used for the marathon deathworld, minimize pollution, control evolution, produce slowly maybe but steadily and green.

It's quite a few of them that i think the average player ( like me ) discover after several playthrough.

Starting with the hardest difficulty hightlighted the need for using them all very fast since you can't succeed if you mess up evolution, it's not going to be slow, it's game over if you got camped at spawn point, and if you realize after 30 50 100 hours , it may mean several weeks / month for many players, even more so if you have made an habit of relying on massive quick polluting production you will find it harder to get punished for those and need to re-adapt.

There is this suggestion pending : new "complex" difficulty to give the base game some more extreme level of difficulties.

Maybe you had a lucky map where you were protected with water, or lake or cliffs creating choke points easier to defend and many trees to absorb pollution, but if you managed this after only a few games, you may not find it too much of an extra challenge to start in a desert. Edit: If you further take away effiency modules that's another topic !

In case, i would advise you to try out some mods, there is a lot of thoughts and time spent on them, to increase difficulty, or make more complex/difficult the parts of the game that you feel like could be tweaked to suit you better.

Something like https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Rampant has nothing to do with changing receipe, but would drastically improved the difficulty of marathon deathworld, or maybe just 1 or 2 playthrough until you come up with a further refined strategy but there are many !

[quyxkh]

Was I lucky somehow?

Nope. That's how you keep biters from triggering on you, you play it like it's Plague Inc and you're the plague.

[Koub]

Related discussion : viewtopic.php?f=16&t=73613

[Ghoulish]

Green is the future, for deathworlds and us all.

Changing the starting size is a way to add more challenge, very small sized starting areas bring the bugs so much sooner. Dave's point about the desert might not be well known - especially if you're new - add it to the games loading tips! The pollution spreads faster than the plague from any apocalypse movie. Desert deathworld, smallest starting area. I'll pass myself, have at it!

Also the default deathworld setting does not give you either the largest frequency or base sizes for bugs. I would of thought it would, that's what deathworld implies to me? You can tweak other settings to make it more interesting, like lower base spawn frequency or increase the group size for bugs, having 50 bugs turn up on your doorstep early on, somewhat angry at all this nasty pollution? I'll pass, again.

The default setting for deathworld could be more well, deathworldy! Just the same for the rail world setting, which somehow requires more rso-esq patch spread-out-ness. Perhaps all the default generation settings could get another once over?

Final thought, back in 0.14 or 0.15, before the world generation redesign, deathworld meant deathworld. You could have a total sea of red surrounding your starting area, that level of masochism should be readded. I recall watching steeljo, bentham et al way back when on such a map with bobs. Should be readded / cater to those who would.

[jodokus31]

The difficulty in early game depends highly on how much trees, green tiles, you have and how much pollution reaches the bases. (@OP: Would you mind to post your map exchange string or seed).
The evo from time settings should ensure, that you cannot do it too slowly to get ahead of the biters, so you have to know what you do. This setting was reduces from 200 to 150 since 0.17.60. Maybe too much?

Later mid/end game it surely gets a lot easier to go full green. Effiency modules might be a bit OP for this? Attacks scale with pollution.
Solar is a long time investment, which is alot more expensive in marathon and you need the space for it. On the other hand you don't need so much power, if you go green. Its probably better to use them

[BlueTemplar]

Note that DeathWorld Marathon has recently been rebalanced to be easier than DeathWorld + Marathon (probably due to the above thread ?)

Maybe it needs a new, less misleading, name?

[freeafrica]

Thanks for all the reply guys, I'll try to be as detailed as possible.

First of all, this is my map exchange string.

There were multiple suggestions how to make the game more diffcult for myself, however I actually like to use what the game offers me and defeat with that toolset.

For example, on a desert start, I would look around for the nearest green patch to move over, on first chance. About avoid using solar, I actually would like to use it because its a nice part of the game building huge-solar-farms. Also I feel that the vanilla version should offer a preset difficulty setting on its own which brings enough challenge during the whole game (which the `Death World Marathon` definitely supposed to be).

After posting I've actually started to realize that its not entirely true, that the whole game was easy. The start was quite hard (so thats good), until I've hit the energy modules research, then it started being easy and with all those extra steps from my first post I started to steamroll. On this image you can see how the map currently looks:


At the moment the evolution factor is at 0.95, because of the cleanup you see on the image, however I've launched my first rocket at 0.92. Right now biters start to be annoying again because behemoths starting to be common enough, however until now, I literally hadn't had a breach or anything serious and I was just using laser turrets.

Actually the start of the game was difficult enough but after a given tech, there was no challenge.

I was hoping when the biters reach "Behemoth" level some "Behemoth Worms" will appear close to my base walls and siege down laser turrets so that I will need to build "Artillery" because of its huge range, for proper defense.

I think the setting-change about `Death World` + `Marathon` != `Death World Marathon` is logical, since it takes more time get to the same research as on a `Death World` would, I'm not sure tweaking (setting it back) more would be the right way.

So, to sum it up, a few notes/ideas which I feel could be iterated:
* green modules might be reducing too much pollution
* wandering (expanding) biter groups could be stronger for `Death world`, I didn't need to use flame-turrets, physical ammo nor land mines
* not sure if I would nerf laser turrets (I've seen they were just nerfed), however it would be cool to be enforced to use something else as than laser tech for defense

All-in-all it was a great experience and I still enjoy to conquer more of the map and kick some biter ass with A-bombs, however I consider myself a factorio-rookie and I've beaten `Death World Marathon` way too fast (in terms of trying). Keep up guys, you are doing a great game!

[jodokus31]

Thanks for all the reply guys, I'll try to be as detailed as possible.

First of all, this is my map exchange string.

There were multiple suggestions how to make the game more diffcult for myself, however I actually like to use what the game offers me and defeat with that toolset.

With the random generation of maps, you already have a very wide range of difficulty. Your map had a fairly large amount of trees and they eat a lot of pollution. Some rerolls later, you might get a map, which is almost impossible to beat, with the same parameters. f.e. Biters very close to starter patches, no trees, far oil, etc. Moving over to green areas can be quite hard, too, because bases getting bigger far out.

So, to sum it up, a few notes/ideas which I feel could be iterated:
* green modules might be reducing too much pollution
* wandering (expanding) biter groups could be stronger for `Death world`, I didn't need to use flame-turrets, physical ammo nor land mines
* not sure if I would nerf laser turrets (I've seen they were just nerfed), however it would be cool to be enforced to use something else as than laser tech for defense


All-in-all it was a great experience and I still enjoy to conquer more of the map and kick some biter ass with A-bombs, however I consider myself a factorio-rookie and I've beaten `Death World Marathon` way too fast. Keep up guys, you are doing a great game!

Honestly, you don't seem to be a rookie, if you survived early game of DM to get efficiency modules. . Despite the random difficulty, I suppose, there are not many out there, who can or want to do it.

Efficiency modules in miners are quite impactful. 3x Level 1's already max. out the 80%, no need for Level 2 or 3. Electric furnace and pumpjacks only have 2 slots, which gives 60% at Level 1, but its already a huge improvement. Level 2 or 3 are not really worth it, IMO.
Its strange, in normal settings, efficiency modules are not worth and here they seem OP...

[BlueTemplar]

I was hoping when the biters reach "Behemoth" level some "Behemoth Worms" will appear close to my base walls and siege down laser turrets so that I will need to build "Artillery" because of its huge range, for proper defense.

That has, in fact, been my experience. Not sure why it doesn't happen to you ?

Efficiency modules in miners are quite impactful. 3x Level 1's already max. out the 80%, no need for Level 2 or 3. Electric furnace and pumpjacks only have 2 slots, which gives 60% at Level 1, but its already a huge improvement. Level 2 or 3 are not really worth it, IMO.
Its strange, in normal settings, efficiency modules are not worth and here they seem OP...

Maybe efficiency module should be rebalanced so that the lowest module in the building would determine the maximum possible reduction ?
For instance, with at least one lvl1 module efficiency would be capped at -40%, lvl2 : -60%, and you would need only lvl3's for -80% ?

[freeafrica]

Maybe efficiency module should be rebalanced so that the lowest module in the building would determine the maximum possible reduction ?
For instance, with at least one lvl1 module efficiency would be capped at -40%, lvl2 : -60%, and you would need only lvl3's for -80% ?

Well, thats an idea as well. `jodokus31` also has a valid point (I've quoted him just below) that in `Default` play-mode those modules are not used that much. My point is that if you are gonna change something about it, maybe you could do that in a way effeciency modules will be meaningful in all play modes. Not sure doe' what/how I would do. :/

Efficiency modules in miners are quite impactful. 3x Level 1's already max. out the 80%, no need for Level 2 or 3. Electric furnace and pumpjacks only have 2 slots, which gives 60% at Level 1, but its already a huge improvement. Level 2 or 3 are not really worth it, IMO.
Its strange, in normal settings, efficiency modules are not worth and here they seem OP...

I was hoping when the biters reach "Behemoth" level some "Behemoth Worms" will appear close to my base walls and siege down laser turrets so that I will need to build "Artillery" because of its huge range, for proper defense.

That has, in fact, been my experience. Not sure why it doesn't happen to you ?

Interesting, well there are some "Behemoth Worms", however they are definitely NOT sieging my laser turrets and I got quite the defense line, so they sure have the possibility. :]

[freeafrica]

I've just seen there is a `Balancing` section on the forum, it might make sense to move this thread there? I did not scroll down enough when posting this thread.

[Oktokolo]

* not sure if I would nerf laser turrets (I've seen they were just nerfed), however it would be cool to be enforced to use something else as than laser tech for defense

The laser turrets are making it easy after surviving the start phase. Once set up, solar energy is free. So laser turrets are the only defense solution not costing any upkeep.
Additionally, they have higher range than normal turrets and don't need any logistics apart from a power line to the next accumulator array.

The upkeep thing is a design flaw of wich i don't know, how it could be fixed without making them completely useless. But reducing their range and hitpoints (making them more fragile and more likely to be hit) could be a start.
If their OPness isn't intentional that is. The game isn't primarily about tower defense. So maybe they wanted there to be an easy solution after reaching some tech level, so less unexperienced players rage quit because of getting overrun by biters after reaching mid game.

[JimBarracus]

Maybe its time for a mega death world setting.

I think the problem is the very thin line between handling the bugs or being run over.
There is no in between. So it feels easy or hardcore.

[jodokus31]

Efficiency modules in miners are quite impactful. 3x Level 1's already max. out the 80%, no need for Level 2 or 3. Electric furnace and pumpjacks only have 2 slots, which gives 60% at Level 1, but its already a huge improvement. Level 2 or 3 are not really worth it, IMO.
Its strange, in normal settings, efficiency modules are not worth and here they seem OP...

Maybe efficiency module should be rebalanced so that the lowest module in the building would determine the maximum possible reduction ?
For instance, with at least one lvl1 module efficiency would be capped at -40%, lvl2 : -60%, and you would need only lvl3's for -80% ?

Something along those lines. Would be nice, If efficiency modules of higher tier are clearly superior (or at least have some additional advantages). But now, efficiency module mk1 are just enough for one of the main pollution sources (miners) and very good for other main parts (furnaces, assembler mk2 and pumpjacks), with assembler mk3 arround the corner, where mk1 is also enough. (For expensive products, beacons + prods might be still better)
So you get the best efficiency module right away, because it's cheap and just enough.

Maybe its time for a mega death world setting.

I think the problem is the very thin line between handling the bugs or being run over.
There is no in between. So it feels easy or hardcore.

Yep, it's a thin line. If you are ahead, it feels easy, but then one mistake and it might be unrecoverable or at least really painfull.
I think, the beginning of current DM setting is hard enough. Midgame, it gets easier and endgame is not a lot harder than default settings. Still harder, because, there is also this setting, that attacks don't consume 100% but 50% of pollution, which should roughly double biter attacks.

I think it's also a big difference between evo 0.91 and 0.99, those behemoths increase the pressure once they are plentiful, and some gun turrets (with a lot more DPS compared to lasers) + flamers are nice to have.

[freeafrica]

The laser turrets are making it easy after surviving the start phase. Once set up, solar energy is free. So laser turrets are the only defense solution not costing any upkeep.
Additionally, they have higher range than normal turrets and don't need any logistics apart from a power line to the next accumulator array.

The upkeep thing is a design flaw of wich i don't know, how it could be fixed without making them completely useless. But reducing their range and hitpoints (making them more fragile and more likely to be hit) could be a start.
If their OPness isn't intentional that is. The game isn't primarily about tower defense. So maybe they wanted there to be an easy solution after reaching some tech level, so less unexperienced players rage quit because of getting overrun by biters after reaching mid game.

Ye, I completely agree with you, its not a tower defense game, in a `Default` game setting one shouldn't be focusing much on defense but on building a super-cool factory for himself. On the other hand if you got a difficulty which advertises itself as `Deathworld` I think its fair to expect that.

Finishing effeciency modules (and start using them) gives a huge biter-relief and laser turrets makes life very easy as well.

Don't get me wrong, I love that when achieving these I can focus on building "real" stuff, however I think that period shouldn't last forever. If the biters got a next-step (behemoth tech), they should make proper use of it and I should be upping my game in response as well if I want to live in `Deathworld`.

Maybe lowering evolution needed for behemoth and improving worm placement for them could an option?

[BlueTemplar]

How does the cost of efficiency 1 modules currently compares to the cost of more solar panels ?*
(My game is no solar, no laser, so I wouldn't know...)

Note that while DeathWorld Marathon has recently been made easier, Laser Turrets have also been moved from green to blue science.

You could perhaps have a better biter balance by only using the bare minimum defence ?
For instance, biters have recently sneaked around* a partial wall I placed (and in an area where pollution is touching nests !), and set up a base with worms even destroying a - probably poorly placed - roboport !

(Note that this is with 0.17.0 settings...)

[Oktokolo]

If their OPness isn't intentional that is. The game isn't primarily about tower defense. So maybe they wanted there to be an easy solution after reaching some tech level, so less unexperienced players rage quit because of getting overrun by biters after reaching mid game.

Ye, I completely agree with you, its not a tower defense game, in a `Default` game setting one shouldn't be focusing much on defense but on building a super-cool factory for himself. On the other hand if you got a difficulty which advertises itself as `Deathworld` I think its fair to expect that.

Balancing Factorio to make it hard to survive at the start is easy. Evolution is meant to keep it hard to survive while traversing mid and late game. But the evolution factor growth is highly dependent on the players actions - wich is one reason for going green in the first place.
To keep difficulty high after going green (wich includes getting free power from the sun), the effects of going green would need to be nerfed.
But efficiency modules are almost worthless in non-deathworld already and would still only involve a one-time fee to magically make everything produce less polution (and therefore less evolution).

In Factorio, in comparison to real life, going green is a build-time action only. Just replace power generation with solar fields and accumulators, switch to electric furnaces and put the magic modules in everything that accepts them. So beeing green is, like using lasers, a one-time fee you have to pay per placed entity. There is no upkeep for beeing green.

There are mods that change that, but none of it is vanilla-esque enough to have any expectations of it mnaking it into vanilla.
Also, going green is probably supposed to be the solution to Deathworld. It is meant to make it survivable with low actions per second.

Tying evolution to science production instead of pollution might be a way to nerf going green while making the normal turret slightly more favorable (still have to nerf lasers a lot though).
Efficiency modules would still make the biters attack less and would still be almost useless in non-deathworld (well, i use them in non-deathworld to lower the needed amount of solar farms to build and to let me get away with turrets at mining outposts that are only fed with ammo once at installation time).
In my opinion, efficiency modules tier 2 and 3 could just be axed (while at it, they should get rid of the pistol and steel or iron chests too).

Maybe lowering evolution needed for behemoth and improving worm placement for them could an option?

Both are nice to have for making the game a bit harder. Especially worm placement improvements could reintroduce needing some manual intervention for defense until installing artillery in the late game.

[jodokus31]

Efficiency modules would still make the biters attack less and would still be almost useless in non-deathworld (well, i use them in non-deathworld to lower the needed amount of solar farms to build and to let me get away with turrets at mining outposts that are only fed with ammo once at installation time).
In my opinion, efficiency modules tier 2 and 3 could just be axed (while at it, they should get rid of the pistol and steel or iron chests too).

I also don't think, that eff modules could be made more usefull in non-deathworld scenario, because pollution is not so problematic.
But I don't think, that removing mk2 and mk3 would be a good solution. It would not improve the existing behaviour, but only remove the minor occasions, where they could be useful. I would rather improve the usefulness of them