[0.17] combinator display unfriendliness

[zOldBulldog]

In 0.16 and before combinators would typically show just what kind of combinator it was, unless you turned on a settings option (that I can't find anymore for some reason) and then constant combinators would show their contents and arithmetic and decider combinators would show some other stuff that I'm not too clear on what it is.

QUESTIONS:

- Were there any changes made to how combinators behave in 0.17?

- What exactly do the various types of combinators currently display in 0.17 (with the setting to "display contents" turned on)?
--- I know that constant combinator show the contents.
--- I am absoultely confused about what arithmetics and decider combinators show.

SUGGESTIONS:

It would be nice if combinators were a bit more intuitive, so that anyone would understand them at first look. The following is what I would suggest.

@Mods: Please do not immediately move this thread to the Suggestions subforum. I would like to get some answers *before* it gets moved, as in that subforum very few people would bother to answer. I will manually request the move to that subforum in a few days, I hope that is OK. Thanks.

1) Always display the constant combinator content, even when the "display contents" setting is off. It would make things much more obvious.

2) If the "display contents" option is on, show the inputs and outputs for each arithmetic/combinator instead of the current symbols. For example L=1, B=3 (yes, they might have to be a bit smaller to fit, but it would be a lot clearer than now)

3) On mouse hover on the combinator, show inputs, outputs and formula on the right panel. By inputs and outputs I do mean each signal and its value.

I think these suggestions would make it easy to tell what each combinator does at a glance, or at least during a mouse hover... without having to open the combinator Edit interface itself.

[torne]

I- Were there any changes made to how combinators behave in 0.17?

I don't think so, it's always looked the same to me (I've always enabled the option to display the contents).

- What exactly do the various types of combinators currently display in 0.17 (with the setting to "display contents" turned on)?
--- I know that constant combinator show the contents.
--- I am absoultely confused about what arithmetics and decider combinators show.

They show the icons for the signals on which they are operating. The top icons are the input signals (there will only be one icon if the other input is a constant), and the bottom icon is the output signal. This is just showing which signals are selected, and not anything about the current values of those signals or whether they are actually even present at all.

Basically if you toggle alt mode on and off to see both the icons and the operation set on the combinator that's rendered on the actual sprite you can see most of the combinator's configuration without opening its GUI (the only things you don't see are the value of a constant input if there is one, and whether the output value is set to 1 or input value). Just looking at it in one mode or the other is not that useful, you have to toggle it on and off to see both for it to be very meaningful.

This is indeed not very friendly, though I'm not sure I quite follow the changes you suggest to have an opinion on whether that'd be an improvement

[zOldBulldog]

Bummer on the "no changes for 0.17". By showing the signals with no values... you can't tell what the combinator is doing by looking at it. I used to have to add a lamp on entry/exit to be able to tell... I guess I still have to

This is indeed not very friendly, though I'm not sure I quite follow the changes you suggest to have an opinion on whether that'd be an improvement

In simpler words, I am suggesting:

- Display the input and output all the time. Signal letter/icon and its value. Reason: If you know what a combinator does, you can tell its input and output state at a glance. So, if you are using it to drive a proces... you know what the process is doing just by looking at it.

- When you hover the mouse over it, show the full formula in addition to the input and output values - in the panel at the right of the screen (it currently shows very little *useful* info). Reason: If you don't know what the combinator does, putting the mouse over it will tell you all the relevant details without having to go into the edit interface of the combinator. Then, if you think it is wrong... you can click and go in to change it.

Basically, it would be much faster, easier and more intuitive.

[torne]

Bummer on the "no changes for 0.17". By showing the signals with no values... you can't tell what the combinator is doing by looking at it. I used to have to add a lamp on entry/exit to be able to tell... I guess I still have to

Well the popup info panel on the right tells you the values, so it's not quite that bad..

In simpler words, I am suggesting:

- Display the input and output all the time. Signal letter/icon and its value. Reason: If you know what a combinator does, you can tell its input and output state at a glance. So, if you are using it to drive a proces... you know what the process is doing just by looking at it.

That seems like it wouldn't really be legible.. I can barely tell what the icons are in the current UI without zooming right in a lot of the time

- When you hover the mouse over it, show the full formula in addition to the input and output values - in the panel at the right of the screen (it currently shows very little *useful* info). Reason: If you don't know what the combinator does, putting the mouse over it will tell you all the relevant details without having to go into the edit interface of the combinator. Then, if you think it is wrong... you can click and go in to change it.

This would be helpful, but it would have to apply to everything in the game with a circuit interface really, not just combinators: you'd have to see the options/parameters selected for any circuit-connected entity to really get a good idea, as often many of the entities in a given circuit network are not combinators at all.

[zOldBulldog]

Bummer on the "no changes for 0.17". By showing the signals with no values... you can't tell what the combinator is doing by looking at it. I used to have to add a lamp on entry/exit to be able to tell... I guess I still have to

Well the popup info panel on the right tells you the values, so it's not quite that bad..

In simpler words, I am suggesting:

- Display the input and output all the time. Signal letter/icon and its value. Reason: If you know what a combinator does, you can tell its input and output state at a glance. So, if you are using it to drive a proces... you know what the process is doing just by looking at it.

That seems like it wouldn't really be legible.. I can barely tell what the icons are in the current UI without zooming right in a lot of the time

- When you hover the mouse over it, show the full formula in addition to the input and output values - in the panel at the right of the screen (it currently shows very little *useful* info). Reason: If you don't know what the combinator does, putting the mouse over it will tell you all the relevant details without having to go into the edit interface of the combinator. Then, if you think it is wrong... you can click and go in to change it.

This would be helpful, but it would have to apply to everything in the game with a circuit interface really, not just combinators: you'd have to see the options/parameters selected for any circuit-connected entity to really get a good idea, as often many of the entities in a given circuit network are not combinators at all.

OK, how about this:

1) Always show the constant combinator content, regardless of the "show content" setting. (this currently only happens when you have the "show content" setting enabled)

2) Always show the full formula plus values on the right panel when you hover. (currently it shows "something" but not very meaningful) Do this also regardless of the "show content" setting.
- For example in the current 0.17 UI:
---I have a decider combinator that outputs B=1 when the inputs A < L.
--- When I hover on it, the right panel shows A, L, B signals involved but not their values and not their formula.
--- Even when I click on it, it does not give me the input or output values. I have to go hunting (for example to the constant combinator that defines L or the accumulator that defines A).
--- This is a royal pain and it should not be that hard to implement in the right panel.
- And as you well mentioned, do it for every item that has a formula.

3) If the "show content" setting is on, then show the values instead of the signal letters/icons that are currently being shown and are not very useful. In the example above show for example 3, 20 on the input side and 1 on the output side (since A=3, L=20 and thus B=1).

Does that sound like a solid solution? Should I go ahead and post it in the suggestions forums for 0.17?

[TruePikachu]

Actually, now that we can render icons inline with text, it should be feasable to show the full formula in the tooltip, at least in a style similar to `C:=A+B` or `A+B→C` (the latter ofc depends on us having reliable access to that glyph in the font). This can apply to both arithmetic and comparison combinators.