Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

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CDarklock
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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by CDarklock »

The Eriksonn wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:28 pm
Finished the tutorial with 5 seconds to go before the turret gets killed and biters destroys everything.
Conclusion: Bit too many biters but i sure got a rush out of it that i didnt expect at all. Was quite fun actually.
I've completed the campaign twice, but never lost. It seems to me that there's a pretty bright line between "I lost the campaign" and "I won but it was really hard," where the former are upset but the latter think it was fun.

So maybe those of us who didn't lose... don't have meaningful opinions. Maybe the only opinions that matter are the people who are upset, because we want to reduce those. If people like us, who think it was fun, think a rebalanced scenario was less fun? That's not really a problem. But people who play the intro and get mad are a lot more likely to dislike the game altogether, which is a problem.

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by Dune »

Koub wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:45 pm
Took me 5 attempts (new games) during several hours total to be able to outpace biter attacks during my first playthroughs back in 0.10.
I think things changed gradually towards being easier the last 5 years, and the devs might have thought it was somehow easier that first expected, and rebalanced.
Failing with default settings for the few first attempts shouldn't be considered abnormal.
I'd like to see speed runs "world record" guys actually face some biters. They're usually up to lasers by the time the game gives them biters.
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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by Ranakastrasz »

ahydra447 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:31 pm
One problem is that there's no way to control pollution short of turning your factory off completely, which then prevents you making ammo to defend yourself. If there was some sort of pollution absorber you could build e.g. some plants, filtering tech, ... you could choose to try to prevent attacks that way.
Build only what you need. Minimize extra power wasters. Don't have tons of idle assemblers or furnaces or whatever. Switch to cleaner energy sources ASAP. Solar power is green tech. Don't cut down trees if you don't need to. Switch to efficiency modules as soon as feasible.
Seriously, the impact of green modules was obscene back when I first tried them.

Admittedly, you don't have many tools early on, which is a bit of a problem, but, well, once you get to the stage where pollution is bothering many layers of biters... yea.

-----
Being able to eat pollution via coal filters or w.e. would be nice. Saw a few mods like that, but pollution has been such a non-factor that I never bothed trying them. Maybe in the future now tho.
My Mods:
Modular Armor Revamp - V16
Large Chests - V16
Agent Orange - V16
Flare - V16
Easy Refineries - V16

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by CDarklock »

ahydra447 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:31 pm
One problem is that there's no way to control pollution short of turning your factory off completely, which then prevents you making ammo to defend yourself. If there was some sort of pollution absorber you could build e.g. some plants, filtering tech, ... you could choose to try to prevent attacks that way.
I would definitely like to see more ways of controlling pollution in the game overall. Probably the simplest would be to have plantable trees, where you can process wood into seeds that can be placed and will grow into trees over time. (I am pretty sure i saw a mod that does this. Something about saplings.) But I don't see that being particularly useful in the campaign.

And you can control pollution incrementally, where you take down parts of your factory. You don't have to do everything at scale, all at once.

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by christian »

akmotu wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:05 pm
christian wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:54 pm
akmotu wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:10 pm
Graphics aside, the combat feels heavily in favor of the biters now. It feels more like a combat game and less like a building game. I had the game set to default in 17.1, and within 5 minutes I had biters on my base. Also, these small biters were doing WAY more damage than any other small biter I'd seen in 0.16. Trying to do turret walks, I noticed picking up turrets is incredibly slow compared to last version. It's like the Devs are punishing us as the game develops to make it harder for an existing community as opposed to a 1.0 audience.
Jesus Christ.... there's a setting to make the biters easier [Moderated by Koub]. I love games with a challenge. I hope the devs don't pander and coddle the types of gamers like you. The trend in games is to make things easier and easier like we're 10 yr olds. The harder the game the bigger the sense of accomplishment.

Oh yeah why don't you just turn biters off if you want a city building only experience?
The devs asked for feedback. This is mine. Sounds like you took it personally. All that aside, this feedback is with new players in mind. I've been playing for some time. It's feedback for an experimental version of an early access game. Maintain your perspective.
Why do you think I reacted the way I did? I'm also giving them feedback by vehemently opposing what you're crying about. You know there's this game called Hello Kitty Online.

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by Koub »

[Koub] Please people, chill, all feedback is appreciated by the devs, no need to start attacking each other.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by christian »

CDarklock wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:34 pm
The Eriksonn wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:28 pm
Finished the tutorial with 5 seconds to go before the turret gets killed and biters destroys everything.
Conclusion: Bit too many biters but i sure got a rush out of it that i didnt expect at all. Was quite fun actually.
I've completed the campaign twice, but never lost. It seems to me that there's a pretty bright line between "I lost the campaign" and "I won but it was really hard," where the former are upset but the latter think it was fun.

So maybe those of us who didn't lose... don't have meaningful opinions. Maybe the only opinions that matter are the people who are upset, because we want to reduce those. If people like us, who think it was fun, think a rebalanced scenario was less fun? That's not really a problem. But people who play the intro and get mad are a lot more likely to dislike the game altogether, which is a problem.
Simple solution was already suggested. It also already exists in the game, it's called biter difficulty tab. Altho with all the settings there it wouldn't hurt to have presets on there like "easy" "normal" "hard" "very hard", and then an extra setting called "for 8 yr olds".

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by christian »

Koub wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:06 am
[Koub] Please people, chill, all feedback is appreciated by the devs, no need to start attacking each other.
I'm sorry, just tired of games I love being watered down to the least common denominator. :( I'll stop.

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by akmotu »

If the game becomes too easy or not enough of a challenge, then I'm sure those sliders can help increase the difficulty.

The game is intended for all, not solely your masachistic tastes. But your responses do imply your lack of open mindedness, level of willingness to participate in a community and overall lack of understanding of how works in progress develop.

You are of little consequence.

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by mrvn »

akmotu wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:15 pm
Then if that's the case, which is entirely their prerogative, the devs need to add a clear and obvious written or visual indicator to the player that the turret takes longer to pick up either via a stat or an entry in the description. Otherwise, a new player would be lost as to why the turret is the only item in the game with a different pick up rate.
Lots have things have different mining speeds. Compare mining a belt to a chest for example.

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by sathill »

I use before combo of wall-enough space-fire turret and then gun turret for lulz (not really neede). Its works flawless. Laser turrets was boring. Easy to setup, easy to supply. Fire turrets are also easy to build, supply via train. Just use turret near turret. Then look at minimal turret distance and build wall no closer than this distance. Ammo its very cheap. Damage its great and aoe even without upgrades. 100 behemoths rushing? Cool show nothing more. I personally use crude oil for ammo because +low damage its not worth extra work plus sometimes there is oil deposit on spot so not even need for ammo delivery system. Cheap, powerloss resistant, great health, walls and rails resistany to fire only rails signals are not. Only very beginning of game can be somehow hard. Im blind or something but i cant find starting are size slider on new game. When i start new game i have problems with bitters spawning on (or very near) starting resources and pistol + 10ammo are not enough to kill this single nest. So far with my fire turret playstyle no issuses with bitters but on new game they are too close to starting point (not always). Plus in 0.16 i always disable cliffs but now they are great for defence. Natural walls. Also with big lakes its nice for example to landfill that big lake and build outpost inside wit small pach of water around it. Just wach out for range spitters. For me as experienced player this open new styles of play. Build inside cliff heavy terrain. In landfilled lake or in open terrain with fireturrets. For new players maybe its too much.

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by CDarklock »

christian wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:08 am
then an extra setting called "for 8 yr olds".
And that's why it won't work: because there is a massive cultural stigma attached to reducing difficulty.

The default has to be acceptable to most players, and it should err on the side of easy rather than hard.

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by Drone971 »

CDarklock wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:58 pm
christian wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:08 am
then an extra setting called "for 8 yr olds".
And that's why it won't work: because there is a massive cultural stigma attached to reducing difficulty.

The default has to be acceptable to most players, and it should err on the side of easy rather than hard.
I absolutely disagree with that. Default difficulty should present
-mediocre player with challenge, possibly forcing him to learn something new, so that it wont get very repetitive after he finishes the game few times. Most playthroughs that average player plays, should be on this difficulty.
-less skilled player should not be able to finish it without restarting few times and learning a lot.

For people who dont want to learn, there are always settings that can help you with that (the difficulty presets are very reasonable thing to do)

For example if i would walk (i am nerdy type 28yo programmer) into gym where regulars lift weigts, the "normal" what they are lifting would also be absolutely insane for me. Just as Factorio should be for new players. You just cant expect people to do something new (lifting weights or playing factorio) and in first 10 min they would be "average". Thats not how learning curve works dude...

PS: And of course there is a "cultural stigma" about lowering difficulty, it makes new players pussies (i mean soft kitties, not the naughty word!)
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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by CDarklock »

Drone971 wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:06 pm
I absolutely disagree with that.
Why should the default settings of a game NOT be the settings best suited to a new player?

When you install a game, start it, and choose "new game" for the first time - you should get a game that you enjoy playing. Full stop.

By what logic do you claim otherwise?
For people who dont want to learn, there are always settings that can help you with that (the difficulty presets are very reasonable thing to do)
People who don't want to learn should learn to adjust the settings?
For example if i would walk (i am nerdy type 28yo programmer) into gym where regulars lift weigts, the "normal" what they are lifting would also be absolutely insane for me.
The "default" weight is an empty 20-kilo barbell. In order to make it a regular's "normal," you have to adjust the settings by stacking plates on it. Literally everyone walks into the gym, adjusts the weight to their personal needs, and racks their weights afterward. Those are the rules in gyms. You don't leave your plates and chains on the bar, and you don't leave the power rack adjusted to your height. You reset it, so the next person is starting from a known state.
You just cant expect people to do something new (lifting weights or playing factorio) and in first 10 min they would be "average".
That's not what I expect. I expect the default settings of the game to be consistently fun for most new players, potentially including losses and loaded saves, until they have finished the game at least once. At this point, they may or may not need to tweak the settings for the game to be fun on their next playthrough.

A minority of players may need to alter the settings for the game to be fun, even the first time they play. They should have adequate opportunity to learn what settings matter and how to tweak those settings for a better experience, and they should not be ridiculed or criticised for it. The game should certainly not laugh and point and call them names. Neither should the community.

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by Kaiji »

I'll throw in my 2c as someone who dabbled occasionally with the game from initial (non-steam) release up until version 15, and restarted playing with the latest patch, as I believe my mindset is closer to a brand new player than people who have played for hundreds of hours.

The game is far, far better this way.

In previous patches I lost interest quickly, often asking myself why biters were even in the game. Now it feels like it's me vs them. Every decision I make is balanced on a knife edge, which is simply good game design. Without a considerable looming threat, I may as well be in a sandbox playing with Legos, which is fine to learn the mechanics of the game but does nothing to make me feel challenged.

It's really very simple: The default game mode must represent the way Wube designed the game to be played in the long-term. That is why is called "default".

If new players can't handle the default mode, then they're presented with an excellent challenge: Get good enough at the game to advance from easy mode to default.

In short, prior to this patch the default mode felt bland and failed to captivate me. Now it feels like it really has that special sauce that game designers dream of concocting. Every aspect of the game needs to be considered and balanced as you play.

Great work, Wube. I hope this default version of the game is closer to what you plan to present at final release than the "biters are a minor irritation at best, completely forgettable at worst" template we've seen up until now.

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by Light »

I must say I absolutely love that they buffed the biters. Now you don't need mods to experience some form of challenge from them, as they were just cannon fodder for artifact collection in 0.15, then became pointless in 0.16.

Adding just one or two biter mods is now enough to challenge the more experienced players who like to keep the tension up, but it's no longer mandatory. Which is most certainly a step in the right direction.

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by HurkWurk »

default settings may need some tuning. so feedback on that is good.

however, if you are looking for playable settings, just do a custom game and really the only thing you need to change is the default starting area, set it to the new maximum 600, and you will have plenty of time to build up before biters are even close to you.

you can also play with grass coverage (grass absorbs more pollution than desert) you can also directly play with the pollution, IE turn up natural absorption, or my personal favorite, make it so that trees absorb a lot more (default is 500, i set it to 3000). I play with greenhouse mods, so just plant new trees when the old ones die.

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by CDarklock »

Kaiji wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:46 pm
It's really very simple: The default game mode must represent the way Wube designed the game to be played in the long-term. That is why is called "default".
That's not what "default" means everywhere else on the planet. It means "the settings most likely desired by the first-time user." The more complex and technical the product is, the more likely it becomes that default settings are thoroughly inappropriate for long-term use.

Any device with a combination, password, or PIN for example. The default is always wrong. You have to change it.
In short, prior to this patch the default mode felt bland and failed to captivate me.
That's definitely an issue. And the developers are addressing it, because they should.

But they can't address it for JUST you, or even JUST people like you. They have to address it for everybody.

As long as there are settings I like, I'm good. You don't have to make things work for me by default. I am smart enough to figure out what the sliders do and how to use them. (A tremendous amount of work has been done on that in this release, incidentally, so a whole hell of a lot more people can say that.) And I'm not afraid to move them in whatever direction I need to for the results I want.

But the defaults need to be geared toward the people who are not that smart yet. If you look at the settings screen and are afraid to touch anything, your desired experience matters. A lot.

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by nikow »

Yeah, campaign is kinda hard, but StarCraft one was harder IMHO.

That's true that you're attacked faster now - first atack was when i didn't yet had automation done, but it was just two small biters, which i pew, pew using pistol. They was a warning. I already had one stone miner, 6 coal ones, 2 copper mines/smelter and 6 iron's mines/smelters. I researched automation, towers and logistics when second wave came - it was just 5 biters. They bited me, but nothing serious. Because i was warned, i prepared one tower for every place where i expected to be atacked (i actually put radar and saw two bases close to me). Next three waves i didn't even notices, 4th one depleted my ammo in turret, so i placed two more and They took care about the problem.

At the end of red tier science, i was attacked from three sides. Every side has been covered by one turret nest - 3 turrets sorrounded by walls. Before i ended green tier science my turret nests growed three times - i just build two additional 'nests' on sides. One of nests is reinforced by second row of turrets (so there is now 18 turrets with 15 ammo). Everything is good and i don't need to make any repairs as long as i remember to resupply turrets with ammo.

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Re: Not pleased with 17.1 so far...

Post by warzouz »

I didn't restart a game for 0.17. I imported my old base. Graphics improovements are very nice. As for the bitter upgrade, that's not a bad thing.

My experience so far :

Sure after importing my base, my defenses were overrun in a minute, but upgrading those defenses was easy. I had a lot of wall.

In the previous 0.16, defenses was a simple wall with few laser turrets and a roboport with few robots and several packs. No need for uplift, no repair parts. Easy.

After upgrading my defenses, things returned to normal. My base is safe. It's not a huge upgrade.


The only thing I'm worrying is how set the difficulty for new player. Even me, I'm not too sure what to set to have some challenge and avoid never be attacked.

Sure I must test the first few hours of gameplay, but overall, it's a nice upgrade. Don't forget it's the 0.17.1, not the 0.17.55

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