Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Hannu » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:43 pm

Koub wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:02 am
If the tank becomes potent enough to face end-game threat, and to be on par with a MkII power armor ... then what's the point of the power armor ?
Mobility and possibility to use large number of construction bots.
I think the tank should remain the good mid-game tool to fight biters it already is, creating a bridge between the times when you can fight biters on foot or with a car and the times you need artillery/nukes/power armor stuffed with shields and exosqueletons.
Yes, but it should be a good tool to be a good tool. Biter bases are quite large even at default settings at that phase of the game and if you need 3 cannon shots to kill one base (because they heal between rounds around), it is far from good. Maybe you think conquering of single nearby iron deposit, but I think railworlds which need huge areas effectively conquered. I agree nerfing of machine gun (even real 12.7 mm tank machine guns have very much more than double "dps" compared to submachine guns) if they double (or triple) cannon power to be one shot one kill against nests. Explosive rounds should kill or damage couple of nearby biters too to be worth of investment.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by netmand » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:59 pm

My use of the tank is to truck out long distances in base, although it's slower it's a lot easier to control and doesn't get stopped by the errant tree branch along the way. If I'm using it for clearing nests before modular armor and combat bots I do use the machine gun. So I can see why people would complain about removing the damage bonus since this is usually the time before uranium rounds and lots of bullet damage and speed upgrades. Despite this I still think calling this a massive nerf is a bit overstating it.

Think of it this way; someday you may be discussing the "good 'ole days" of pre-release factorio... will you be the one that might say, "I remember when the gun was more powerful in the tank." I asked myself that question, and no, I don't think so for me.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Frightning » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:38 pm

Hannu wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:43 pm
Koub wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:02 am
If the tank becomes potent enough to face end-game threat, and to be on par with a MkII power armor ... then what's the point of the power armor ?
Mobility and possibility to use large number of construction bots.
I think the tank should remain the good mid-game tool to fight biters it already is, creating a bridge between the times when you can fight biters on foot or with a car and the times you need artillery/nukes/power armor stuffed with shields and exosqueletons.
Yes, but it should be a good tool to be a good tool. Biter bases are quite large even at default settings at that phase of the game and if you need 3 cannon shots to kill one base (because they heal between rounds around), it is far from good. Maybe you think conquering of single nearby iron deposit, but I think railworlds which need huge areas effectively conquered. I agree nerfing of machine gun (even real 12.7 mm tank machine guns have very much more than double "dps" compared to submachine guns) if they double (or triple) cannon power to be one shot one kill against nests. Explosive rounds should kill or damage couple of nearby biters too to be worth of investment.
This is not true: Even the most basic and lowest damage cannon shell does a total of 300 damage without upgrades. Even with spawner resistances accounted for, two shells will do over 350 damage to it. Meaning it's at worst a 2-shot kill (Explosive shells can actually 1-shot them without upgrades with direct hits). Even a few damage upgrades will bring that 1-shot kills for even Cannon shells.
https://wiki.factorio.com/Cannon_shell
https://wiki.factorio.com/Enemies#Spawners
With enough damage upgrades the explosion of the Explosive cannon shells (both varieties) can be enough to 1-shot nests within their blast radius, which actually makes them really good at clearing nests (circle-strafing around the biter base will also help to give you a clean line of fire as the biters follow a pursuit curve and thus won't be blocking your shots as much).

I feel like you haven't really used the tank cannon much, especially with the tactics I am proposing, since 0.15 combat changes landed. Because before then I would have agreed that it felt lacking, but then, so did basically everything that wasn't the Flamethrower.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Hannu » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:15 am

Frightning wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:38 pm
This is not true: Even the most basic and lowest damage cannon shell does a total of 300 damage without upgrades. Even with spawner resistances accounted for, two shells will do over 350 damage to it. Meaning it's at worst a 2-shot kill (Explosive shells can actually 1-shot them without upgrades with direct hits). Even a few damage upgrades will bring that 1-shot kills for even Cannon shells.
Thanks for the information. They have made it better.
I feel like you haven't really used the tank cannon much, especially with the tactics I am proposing, since 0.15 combat changes landed. Because before then I would have agreed that it felt lacking, but then, so did basically everything that wasn't the Flamethrower.
You are right. I used cannon many version ago, but when flamethrower came, it was clearly the best option. Then it took 2 shots to kill nest if you could shoot them fast. But when you drove around the colony it was hard to shoot 2 shots to one nest and when I went around they had healed so that second round did not destroy them.

But it seems that I should give a second try to cannon (and combat bots too). I like to build manufacturing chains for complex stuff and hope that they are enough powerful and nice to use compared to simple basic stuff, like bullets.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by mudcrabempire » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:10 pm

I think tanks are reasonably strong in terms of firepower, especially after investing into some research. What I do think they are not, is tanky (as one might think from the name). They also tend to have issues with large amounts of biters, which tends to happen when you clear nests (though the flamethrower helps here, it also means letting them get into attack distance and again, you can´t take that much.

Especially compared to the energy shield, it doesn´t compete very well. For example with a full combat-oriented modular armor you can go total gung-ho, running straight through large biter nests and destroy them without even using your weapons. With a tank that´s just suicide (for the tank at least).

That being said, tanks are still usefull. They just have a very small timing window where they really shine and unless you play in more difficult modes, you can "bridge over" that timing window with other technologies pretty easily.

As I see it, the main issue why tanks scale badly is only the lack of options to improve their durability. Two options which I see would be: 1)Add some research to improve tank durability (or maybe vehicle durability in general). 2)Permit energy shields to be deployed from within a vehicle (that is, your shield will not only protect you, but also any vehicle you are riding).

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by BlueTemplar » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:31 pm

I agree fully about the issues with the tank durability,
but I'd like to add that you can actually "increase" it dramatically by using repair bots - though that does require to stand still (or maybe move very slowly?).

Also, stunning/pushing biters with Discharge Defense helps a lot ! (So, not really a suicide, unless there's a large amount of worms.)
Did you mean to say Power Armor Mk2 rather than Modular Armor ?
Filling your armor with Laser Defense, and using the tank instead of shields/exoskeletons also works very well !

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by mudcrabempire » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:45 pm

I'm aware of those points. I generally dislike using construction robots for in-combat repairs, because they are pretty vulnerable, just by being outside the tank (and if you constantly take damage they will be constantly outside, regardless of how slow you are). Compared to the energy shield's recharge function, which is free and completely save (as long as you have power), they just aren't a good alternative. Though I am very stingy about wasting resources, so this might be a personal issue.

I already factored in discharge defense. Without it, I would never run straight into a base of biters. It's a bit less usefull on the tank though because the tank is much fatter than the player, so you may get some breathing room but you still get stuck easily.

I used "modular armor" as a general term for all types of armor with slots for stuff.

Going all-out with PLDs sounds like worth a try. I haven't so far, because I usually prefer an all-purpose loadout for my armor, so I don't have to switch all the time and I can safe inventory space (I'm already using one for combat, one for utility and a spare portable fusion reactor for when my batteries run dry).

All that being said, while I stand by my arguments, I also haven't used my tank very much, so I should propably go do that before I continue arguing on this matter.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by BlueTemplar » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:49 pm

I survived this :
lake.png
lake.png (5.54 MiB) Viewed 866 times
(IIRC, I didn't even lose that many bots, as biters tend to target you preferentially.)

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by bobucles » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:56 pm

Bots are super effective at repairing the tank. It has high defenses so the incoming damage gets heavily mitigated, while the bots heal up at a fairly impressive rate. The extra survivability is very noticable. What if the tank (and maybe any unit) could have multiple "repair targets" on it? That way multiple bots can perform repairs on units with exceptional HP.

The only real annoyance with repair drones is that bots will fly out to repair damaged bots. If one bot gets hurt, chances are it's in a situation where another bot is going to get hurt so you get a conga line of bots all dying to protect each other. Currently, bots get a free heal when they dock so there is no purpose to the repair behavior. Even if they didn't get the free heal, there's very little sense in repairing a bot until it returns safely to dock.

There's another annoyance where land mines leave ghosts behind when you're using them as 1-shot consumables. There are reasons to replace mines as part of automating defenses, but when you throw them like capsules you don't want bots running out to die. I lose so many bots that way.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Oktokolo » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:31 am

bobucles wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:56 pm
There's another annoyance where land mines leave ghosts behind when you're using them as 1-shot consumables. There are reasons to replace mines as part of automating defenses, but when you throw them like capsules you don't want bots running out to die. I lose so many bots that way.
Is that a confirmed land mine use outside PvP? Are they of any use in PvE?

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by BlueTemplar » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:42 am

Uh, what do you mean by "confirmed" ?
EDIT : never mind, this is not a mine thread.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Jap2.0 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:19 am

Oktokolo wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:31 am
bobucles wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:56 pm
There's another annoyance where land mines leave ghosts behind when you're using them as 1-shot consumables. There are reasons to replace mines as part of automating defenses, but when you throw them like capsules you don't want bots running out to die. I lose so many bots that way.
Is that a confirmed land mine use outside PvP? Are they of any use in PvE?
I've never used them much myself, but there was someone (I think on here) a while back that said something along the lines of that they were pretty cheap, did decent damage, could be placed quickly, and stunned biters, and they had some numbers that sounded decently legit.
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by bobucles » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:59 pm

but there was someone (I think on here)
That was me! Land mines are super powerful because of their extreme fire rate. You can deploy them as fast as you can shake your mouse. They're very cost competitive when compared to grenades/capsules, do great damage, and the crowd control reduces a lot of heat on your avatar. The secret is not to drop 5-10 mines, but to carry a thousand mines and sweep your mouse to drop 50+ at a time. It cleans up house, but don't take my word for it. Try it yourself.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Oktokolo » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:33 am

bobucles wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:59 pm
Land mines are super powerful because of their extreme fire rate. You can deploy them as fast as you can shake your mouse. They're very cost competitive when compared to grenades/capsules, do great damage, and the crowd control reduces a lot of heat on your avatar. The secret is not to drop 5-10 mines, but to carry a thousand mines and sweep your mouse to drop 50+ at a time. It cleans up house, but don't take my word for it. Try it yourself.
I mostly use the good ole submachinegun exclusively to mow down everything until i get nukes.
Crowd control sounds nice to have (no pullbacks anymore). But are mines more cost-efficient than bullets?

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by bobucles » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:56 am

But are mines more cost-efficient than bullets?
The cost efficiency of ammo is TERRIBLE so that's not a tall order. 14 ore gets you 10 red bullets for all of 80 damage, plus buffs. Four mines cost 5 ore, 15 petrol and 1 coal and is worth 1200 AoE damage (plus new research in .17). Mines are pretty good yo.

Nothing can beat a flame thrower though. A single spurt of hot thick goo will deal 3000 damage from the burning debuff! The direct damage of a flamethrower is absolute garbage and that is clearly visible on the tank variant, which loses the debuff ability.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by quyxkh » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:17 pm

bobucles wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:56 am
But are mines more cost-efficient than bullets?
The cost efficiency of ammo is TERRIBLE so that's not a tall order. 14 ore gets you 10 red bullets for all of 80 damage, plus buffs. Four mines cost 5 ore, 15 petrol and 1 coal and is worth 1200 AoE damage (plus new research in .17). Mines are pretty good yo.
Jesus, that 4x on the landmine recipe never penetrated my thick skull until now, _thanks!_. With a marginal cost that low the 2700 iron +etc for the leaf-node research amortizes pdq, like you say, scatter them like confetti. No, "party poppers", heh.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Oktokolo » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:50 am

bobucles wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:56 am
But are mines more cost-efficient than bullets?
The cost efficiency of ammo is TERRIBLE so that's not a tall order. 14 ore gets you 10 red bullets for all of 80 damage, plus buffs. Four mines cost 5 ore, 15 petrol and 1 coal and is worth 1200 AoE damage (plus new research in .17). Mines are pretty good yo.

Nothing can beat a flame thrower though. A single spurt of hot thick goo will deal 3000 damage from the burning debuff! The direct damage of a flamethrower is absolute garbage and that is clearly visible on the tank variant, which loses the debuff ability.
Wow. Maybe i should really try using the flamer or mines instead of bullets.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Zaflis » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:26 pm

Maybe the biggest issue for tank in late game is its survivability. This big bulk of metal breaks easier than just player wearing power armor. It all comes down to lack of shields, i really think the vehicle grid would help a lot. I don't want more tank armor, i need hp that doesn't need bots to repair it.

Construction bots are going to kill themselves if they fly out during combat, and even if you use a mod to let them only do that when stopped it's not going to solve it. You will sometimes stop while in combat, that's unavoidable. Or maybe you get attacked while they are repairing, you are forced to move and then they can't fly back in as you get damaged more and... Yeah it's crap.

About damage output, i have to admit i always went with piercing rounds and later uranium ammo for machine gun. But i complement the damage with cluster grenades. They cost a bit more than regular grenades, but they are like mini nukes... They deal far more damage than regular grenades, and does the damage faster and more than poison capsules. Actually i can't think of a single case where poison capsules would be good, their damage is just too weak and non-upgradeable. Not even all trees fall in 1 hit. Throw 1-2 cluster grenades and watch a big pile of hives flat down. You'll need more throws for behemoths though. I can't imagine explosive shells be anywhere near in comparison to at least the area of the explosion. It's just the infrastructure and cost of cannon shells that's a let down, it's so late game i normally have Kovarex up and running before i even consider cannon shells, and i usually don't bother.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by dunpealhunter » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:33 pm

I wonder how many people saw this topic title, got excited thinking 0.17 got released only to be met by disappointment....

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by BlueTemplar » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:02 am

Zaflis wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:26 pm
Actually i can't think of a single case where poison capsules would be good, their damage is just too weak and non-upgradeable.
Worm cleanup.

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