Defending your base is just to easy!

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Khagan
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Khagan »

aka13 wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:24 pm
I could of course simply stop using pd3 in miners, and drop my pollution by miners close to 0 by switching to eff1 en masse, but I don't think that it counts as fun gameplay, when I am being punished for maximising my production with no way of fighting back.
If you have level 3 artillery range you presumably have a decent level of mining productivity tech. So replacing the PMs in the drills with EMs should knock only a few percentage points off your ore output. And it's not like you are short of unexploited ore patches to make up the difference.

Do I gather correctly from the picture that you are running solar power, not nuclear? If so, that means that the total cost of using PMs in mining drills is huge. That cost includes the pollution generated in making all those panels, and the ammo expended in dealing with the consequences of that pollution.

For me, 'fun gameplay' mostly consists in finding the most cost-effective way for the factory to grow. If you choose to maximise production regardless of cost, I think you have limited grounds for complaint when the bill is presented.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by aka13 »

I agree on all points you present. I also agree with your mindset - I think that the way you propose is one of the most fun ways to play.
What I am complaining about, is "I can not steamroll biters and defense, although at this game stage I should be able to. "

Let me do something stupidly unneeded and brute, like carpet bomb everything around me into a radioactive wasteland which damages everything, and clean it up, when I need it, or something like that.
(Also, screw the new unremovable alien creep, literally transformed my Nauvis to a flesh planet)
Let me burn fuel non stop in a giant fire lake around the walls. I should not be in danger on that planet at that point, I should be the danger :D
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by mmmPI »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:11 pm
Yes, if you're not willing to put an eff3 mod in your miners, it's going to be hard. No doubt.
I have to respectfully disagree and advice for using eff1 in mining drill as those are cheaper to cap the reduction in energy consumption ( -80% achieved with 3 eff1) Eff3 would supposedly be because you use beacon setups ?

I don't think if one is using beacon setup that even eff3 would be enough to reduce pollution to the normal level, 3 eff3 would only give a -150% reduction. At this point i think the polution is not really diminshed enough for it to be worth the ressources.

aka13 wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:51 pm
And with speed modules of miners that effect would be the same btw, I got flamed to hell about pd3 in miners, but the pollution impact would be almost the same, 210% instead of 240% on pd.
I have to respectfully disagree too, although i may have been responsible for "flame" and this i cannot disagree, i would argue that the pollution effect is worse with PD3 than with speed because the energy consumption is not the only thing that is to be accounted for. PD3 increases energy consumption AND pollution AND reduce speed ( meaning you need more of them) while Speed module would only increase energy consumption. ( pollution increase only as a consequences of higher energy consumption, speed module do not increase pollution directly as PD3 does, PD3 much worse for pollution ).

I think the combat required for expansion will not be easier with less pollution, only less frequent attacks. So it may not be a huge change as Khagan mentionned, switching to eff1 module may still save you the tedium of placing a lot of solar pannel. ( and make those ressources into mining prod bonus instead ).
Khagan wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:28 pm
If you have level 3 artillery range you presumably have a decent level of mining productivity tech. So replacing the PMs in the drills with EMs should knock only a few percentage points off your ore output. And it's not like you are short of unexploited ore patches to make up the difference.
I think you would need LESS mining drill if you place efficiency module in them than if you were to place productivity module, because although PD3 increase productivity by 10 % they decrease speed by 15% for an overall reduction of output.
aka13 wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:33 pm
What I am complaining about, is "I can not steamroll biters and defense, although at this game stage I should be able to. "
Isn't it part of what makes the game so additctive ? You never feel like it's boring because you are under constant threat ?

I'm more on the side of "yes defense is just too easy" , easy , but repetitive and tedious, maybe not easy in early game in death world , or marathon death world, but i feel the challenge is not against the biters like you would face in RTS against human opponent, ( or smart AI :D) the real challenge is about managing your time, setting your objectives, being consistant, adapating, those are similar to what you'd do in a RTS but the answer of the opponent is always the same, predictible, and therefore exploitable. ( they only know 1 strat ).

Not polluting more than you can handle, not going too fast early on, not going too slow either, and later not being too greedy , not leaving a gap, not making a mistake in fighting, that's why i played mostly peaceful game now. Because the kind of challenge doesn't really interest me past the point where i know what to do, i did it quite a bit, but then it's repetitive (imo .

I could still play a game with biters though, from time to time, just to lure some biters in a forest and then set the forest on fire while i escape to throw rocket on their nest while eating fish like the good old days when i didn't feel like a monster but was still venting my frustration from their non stop attacks x)

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

aka13 wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:33 pm
I agree on all points you present. I also agree with your mindset - I think that the way you propose is one of the most fun ways to play.
What I am complaining about, is "I can not steamroll biters and defense, although at this game stage I should be able to. "
But the point is, with your map, you can steamroll. Logistics + artillery on islands. Your water is more or less within 3 levels of artillery, so you should be able to get nearly full coverage. Defense via land mines and lasers is very doable, though unnecessary and wasteful, imho.

With artillery on islands, Biters can't path back and just get blown to oblivion. Admittedly, if you haven't set up your roboports correctly, it can be a bit tedious to do, but this is marathon...

I notice in the DLC the first picture was an 'overlord' type biter that looks like it can fly and get wet. My guess they will nerf this 'loophole' via that (one of my suggestions :)

mmPi, I'm not sure I understand your issues with eff3. They reduce power usage and pollution by 50%. Any reduction will mean a smaller cloud, it all depends on how much you need to reduce it by. You can go full eff3, which I do until my artillery is ranged enough, or you can do 1 eff3 and 2 PMs. Every bit helps. And yeah, I beacon my miners, why not.
Last edited by blazespinnaker on Fri Sep 16, 2022 6:40 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

Khagan wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:28 pm
Do I gather correctly from the picture that you are running solar power, not nuclear? If so, that means that the total cost of using PMs in mining drills is huge. That cost includes the pollution generated in making all those panels, and the ammo expended in dealing with the consequences of that pollution.
I couldn't see it either, but I have to assume it's there for the lasers.


Here's how I set up my DW marathon, note the roboport gridding (big blueprint for that) so I don't have to travel anywhere to put stuff down (I play about 90% in map mode). To push back biters when my cloud expanded, I just had a BP artillery fed by logistics surrounded by land mines and lasers.

Admittedly some folks will find my over reliance on logistics a bit much, but DW marathon is a bit much.

BTW, I'm not really complaining here. I completely lost all conceit once I tried rampant DW. I seriously challenge any over confident factorio PvE player to try that. I suspect the winning approach is to speedrun it to get ahead of evolution, which is what really gets you via some of the more wicked rampant biters. Those pheromones though... yikes. And they're pretty happy to take out any kind of infra. Very very brutal, but fun for sure. Lots of great variety in mechanics.
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Koub »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:54 am
[mmPi, I'm not sure I understand your issues with eff3. They reduce power usage and pollution by 50%. Any reduction will mean a smaller cloud, it all depends on how much you need to reduce it by. You can go full eff3, which I do until my artillery is ranged enough, or you can do 1 eff3 and 2 PMs. Every bit helps. And yeah, I beacon my miners, why not.
I think mmmPi was trying to say (and I agree) : achieving 80% power usage reduction with eff3s costs way way more (in resources, pollution generated, power needed, ...) than with 3 eff1s.
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by mmmPI »

Indeed, i expected eff3 to not be used alone, or to be used with beacon setup, otherwise there would be no gain compared to the 90% potential reduction in energy consumption offered by efficiency module 1 for less ressources.

Efficiency module only reduce energy consumption, which in turns lower the pollution, but it is not additive with the pollution multiplier that productivity modules adds as a penalty on top of the increased energy consumption. Efficiency modules could offset entirely the effect of a speed module to achieve net speed gain without extra pollution or energy consumption but not that easily the one of a productivity module, offsetting only the energy consumption would not reduce the pollution down to as low as if no modules were used.

I would only consider placing productivity module in mining drill in order to have my ore patch last longer, and in this case i wouldn't use beacon with speed modules in them as it would defeat the purpose of placing productivity modules in the first place (imo). I would also not place efficiency module in the beacon as it would potentially reduce overall energy consumption, but only if i can guarantee the beacon effect is always active if the mining drill are depleted, and i do not change them fast enough, then the beacon would cost energy for nothing while stopped mining drill in a non-beaconned setup have a drain that is marginal.

I never encountered a situation where i would consider using speed module in beacon, and not in the mining drill where i would use efficiency module. Usually i use beacon and speed when energy is not a concern, and usually for my games when energy is not a concern, then pollution isn't a concern either because that mean i have solar pannel or nuclear and laser turret or play in peaceful mode.

This is part of why i advise to use efficiency 1 module in mining drill without beacon, or use speed module in beacon and speed modules in mining drill. Maybe i'm just not aware of a situation where my advise would not be a good advice and need to inform. I never felt it was worth attempting to reduce pollution if not for reaching the maximum reduction possible.

This doesn't apply for things like rails, modules or furnaces, in the production science pack ( purple ), those i can understand the beacon setup with speed module, and efficiency 3 in the assembly machines because you cannot use productivity module for those receipe. Beacon themselves do not produce pollution, and if you can capitalize on an already built setup to cut down on the number of assembly required, it may be done at the cost of efficiency 3 to offset the pollution so that it reaches the maximum reduction possible.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by aka13 »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:54 am
aka13 wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:33 pm
I agree on all points you present. I also agree with your mindset - I think that the way you propose is one of the most fun ways to play.
What I am complaining about, is "I can not steamroll biters and defense, although at this game stage I should be able to. "
But the point is, with your map, you can steamroll. Logistics + artillery on islands. Your water is more or less within 3 levels of artillery, so you should be able to get nearly full coverage. Defense via land mines and lasers is very doable, though unnecessary and wasteful, imho.

With artillery on islands, Biters can't path back and just get blown to oblivion. Admittedly, if you haven't set up your roboports correctly, it can be a bit tedious to do, but this is marathon...

I notice in the DLC the first picture was an 'overlord' type biter that looks like it can fly and get wet. My guess they will nerf this 'loophole' via that (one of my suggestions :)

mmPi, I'm not sure I understand your issues with eff3. They reduce power usage and pollution by 50%. Any reduction will mean a smaller cloud, it all depends on how much you need to reduce it by. You can go full eff3, which I do until my artillery is ranged enough, or you can do 1 eff3 and 2 PMs. Every bit helps. And yeah, I beacon my miners, why not.
I can, but only in small steps. I usually do so with automated vergeltungs-outpost, where I lay track until my artillery does not cover the ground anymore, plop down an automated artillery+supply outpost, and can do my other stuff.
Nevertheless, this is not the type of steamrolling I am looking for.

Also, lakes are more a problem for me, not a solution. Don't really need lakes against biters, maybe in the first 30 hours or so.

Also, I don't use laser, just seems to wasteful with all the idle consumption, and no AoE damage.
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

Koub wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:42 am
blazespinnaker wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:54 am
[mmPi, I'm not sure I understand your issues with eff3. They reduce power usage and pollution by 50%. Any reduction will mean a smaller cloud, it all depends on how much you need to reduce it by. You can go full eff3, which I do until my artillery is ranged enough, or you can do 1 eff3 and 2 PMs. Every bit helps. And yeah, I beacon my miners, why not.
I think mmmPi was trying to say (and I agree) : achieving 80% power usage reduction with eff3s costs way way more (in resources, pollution generated, power needed, ...) than with 3 eff1s.
Not with beacons and you can't mix in prod modules. Efficiency modules really shine in the SE mod, tho.
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

I never felt it was worth attempting to reduce pollution if not for reaching the maximum reduction possible.
I'm guessing you haven't completed a dw marathon megabase yet. It really is a different game. All factorio fanatics should try it at least once.

Simply slowing down pollution can be enough - depending on how the map is absorbing. You spend a lot of time hitting the p key to check on this.

Putting beacons in the middle of patches and leaving the outliers alone can balance the draw down a bit, and there's generally less idling.

These all can be tactical things, and with DW marathon you are often pushed into corners where tactics need to be used. The luxury of chosing some particular one size fits all 'best practice' you might do in vanilla - it isn't always there. For example, barreling oil is something you probably don't do very often, but it can be almost required in DW marathon if your oil patches are located in an awkward spot and you're not a fan of respawning.

Another example of a tactic is the very awkward ore patch you want to draw down as fast as possible with minimal pollution so you can build up enough firepower to take on the a biter megabase that's hovering around the patch you actually want.

These things really do happen

That said, once you get artillery, it eases up a bit and you can get away with more straightforward stuff.
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by mmmPI »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 6:10 pm
I never felt it was worth attempting to reduce pollution if not for reaching the maximum reduction possible.
I'm guessing you haven't completed a dw marathon megabase yet. It really is a different game. All factorio fanatics should try it at least once.
I did play deathworld, but in this case i don't use productivity module, nor beacon, just 3 efficiency1 in my mining drills and i spread the miner with as much distance as possible to avoid overlap.

When i go for pollution reduction i go to 80% and do not use productivity in the mining drill, nor in the furnaces i keep them for assembly machines later down the production chain.

That make the base easier to defend i guess, that's the point of the topic x).

Now you don't have to use an optimal strategy if you want to feel like you are playing a tower defense game :D

SE makes modules works completly differently and fighting biters imo is not a main features on SE so it make less sense to me to compare the defending the base in SE and in vanilla death world.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

deathworld marathon :)

dw is fairly straightforward.

also, going waterless, lots of desert, etc..

fighting biters imo is not a main features on SE? uhm, ok. You might want to actually do playthroughs before commenting too much.
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by mmmPI »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 6:27 pm
deathworld marathon :)

dw is fairly straightforward.

also, going waterless, lots of desert, etc..

fighting biters imo is not a main features on SE? uhm, ok. You might want to actually do playthroughs before commenting too much.
Please stop editing your post to add new things ?

I understand you don't want to hear divergent opinion, i used argument, i cannot do more, thank you for your opinion.

[edit : my argument about SE if not clear : SE is all about going to space where there is no biter and pollution doesn't matter ).

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

A divergent opinion is fine, but ideally it'd come from a place of some experience. DW marathon != DW, I kid you not.

As for SE, there were definitely some vita planets that have given me a rough ride. And biters on my main were a pita until I created a rather large rail perimeter for artillery to go through and keep the biters back. That was tedious, but I always wanted to try it. Of course, plaguing solves a lot, but that's mid to late game.
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by mmmPI »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:00 pm
A divergent opinion is fine, but ideally it'd come from a place of some experience. DW marathon != DW, I kid you not.

As for SE, there were definitely some vita planets that have given me a rough ride. And biters on my main were a pita until I created a rather large rail perimeter for artillery to go through and keep the biters back. That was tedious, but I always wanted to try it. Of course, plaguing solves a lot, but that's mid to late game.
I was under the same impression that you were lacking experience but i refrained saying it as i thought it doesn't serve any purpose to illustrate wether the argument and reasonning is correct. Ideally anyone would have its experience displayed so that people cannot critise or infer without any proof but that wouldn't respect the privacy i enjoy atm.

I was initially disagreeing on the saying that "not using eff3 in mining drill will make it difficult". No matter who is saying it, just looking at playthrough on youtube, albeit not representative of the best way to do, is certainly indicative that placing eff3 module in mining drill is not comon.

Most players and run of DW marathon you can see and learn from do not use EFF3 module in mining drill and justify it by the same argument that were given on this thread.

My personnal experience is not much compared to the sums of games played by other players, i could have done a mistake for many games and it wouldn't be illustrative of the best way to do things, i could do something no-one else does and it's not illustrative.

Placing efficiency module 3 in beaconed mining drill setup is not something i've heard or seen been done, and i documented quite a lot and played myself. Do you have any other way for me to believe it makes DW marathon easier than your words ? like videos of players actually doing it and not receiving feedback against doing so ? or topic in the forum where it shows how popular it is ?

https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... tstips_in/
https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... t_27k_spm/
https://factoriobin.com/post/ZfbcdorO/1
https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... s_tips_in/

Those guys certainly have more experience than me, i'd rather follow their recognized design if i had no experience. I understand your words, but i disagree and i'm not basing it on my personnal experience that could be wrong, but on rationnal argument, logic, and third party sources that received feedback on their designs.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by aka13 »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 6:10 pm
I never felt it was worth attempting to reduce pollution if not for reaching the maximum reduction possible.
I'm guessing you haven't completed a dw marathon megabase yet. It really is a different game. All factorio fanatics should try it at least once.

Simply slowing down pollution can be enough - depending on how the map is absorbing. You spend a lot of time hitting the p key to check on this.

Putting beacons in the middle of patches and leaving the outliers alone can balance the draw down a bit, and there's generally less idling.

These all can be tactical things, and with DW marathon you are often pushed into corners where tactics need to be used. The luxury of chosing some particular one size fits all 'best practice' you might do in vanilla - it isn't always there. For example, barreling oil is something you probably don't do very often, but it can be almost required in DW marathon if your oil patches are located in an awkward spot and you're not a fan of respawning.

Another example of a tactic is the very awkward ore patch you want to draw down as fast as possible with minimal pollution so you can build up enough firepower to take on the a biter megabase that's hovering around the patch you actually want.

These things really do happen

That said, once you get artillery, it eases up a bit and you can get away with more straightforward stuff.
I only play dw marathon since it got released. I stopped using eff anywhere way before that. What you describe is a very subjective experience. I rush flamers and drones as fast as I can, I never once respawned, I never once used barrreling.
Hell, I don't even turret creep and don't use combat robots.

The first time I start producing eff is when I start building spidertrons.
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

I get what you're saying, and to be honest, I don't think I've ever done anything other than eff1 in DW, and even then only a little bit, as you can pretty much just speed run to artillery / using landmines is enough.

However, I can't emphasize enough that DW marathon is a totally different game. One, I suspect, very few people have seriously attempted. And there is a reason why, it's a painful biter slog unless you are familiar with what needs to be done.

However, it's a lot of fun, and that's probably because it often forces you to think tactically, whereas the other modes are just basic production building.

As another example, shuffling around beacons and modules while shutting down other parts of your factory is definitely a useful tactic when you're up against dangerously placed biter megabases and you happen to be low on some particular resource.

as the quote goes - "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.”
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

aka13 wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:38 pm
What you describe is a very subjective experience. I never once used barrreling.
Well, I had the misfortune of the only reasonable oil patch was very close to a biter megabase. The amount of oil that would have gone into pipes would have created a cloud large enough to attract the biters. Other than barrelling, I'm not sure what choice I had.

Well, thinking about it now, I suppose I could have treated the pipeline like a very large barrel and just shut down the pumpjack once I had enough oil and the cloud was risking invasion.
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by mmmPI »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:45 pm
I get what you're saying, and to be honest, I don't think I've ever done anything other than eff1 in DW, and even then only a little bit, as you can pretty much just speed run to artillery / using landmines is enough.

However, I can't emphasize enough that DW marathon is a totally different game. One, I suspect, very few people have seriously attempted. And there is a reason why, it's a painful biter slog unless you are familiar with what needs to be done.

Another confession would be that i sometimes watch the videos of people playing death world marathon when i can't sleep and it helps me :D

I wouldn't feel the same if i were the one playing for sure, but i've seen how it looks. I'm not attempting this because it doesn't look fun for me, i'm slow , and sometimes being overly attached to detail that need fixing making me even slower.

I have done lots of combat in multiplayer game when i started, it was also a special kind of difficulty because you had random player joining in and building large furnace arrays and no-one went to do the fighting to get the ressources or increase power. This often leads to situation where you have few ore patch constantly being mined drying super fast and you never feel safe for ressources. In single player you do get more time for it provided you manage your pollution cloud and overal science progress versus pollution and expansion.

rushing flamer turret seem the go to for everyone, but then not everyone playing death world marathon goes for the same goal, between that guy who try to speedrun the deathworld marathon and that other one that try to build a megabase the reasonning are different, even in the niche settings there are different playstyle :)

( once i used barrel to turret creep it was not as good as i thought it would be :D )

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

believe it makes DW marathon easier than your word
Honestly, if you love factorio, you should just give it a try. Yes, it's very PvE, but it actually presents a lot of interesting challenges.

But don't amp up your starting area like that other guy. That really doesn't present very interesting challenges.

You know you're playing deathworld marathon when you start and there's a biter base already on your starting patch. :D
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