Defending your base is just to easy!

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sathill
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by sathill » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:54 am

Ok, first of all some good users suggest using mods. Its really good suggestion.
When you change bitters do you ever think about achievements? Some of them are time limited.
And how do you want bitters to get changed?
More hp/damage/speed/numbers?
And what that gives to us? Instead of one wall layer 3? Instead of one/two turrets layers 5-6? Seriously i just cant see what that add to game. More tedious and bigger defenses? Whats the difference how strong bitters are? Im mean defenses are quite automated. Like bots feed turrets ammo, repair them, replace them etc so what its difference how many of them are needed? Because player need more power? Nucklear reactor WTF + a lot of stored steam and no problem.
Making bitters stronger will only add more tedious and will slow down game. Making them smarter its ok, but what they can do really? Rush weakest part of defenses, or accumulate to deathball? Ok not a bad thing but i prefer to see belt compression first etc. Bugs are just bugs.

Btw. Go play crimsonland if u wanna monster shooting action with nest, perks etc. Little game but fun.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Caine » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:10 am

We do not have to look far to see how the combat can be made more interesting. Factorio is basically early game zerg vs a turtling terran. Add mutalisk harassment, overlord drops and make them expand like hell :)

I do think that biters AI should be smart enough to just run past turrets and kill the player if there is a hole in a perimeter wall instead of mounting an all out assault on the wall and turrets.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Hannu » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:14 am

5thHorseman wrote:
DustFireSky wrote:I don't understand, why players don't want it. This, what we are talking about can easily setup through a game setting. Why the hell, the users cry and say: "Please, NOT", if we can handle such things via the game options ? I don't understand these people. They can play their biter friendly setting and we our hell setting. What's the problem guys ? :geek:

Have I overlooked something or is this just: "I don't want it, nobody want it thing ?" :?
Given infinite development time, sure. But the Factorio developers don't have infinite time. Completely rewriting the biters would take a lot of time, which - considering this is not the game's main focus - is a misuse of resources.
Adjusting of settings is very easy. Just change limits, single numbers in code if the game is reasonably programmed. Adding of new adjustable variables is also very simple task, for example compared to complex graphical changes they have done in latest updates.

There are some people who want to set difficulty to highest to get feeling that they are good players and complain if the game is not easy, but I think that everyone else agree that there are no reasons to care about their complaining. There should be some kind of "impossible" setting in all games, which means that eventually player loses the game even with perfect strategy. Sometimes it is fun to lose. It is actually extremely difficult in most modern games.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Koub » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:16 am

[Koub] Reminder : in this topic, people with opposite point of views try to convince unconvincable people they are right and tho others are wrond. I'm ok with that, it's freedom pf speech. But there will be no personal attacks, so chill, and respect those who just don't agree with you. Thank you.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by DustFireSky » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:30 am

I never wrote in a community forum, where the users are 100% against a game setting. Never happens. Whatever. I give up.

New Suggestion: "Remove the Biters." :lol:

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Hannu » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:36 am

sathill wrote:Ok, first of all some good users suggest using mods. Its really good suggestion.
When you change bitters do you ever think about achievements? Some of them are time limited.
No. I do not like achievements and do not care about them. Fortunately there is easy solution for that, which is already in use. Few default settings from which player could choose and get comparable game.
And how do you want bitters to get changed?
More hp/damage/speed/numbers?
All of them would be easy to adjust. I would take AI, but it would need a huge programming work and special knowledge and is not realistic hope. Better adjustments of basic properties would be simple to implement and would not disturb anyone's experience.

Actually I hope that general development of AI would produce games which have really intelligent AI enemies and need real thinking to win during my lifetime. (I know that multiplayer is invented, but it has too much technical and social problems for me).
And what that gives to us? Instead of one wall layer 3? Instead of one/two turrets layers 5-6?
Maybe at some point it would make some other strategy more convenient. Maybe not, but it would be easy thing to test and would not change anyone's game who do not want to test it.
Making bitters stronger will only add more tedious and will slow down game.
Many people like slower and "more tedious" game. There are marathon settings, marathon mods, mods to increase complexity etc. In my opinion it is very boring to rush to rocket in few hours. Good game gives hundreds of hours of development and interesting entertainment. Sometimes I have skipped whole versions because I do not want to ruin good game in interesting phase. It has taken at most almost a year to play one game.

Everyone has own preferences and every good game give large number of settings to adjust the game. And also couple of well thought standard settings for those who want to get predefined achievements or compare their gaming with another players. I think that (almost) everyone agree that it is not good idea to increase difficulty of default settings.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by sathill » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:20 am

Ok so basicly you wanna better/harder fight with monsters, but don't wanna use mods, just play vanilla and don't care about achievements?

You know most people play vanilla for this very reason (complete steam achievements - without cheesing with easy mods)?

Ok its always good idea to make game with more options, bigger game overall. But the thing is, most people don't care about aliens. Dont care about rushing to send rocket. I belive most people care to make megafactory of logistical challenge and only what bitters contribute to this is UPS lost. Without bitters pollution do not matter and cant be disabled + all walls + turrets etc. Big ups gain.

The point is that you can write on forum to make game better/bigger like many people does with theirs ideas. But there are some priorities for devs, and not many people share yours view about hardcore aliens so its not a priority.
The other thing you can done its download some mods, that some of them actually increase bitters ai, or add giant bitter bosses, more aliens types, more weapons or turrets type, automatic droid army. Mods add many many other thing and you can do this like in 2 minutes and start having fun immediately. Most people just instantly go nuts with mods and are happy for next 100hours then get other ideas what they want to do with this game. Download different set of mods and play next 100 hours. Just like bethesda skyrim/fallout games never dies thanks to modders community.

People want some ideas/mods integrated to vanilla because of achievements and some base game to start. Some people play on one map with group of friends from work and see where this factory goes, for that its vanilla. Many mods find their way to vanilla if very good and popular.
Just threat mods as a almost endless source of "game settings". Personally i play many "maps" and use some mods, latter disable them, then run them again. Some of them seems great at first like teleports. But then i see i can just make personal locomotive with personal stations and its just design thing. Some mods are eye opener for "too much its not good".

Since you dont care about achivements or group playing why holding on with mods? Just download a lot of them and start fight for survival on alien planet like right now.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by DustFireSky » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:22 am

Thank you Hannu for your explanations! I hope the people read and understand what u have written.

That's the point. I like the challenge and the chance, that i can loose and will loose! Games with a 100% win warranty are boring. The most games, like u said, are games u cant loose (the new ones! the last 10 years). I think, u must LOOSE in order to learn something new! U must fail, to stand up. It's curious that people fear the fail. Everyday u fail at something. U do something wrong or similar. U think about it and think, how can I do it better. The most epic games in the history were really hard games. U are proud if u beat it. Today, u get the win without a special tactic. Just click play. U can't die, u autoheal and the whole crap. Every paths and use able things in the world are blinking or beat your eyes. Each boss say u which part is the weakest. Really, I hate the new games...

Maybe, I am to old. :D

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Caine » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:29 am

DustFireSky wrote:I like the challenge and the chance, that i can loose and will loose!
Losing is fun :)
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by DustFireSky » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:36 am

Brilliant :lol:

sathill
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by sathill » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:36 am

DustFireSky wrote:Thank you Hannu for your explanations! I hope the people read and understand what u have written.

That's the point. I like the challenge and the chance, that i can loose and will loose! Games with a 100% win warranty are boring. The most games, like u said, are games u cant loose (the new ones! the last 10 years). I think, u must LOOSE in order to learn something new! U must fail, to stand up. It's curious that people fear the fail. Everyday u fail at something. U do something wrong or similar. U think about it and think, how can I do it better. The most epic games in the history were really hard games. U are proud if u beat it. Today, u get the win without a special tactic. Just click play. U can't die, u autoheal and the whole crap. Every paths and use able things in the world are blinking or beat your eyes. Each boss say u which part is the weakest. Really, I hate the new games...

Maybe, I am to old. :D
Nope. You just dont know that games you are described are named roguelikes/roguelites. And factorio its sandbox game. Very simple for me. Many many excellent roguelites games in last years. In fact they made big comeback in last 5 years. If steam is your thing you will find plenty. FPS, RTS, turn based adventure and more.

The closes game you describe and have something similar with factorio seems to be "oxygen not included".

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Zavian » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:39 am

DustFireSky wrote:I never wrote in a community forum, where the users are 100% against a game setting. Never happens. Whatever. I give up.

New Suggestion: "Remove the Biters." :lol:
Well your original post in this thread was not to propose a new optional game setting but to propose changes to the existing mechanics, that would apply to all games with biters. I don't recall any post in this thread where people were opposed to adding new settings to optionally make the game harder, just that many players, myself included, like biters to be something that we need to consider and manage and deal with, but not something that is likely to defeat us.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by DustFireSky » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:46 am

@ Zavian

Right, but normally the users should read the whole thread before they post their opinions... I know the first post was a bit different.

@ sathill

I haven't a special genre. I play the games that i like or could like. The most games that I play, are not on a DRM plattform like Steam, Battlenet, Origin and so on. U know, i am a little bit older :lol:

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by sathill » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:00 pm

DustFireSky wrote:@ Zavian

Right, but normally the users should read the whole thread before they post their opinions... I know the first post was a bit different.

@ sathill

I haven't a special genre. I play the games that i like or could like. The most games that I play, are not on a DRM plattform like Steam, Battlenet, Origin and so on. U know, i am a little bit older :lol:
Ok a little offtopic.
Im also not 15 yo. I start where was no internet in my city, and remember having 318mb (not gb) hard drive and windows 3.11. shutting down windows to play games under dos for better performance.

i have some one more game suggestion for you. "Banished". Google it. You can play it without plaftorms like steam if you buy it on gog or other site like that.
Ok im ending offtopic from my side :P

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by DustFireSky » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:16 pm

Long ago in a time with the himen.sys and autoexec.bat...

Good old DOS. Believe it or not, I still use it for some games :mrgreen:

OFFTOPIC ENDS in 3.2.1

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Triaxx2 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:22 pm

Maybe a burrowing Spitter that can dive under the ground and be immune to guns, but still gets stopped by walls, it just means it gets closer before getting killed. But get's stopped by land mines. Finally a use for them.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Zavian » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:24 pm

DustFireSky wrote:@ Zavian
Right, but normally the users should read the whole thread before they post their opinions... I know the first post was a bit different.
Well in most of your posts to this thread you seem to be talking about wanting to make biters harder/more challenging/more dangerous across the board. In only one post do you even mention making it a game setting. So everybody who doesn't want more dangerous biters feels compelled to try to shoot down your arguments every time you suggest making biters harder. If you make it clear that you just want more optional settings to tweak biter hit points/damage rates/spawn rates, then most of those people won't object.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Caine » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:25 pm

DustFireSky wrote:Long ago in a time with the himen.sys
himem.sys

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Zavian » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:34 pm

My first computer was an 8088, running dos 2.11 if I recall the version correctly, back before himem.sys existed

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by DustFireSky » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:42 pm

@ Zavian

It seems to be it was my fault. Next time it will be clear, I think :mrgreen:

@ Caine

Somebody ate the half of the letter M. How could it be ?

It was "Schnappi".

Image

The little crocodile. It's a german thing and I don't know how to translate the word "Schnappi". Similar to eat something, bite u or ...

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