Defending your base is just to easy!

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mmmPI
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by mmmPI »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:08 pm
believe it makes DW marathon easier than your word
Honestly, if you love factorio, you should just give it a try. Yes, it's very PvE, but it actually presents a lot of interesting challenges.

But don't amp up your starting area like that other guy. That really doesn't present very interesting challenges.

You know you're playing deathworld marathon when you start and there's a biter base already on your starting patch. :D

I played deathworld, you can have biter base in your starting area :D

I remember playing without starting area too, but it was long time ago, i remeber rushing the light armor with handmined ore and then claiming my starting area with pockets full of fish. It was back in the day where you still had an axe you could use to kill small biters and nest.

Maybe i'll give it another try some day in the future but it's not my current mood x).

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by aka13 »

Also, I don't use mines! Not sure why, they just passed me, when they got released, so I alwayss forget they exist, until it's too late. Can't really use flamers with mines...
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by FuryoftheStars »

mmmPI wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:19 am
stopped mining drill in a non-beaconned setup have a drain that is marginal.
Isn’t it actually zero drain?
(I can’t log in to test and verify for a few days.)

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

Pumpjacks don't :)

That actually would be an absolutely perfect use case for eff3 as you want to suck out as much as possible as fast as possible and there are so few of them. I max beacon / module every last one of those.

Never done it, but after discussing it here, I can see how it would have saved my butt a bunch of times.

Actually, thinking about it now, eff3 then pm3 and sm3 might actually be your best bet after solar in DWM. Base expansion and the clouds is a huge risk factor, and maxing out your modules could seriously limit the attack surface. That'd be enough to carry you through nuclear, lasers and artillery. Might even be able to skip the first two, and go straight to artillery.

Also, btw, you want to make very extensive use of the remote with artillery. Very micro, but the 2.5x range extension is massive. Plus you can be exquisitely tactical about how you utilize your shells.
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mmmPI
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by mmmPI »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:25 am
mmmPI wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:19 am
stopped mining drill in a non-beaconned setup have a drain that is marginal.
Isn’t it actually zero drain?
(I can’t log in to test and verify for a few days.)
That is correct, the mining drill itself has no drain it's not marginal, it's null, making it even better not to beacon your mining drill setup. ( although there is a drain for inserters attached to the oupost even when said outpost is partially or fully depleted it's marginal compared to he drain a beacon setup would have ).

Pumpjacks don't have drain either. But those being infinite things are little different, you don't have to remove depleted pumpjacks and potential useless beacon due to depletion.
Actually, thinking about it now, eff3 then pm3 and sm3 might actually be your best bet after solar in DWM.
that' "might" be the case but when looking at people posting pictures of their DWM megabase or speedrun, no-one uses eff3 module which to me makes it more likely that it is not the case.

PM3 in pumpjacks are worse than SPEED3 in every aspect it's even written in the wiki : https://wiki.factorio.com/Pumpjack
If oil fields are depleted (to the minimum of 20%) speed modules are a good option to raise the pumpjacks output. With two speed module 3's the output doubles from 2 to 4 crude oil per second and even more when using additional beacons, plus another 0.5 oil per beacon per second.
None of what was said in the thread support EFF3 vs EFF1. I thought we agreed on that blazespinnaker.
Last edited by mmmPI on Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

mmmPI wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:04 am

that' "might" be the case but when looking at people posting pictures of their DWM megabase or speedrun, no-one uses eff3 module which to me makes it more likely that it is not the case.
Actually it was you who made the case! :)

From your link:

KISS: Keep It Small Silly: Yes, the factory needs to be fed, but you do NOT have the ability to do that until mid game. Overexpansion is a death sentence.
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by mmmPI »

https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... tstips_in/

This link ?

It is not talking at all about efficiency 3

instead the quote is :
Next Goal: Efficiency 1 Modules. 60-80% pollution reduction is absurd. Get it ASAP. Put it everywhere. I had 1 blue assembler making these all game, and dropped it into every slot I could.
or
KISS: Keep It Small Silly: Yes, the factory needs to be fed, but you do NOT have the ability to do that until mid game. Overexpansion is a death sentence. Serious main-bussing is going to be too spread out to handle, so make them compact and spaghetti. I set the goal of 15 science/minute and stuck with it until mid-late game when I upped it a tiny bit. Even then, I was eating 2 red belts of iron and copper by the time I got yellow science. Defenses should be 4-8 chain-inserting turrets fed from a central chest to make reloading easier. 2 gun turrets can fire almost indefinitely when chain inserting with standard inserters. Larger waves will see ammo run dry on the interior ones. Consider moving to fast inserters if you haven't replaced with flamethrowers yet.
You must not have read it properly.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

Admittedly, some of the suggestions from that link are pretty silly:
Handcraft as much as possible!: All ammo was hand crafted, which helps tip the pollution math in your favor. All red science was hand crafted until I started green science. Yes, this meant that, for awhile, I was doing nothing but hand crafting ammo and red flasks, trading off as I ran around stocking turrets (again, by hand).
You want to be doing a lot of handcrafting for sure, but handcrafting science is bonkers given crafting time costs. Just find an out of the way, ideally tree covered place by some water and dump down all your handcrafted gears, etc and assemble the science/research in labs.
mmmPI wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:11 am
You must not have read it properly.
Nah, but he's got the gist of it. Except you really really want to avoid turret usage as magazine iron consumption is brutal. Max limiting your cloud can help with that. The best way to manage pollution at the very start is to move from patch to patch, deconstructing your bases as you go. You'll be doing a lot of handcrafting anyways, so it's not a complete waste of time. You can get fairly far down the red/green tech tree just doing this, perhaps even solar.
Last edited by blazespinnaker on Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by mmmPI »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:07 am
mmmPI wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:04 am
that' "might" be the case but when looking at people posting pictures of their DWM megabase or speedrun, no-one uses eff3 module which to me makes it more likely that it is not the case.
Actually it was you who made the case! :)
From your link:
KISS: Keep It Small Silly: Yes, the factory needs to be fed, but you do NOT have the ability to do that until mid game. Overexpansion is a death sentence.
blazespinnaker wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:14 am
Admittedly, some of the suggestions from that link are pretty silly:
I'm just saying that i have never made the point that eff3 are better than eff1, my point is the contrary, and is supported by links i have posted earlier, by math, logic, reasonning, and my own personnal experience.

If you disagree with the different thread that received feedack on reddit, you should add your feedback there it would be weighted appropriatly but please don't misquote the link i posted or pretend they argue about something they don't.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

mmmPI it's all good. You make a lot of very interesting points. Again, I encourage you to try it out. It's great fun
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by jodokus31 »

Just Want to add, that 3 eff1 in miners and assembler's(esp. assembler3 with 4 modules slots) are the way to go.
eff2 could be used in pumpjacks and electric furnaces to max them out, because they only have 2 slots, but it's already quite questionable. 1 eff2 is lot more expensive than 3 eff1. (2 eff1 vs 2 eff2 is 60% vs 80%)
eff3 have some edge cases, which i don't remember.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:17 am
Just Want to add, that 3 eff1 in miners and assembler's(esp. assembler3 with 4 modules slots) are the way to go.
eff2 could be used in pumpjacks and electric furnaces to max them out, because they only have 2 slots, but it's already quite questionable. 1 eff2 is lot more expensive than 3 eff1. (2 eff1 vs 2 eff2 is 60% vs 80%)
eff3 have some edge cases, which i don't remember.
Ok, so I think the point being made here is that you don't have to use eff3. I agree with that.
Last edited by blazespinnaker on Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by mmmPI »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:23 pm
Simply looking at the energy increase cost of PM3 and SM3, it seems kinda obvious that EM3 is the only way to go if you plan on going for white science and want to minimize the PvE aspect. I'm actually a little confused why folks bother arguing against this.
Try it out and show us the resulting build, maybe it will be more convincing than just saying 5 times the same things without any better argument

Simply looking at EFF1 vs EFF3 makes no sense to use EFF3.

I'm actually a little confused why only one person keep saying it is a good idea despite widely available informations and math and reasonning explaining it's not a good idea.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

:)
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by mmmPI »

The reason for aguing is not let misleading information in a forum that is used by players to inform themselves, you admitted alreeady yourself twice that it was "maybe" not a good idea to use Eff3.

I don't think it's a good idea to start over claiming things that you admitted already were disprooved earlier.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

Here's a simple build.. a miner with a pm3, 2 beacons. filled with em3 -60%, filled with em1, +10%?

Yeah, I get that em3 is quite a bit more expensive and maybe wube should do something about that, but eventually it'll pay off.

And maybe that's the real argument here.. the pay off time on em3 is painfully long. Yeah, that's not a bad argument. But on a long enough timeline, it makes sense.
Last edited by blazespinnaker on Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by mmmPI »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:22 pm
Here's a simple build.. a miner with a pm3, 2 beacons. filled with em3 -60%, filled with em1, +10%?

Yeah, I get that em3 is quite a bit more expensive and maybe wube should do something about that, but eventually it'll pay off.
Thanks you for your convincing example.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

Honestly mmmpi, I think I see what you're trying to say, and they're good points. EM3 is painfully expensive. I hope you'll take a moment and see my side.
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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by mmmPI »

I'm just pointing out that apart from you i never heard anyone saying that EFF3 module are required to make marathon deathworld easier.

I don't think it is the case as most people i've seen commenting their attempt or in video, recommend EFF1 module that are 25 30 times cheaper, and are enough to cap the pollution bonus on mining drill.Even on my own attempt at deathworld , it seemed obvious that EFF3 module are not going to find much use. I was curious to hear you argument, but it's either " i lack experience" or "it's obvious it's the way to go", which none of them convinced me. I thought you would show me a setup in which EFF3 module would make sense to me.

You previous argument contain a mistake in the way pollution is caculated you only considered energy consumption not the additionnal pollution increase by productivity module adding efficiency module in conjunction with productivity is NOT the way to produce the least amount of pollution.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by blazespinnaker »

"required to make marathon deathworld easier"

come on man... it's just a game.

I mean, really, is that what this is about? Lol.. ok, I admit I was wrong. I should have said unless you're willing to use efficiency modules, it's going to be harder.

Though to be fair, given the base that he posed, pretty sure em3 would have been a roundoff error at that point.

I mean, what is easier and what is harder, I dunno. Seems rather subjective... which is sort of the point, right?
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