Defending your base is just to easy!

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DustFireSky
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Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by DustFireSky » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:33 pm

I love the game, but i have some problems with it or some things are totally wrong in this game.

My personal opinion:

In my ~200 hour factory at the moment, I have a Biter evolution of 99,99%.
66% through pollution and time and 33% through killing nests. The most of the biters are green.

I think, at the ~100 hours the Behemoth Biter will appear. It is sometimes different. If u build big , they came earlier through the pollution of your factory.

I personally think, that the game is just to easy to defeat the crabby aliens. The Behemoth Biter is the only one with 3000HP. That's nothing. In the lategame u have updated all your weapons and the defense, they aren't a threat for u or your base. Also if u play only with gun turrets only (For the achievement). No problem too.

I read in some patchnotes, that the HP of the behemoth biter was decreased...I think from 5000 to 3000HP. Why the hell they did that ? 50 Biters can attack u and nothing special will happen. Ok, they die, but this is nothing special. I hope u understand. The difficult of the biters must be increased, not be decreased loved developer. Just to easy to deal with it.

All aliens must be attacking simultaneous or the groups must be bigger AND they must attack like a WALL. They came to the turrets row by row. Not efficient for them. For u, okay, not for the enemy! That were a real power problem, if u build only laser turrets. Personally, I hate the laser turrets. 2 of them upgraded behind a 2 width wall killing all of the 50 Biters ALONE (row by row). They take damage, but who cares ? When u can hold up 50 Biters with TWO Turrets, the balance is the real problem of the game. Laser turrets are to strong. Flamethrower too. And just another fact. A laser turret need for ALL biter types just ONE shot to kill them, except the greens!

We have 2 options:

1. The biters must be evolving more over the time and upgrade themself and this never stops! We have a unlimited research damage tree... Biters need it too! Also the groups of the attacking biters must be more efficient! Row by row attacking isn't the answer for the biters to win a battle. They win the battle if all of them attack at once! And so should it be. The biters in the lategame are at the moment just props, not a threat!
2. The unlimited damage research must be removed and the damage must be decreased, especially the flamethrower and the laser turrets. And the power consumption of the laser turrets must be * 3. Flamethrowers need a special oil (high costs!). We have enough space to build large power sources (nuclear power), therefore increase the power consumption of the laser turrets! Laser turret spam must have consequences.

Generally:

The AI need an update. The Biters should immediately attack u, if the power is down! Player must be punished for building fails or not enough power. Also, we need more alien types. Maybe air units and maybe a special biter type (A queen or something similar) that attacks if u kill enough nests and the queen is HARDLY to kill (20000HP or more). U need some nuke's for it or tons of ammo! We have so much weapons, but the lategame is just the same shit. Sorry for that. U ran through the enemy lines and nuking all away. U can use artillery too, but u are quicker with the nukes. And nukes are just to cheap! The tank is useless in lategame play and the buggy... The best way is just running and bombing with nukes. If u do that 30 minutes, the whole map is clear. U need 300 Nukes, but is that a problem in lategames ? I think not. We need aliens that survive a nuke! Maybe the radiation (Why we havn't this in the game ?) make some types of biters strong and will be dangerous for u. ALL vehicles need a special ability. If they had that, in lategame they have their utilize. Mabye an auto marker for the artillery in the tanks range.

Maybe radiation zones in the world. U need special equipment to cross it.

I have wrote a wall of text. Sorry for that and my english. :mrgreen:

I hope the "aliens (bugs)" will be stronger. Just another fact: "Normally, we are the ALIENS in Factorio and it seems that the developer misunderstand the word if someone tell them, the aliens must be stronger. They think, ah, aliens, the player must be stronger :D! NOOOOOOOOOOO!

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Koub » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:23 pm

Play deathworld. And if deathworld is still too easy, play marathon deathworld. And if Marathon Deathworld is yet too easy, tweak the map settings to make the experience even more challenging. And if with the worst settings, you still find the game too easy, use mods that add difficulty.
And if the worst of the worst scenario is still too easy for you, then OK, you're probably too good for the game, congratz. Try with your hands handcuffed in your back, or blindfolded.

However, remember that Factorio is a game of automation, not a tower defense where you know you will be overrun sooner or later.
I personally have hard time getting to endgame even with default settings, because I'm never ready when the biters start attacking. My pollution always attract them before I can defend efficiently. I know I'm unskilled. But I don't think I'm an exception in the 1M+ player base Factorio has. Why make the game unplayable to the immense majority just to please the top 1% hardcore gamers ?
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Acacel » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:55 pm

Well I also think it´s easy to hold your lines after you have your normal research done, but I think for those of us who really need a more challenging game, they made the Deathworld setting (and the option to set the starting bitters to very much)

But i also agree with you some stronger bitter that comes after the green ones would be really nice

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by DustFireSky » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:13 pm

Koub wrote:not a tower defense
Maybe, but the aliens are still in there and the turrets exists too. Why not ? I could also say to you play without the aliens. You have the option to do that. If the biters are to hard, play without it or lower the settings. I think the answer is not satisfying for you.It doesn't solve the problem that I explained. U wouldn't like play without the biters, right ? If u play over hundreds of hours u know how to build your base and know, when the biters are coming. U know, what u need to research. The problem is, that experienced players get bored. That is the point.

And mass of overkill weapons in a game without a real enemy is just useless. Why we have the weapons ? Why we have so many types of it if the aliens are just props ? When the developer think the same, why we have aliens and the weapons ? I know the focus of the game is the automation part. But without an enemy the game is just another industry giant game or railroads 2.0 (simplified). U know, i love the game, but i made some suggestions like the queen or similar. I don't understand why u tell me, play deathworld, when the problem still exists there ? I know u are joking at the last part. :lol: :mrgreen:

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by cpy » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:57 pm

Use mods, simple as that. Or try deathworld.
You play on easy difficulty and complain about it being easy. Beat marathon deathworld first, complain later.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by quyxkh » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:28 pm

So, there's more than enough firepower to make a full-auto defense, you can play with lots of different kinds of weapons but once you understand how things work fighting and expansion isn't hard at all, and by endgame it's not even really a factor (especially now with the artillery turrets).

Okay.

Could there perhaps be other things the game and its devs and players are more focused on, more interested in, that are the point of it, the main event? Maybe the fighting's not supposed to be more than a diversion, a little mild backpressure to put some constraints on your gadgetry?

Perhaps there's mods to make more challenging biter behavior for any who want that?

Or other settings that slow down your tech-tree walk so you're not so far ahead of the biters while expanding?

It's also possible that you really want more of a fighting game. Factorio's not that, not a fighting game. It's not even a fighting game with some gadgets for mood-setting and variety. It's a gadget game with some fighting for mood-setting and variety. The focus is on the gadgets and what you can build with them, not the fighting and what you can kill. If you want a fighting game with opponents that will make you feel like Ender Wiggin or maybe Admiral Caine, play AI War, the whole ball of wax is <$5 on sale, as it is on Steam atm. But the Rampant mod I linked, on a marathon deathworld, might be enough to slake the bloodlust.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Koub » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:44 pm

DustFireSky wrote: I know u are joking at the last part. :lol: :mrgreen:
When I said I found it difficult to resist to the biters even on default settings, I wasn't lying. I'm just bad at everything including combat. So adding biter difficulty would force me to play in peaceful, because then it would not just be hard, but impossible for me to play with biters.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Triaxx2 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:18 pm

You might also want to combine Bob's Mods into the mix, because it does work well with Rampant, and gives more variety in the biters, including elemental ones as well as much tougher elemental spawners.

@Koub: Think guns. Start your third research as turrets, and set them up so they cover each other. Walls a space or two away, and robo-ports covering them as soon as you have them available. Make your base perimeter a loose ring of two layers of gun turrets. That way even if melee biters get up close, then the second rank of turrets can hose them off the front ones. Leave open spaces in the walls with extra turrets, the biters will head there and get hosed down by multiple turrets. Dragons teeth, one wall surrounded by eight spaces, then another wall. You want just one empty space between but they should overlap. The little biters take longer to path through, and the bigger ones get stuck chewing through the walls, and get killed by turrets. The phrase that applies is Defense in Depth allows Defeat in Detail.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by DustFireSky » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:42 pm

Interesting. :? How can users know, which setting i have chosen ? Who said, that i played on easy ? I not!

But the combat is a part of the game. If it is not, why is it into the game ? I hate these discussions. I make some suggestions and the users tell me, that is not a combat or fighting game. Oh jesus. :shock: I know that! But that isn't an argument, when the game has this part! The game "Anno" isn't a combat game too, but it has this part also in it and a good one! Factorio without the Biters were not the game, that i love to play! Just make a great factory isn't a thing, that will be motivate u forever.

That is shitty talk in my opinion. Sorry.

Mods aren't a thing for me. Mod's have the big problem, that the GUI style will be destroyed through the mods. All of the added stuff feels wrong (overpowered stuff, items (GUI) are to different, for me it feels wrong. Not compatible with the vanilla style in my opinion). If u use different mods... these problems will be destroy the game experience. But... mostly one mod is enough to reach that point. The items are not in the style of the vanilla game and other stuff. If u update the game, the mods doesn't work anymore. That is something, that i don't like.
I saw mods with ion canons and similar things where I think: "The vanilla game is just overpowered with the vanilla weapons. What is the game with these kind of mods ? Godlike overpowered! :mrgreen:

Deathworld or not is indifferent, because in the lategame it doesn't matter! That is the point i am talking to you! It is difficult to find the right words in English for me. Sorry for that, but lategame is just lame. Deathworld, Marathon, Railworld... it doesn't matter. At the lategame u are an overpowered hero with a nuke launcher :D One Nuke for each Biter eye.... U have it, u can it. Is it a challenge ? NO, it's not! That I have criticized.

Another part is the triste world. Yeah, they did a good job with the decals. But we have no animals! The weather is also a part of the game, but we have always sunshine and few clouds. Where is the rain, snow, ion storms, lightning, acid rain, black rain ?

@ Koub

No, I meant the part

"Try with your hands handcuffed in your back, or blindfolded" :lol:

@ ALL

Do not take it personally! :P

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by pulzar » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:23 pm

Mods aren't a thing for me. Mod's have the big problem, that the GUI style will be destroyed through the mods. All of the added stuff feels wrong (overpowered stuff, items (GUI) are to different, for me it feels wrong. Not compatible with the vanilla style in my opinion). If u use different mods... these problems will be destroy the game experience. But... mostly one mod is enough to reach that point
I used to feel like that... then, one day, I decided to try some, and I'm really glad I did. They are exactly what you need to keep the game interesting beyond 1000 hours, and to tweak the game in just the way you want it. You seem like the perfect candidate for it -- you want more biter challenge, and there are mods for that. So, try them out! For me, I'm so tired of biters that I just play peaceful mode, and that's mostly out of inertia from the time when you needed biters to get advanced science. I should really just disable them altogether.
Just make a great factory isn't a thing, that will be motivate u forever.
Different things motivate different people. To me, making a massive factory that works well and pumps out rockets at high speed is quite fun, and mods that reduce the tedium (long reach, farl, for example) are great. Having a playthrough with all of Bob's and Angel's mods was quite fun, too, adding a whole next level of complexity. I don't know if it'll motivate me forever, but apart from Civ games, there's no other game that kept me playing it for this long.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by PurpleGreen » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:57 pm

DustFireSky wrote:Interesting. :? How can users know, which setting i have chosen ? Who said, that i played on easy ? I not!

But the combat is a part of the game. If it is not, why is it into the game ? I hate these discussions. I make some suggestions and the users tell me, that is not a combat or fighting game. Oh jesus. :shock: I know that! But that isn't an argument, when the game has this part! The game "Anno" isn't a combat game too, but it has this part also in it and a good one! Factorio without the Biters were not the game, that i love to play! Just make a great factory isn't a thing, that will be motivate u forever.

That is shitty talk in my opinion. Sorry.

Mods aren't a thing for me. Mod's have the big problem, that the GUI style will be destroyed through the mods. All of the added stuff feels wrong (overpowered stuff, items (GUI) are to different, for me it feels wrong. Not compatible with the vanilla style in my opinion). If u use different mods... these problems will be destroy the game experience. But... mostly one mod is enough to reach that point. The items are not in the style of the vanilla game and other stuff. If u update the game, the mods doesn't work anymore. That is something, that i don't like.
I saw mods with ion canons and similar things where I think: "The vanilla game is just overpowered with the vanilla weapons. What is the game with these kind of mods ? Godlike overpowered! :mrgreen:

Deathworld or not is indifferent, because in the lategame it doesn't matter! That is the point i am talking to you! It is difficult to find the right words in English for me. Sorry for that, but lategame is just lame. Deathworld, Marathon, Railworld... it doesn't matter. At the lategame u are an overpowered hero with a nuke launcher :D One Nuke for each Biter eye.... U have it, u can it. Is it a challenge ? NO, it's not! That I have criticized.

Another part is the triste world. Yeah, they did a good job with the decals. But we have no animals! The weather is also a part of the game, but we have always sunshine and few clouds. Where is the rain, snow, ion storms, lightning, acid rain, black rain ?

@ Koub

No, I meant the part

"Try with your hands handcuffed in your back, or blindfolded" :lol:

@ ALL

Do not take it personally! :P
Rampant doesn't add any items, it just changes the AI

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Spatial » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:37 pm

I feel like the game got drastically easier in 0.16 compared to 0.15 when I first played it. On my first time playing the biters would expand right up the wall and would invade within minutes if power failed on the lasers. Some of the turrets were up to 5000+ kills. The second time, after patching to 0.16, I wanted a bigger challenge so I started a deathworld game and didn't use lasers at all. Despite that it was drastically easier. Even after 100 hours there is basically no danger, and this is supposed to be the hard mode?

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by DustFireSky » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:19 pm

Absolutely right Spatial.

The game is just imbalanced. The turrets make to much damage OR the biters have to few HP. Choose one of it. How I said, no threat.

I personally would do the following:

Some biters get minimal damage by gun turrets and are susceptible to laser turrets. Some of them are only beatable through flamethrower or get minimal damage through the other options. These would prevent to build lines of just laser turrets :mrgreen: U need all of them to be save. My suggestion. We need a mix of each of it. Only build laser turrets must fail! :twisted: :mrgreen:

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Zavian » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:22 pm

Spatial wrote:I feel like the game got drastically easier in 0.16 compared to 0.15 when I first played it. On my first time playing the biters would expand right up the wall and would invade within minutes if power failed on the lasers. Some of the turrets were up to 5000+ kills. The second time, after patching to 0.16, I wanted a bigger challenge so I started a deathworld game and didn't use lasers at all. Despite that it was drastically easier. Even after 100 hours there is basically no danger, and this is supposed to be the hard mode?
I think at least part of that might be the changes to map generation. Personally I'm not really happy with what I consider the lack of variation between different map settings. They all feel much the same in 0,16, when the very point of having different biter and ore spawn settings is to generate different types of maps, for different gameplay experiences.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by sicklag » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:56 pm

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Last edited by sicklag on Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by DustFireSky » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:52 pm

Long ago I played the campaign. Maybe u are right. Don't know. I forgot it :mrgreen: I thought we are the aliens :?

PS: I cant move it. Maybe our KOUB Moderator :mrgreen:

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by sicklag » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:21 pm

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Last edited by sicklag on Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Koub » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:20 pm

Actually, I think the OP posted his topic in the right place. It has one foot in the Idea and suggestion domain, one in the balancing domain, and one in the General discussion domain (thus the Alien aspect ^^).
I think The Ideas & Suggestions subforum is better suited to precise suggestion, this is more like an open discussion.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by DustFireSky » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:31 pm

Ahhh, 3 in 1. I am great :mrgreen: :lol: Maybe i create a special suggestion posting. I think about it. If I write some english texts , i need much time for it... :( Ah, why isn't english my native language... grrrr

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Re: Defending your base is just to easy!

Post by Triaxx2 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:39 pm

I have often exhausted myself attempting to explain mods as they relate to various games, and have come to the conclusion the best thing I can do is this: If the base game is a meal, then mods are the condiments. They are unnecessary to play the game, but are available to spice the game to your liking. Yes, it's true many of them can be overpowered, but as you said yourself, the late game is the home of overpowered players.

When adding mods, it's up to you to balance what mods do to your game. There's an idea that a vanilla game should be perfect, and yet, your ideas of a perfect game are different from mine. For me, I don't like power armor. Instead I prefer to drive the vehicles, so Vehicle Grid is great for me, so I can strap power armor gear into my tank and race around at high speed, nigh invulnerable to spitters, hosing them down with my machine gun. My personal train has a lot of legs in it, and rockets around the map very, very fast, running on coal. (Rocket Fuel is frightening.)

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