0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

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What do you think about the removal of fluid wagon being able transport 3 separate fluids feature?

Removal was unnecessary and I think it should be brought back.
40
23%
Removal was justified and feature should stay removed.
72
42%
Feature should make a comeback in a different form (ideas like "permanently separated", "standalone 1-fluid and 3-fluid wagons" etc.)
59
35%
 
Total votes: 171

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SeigneurAo
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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by SeigneurAo »

For the sake of centralization and further discussion (since this thread is mainly aiming at having a poll) :
Fluid wagon and barrels balancing

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by Cleany »

Tricorius wrote:I have heard a lot of comments like “the community clearly feels...” or other variations of this based on content in these forums. It’s simply not a good indicator of the overall player base. That is all I’m saying.
Unsubstantiated statements aren't the best way to counter unsubstantiated statements.

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by Tricorius »

Cleany wrote:
Tricorius wrote:I have heard a lot of comments like “the community clearly feels...” or other variations of this based on content in these forums. It’s simply not a good indicator of the overall player base. That is all I’m saying.
Unsubstantiated statements aren't the best way to counter unsubstantiated statements.
1,000,000 / 90 = 0.00009

Substantive enough for you?

/shrug

-- sources --
https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-192
the number of submitted poll results (90 as of this post)

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by Koub »

Tricorius wrote:1,000,000 / 90 = 0.00009
I'm pretty sure a small error has creeped in your advanced calculations. :mrgreen:
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by Cleany »

He didn't understand my post.

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by Tricorius »

Entirely possible on both accounts. I’m kinda running on NyQuil... so ... /shrug

Edit: haha! So ... order of arithmetic is often important. :: cough ::

And if I missed the point of the commentary about substantivity, well I’m still blaming that on the NyQuil and I might have to be enlightened.
Last edited by Tricorius on Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by The_Dark_Nate »

kovarex wrote:Thanks for the report, I solved this bug for the next version by removing the feature of disconnecting wagon parts and so this gui won't exist anymore.
This would be like selling your car because it had a punctured tire.

I never really post, and since I started playing factorio 2 years ago, whenever gaming discussions take place, I've always pointed out factorio to anyone that will listen (I've driven about 20+ purchases of the game).

I dont explicitly use the split fluid wagon regularly, and it being removed isnt the issue for me.

My issue is: The above quoted comment basically says to me "We cant be bothered to fix the issue, so we're just gonna get rid of the feature".

If the quote had read something like: "Unfortunately the split-fluid wagon functionality is going to be removed due to a redesign of trains, therefore this bug will no longer be applicable in the next version. See the Roadmap here (link)", then I dont think this would have blown up like it has.

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by Tricorius »

Also, in the holiday spirit I should probably mention that as far as solutions go, I rather prefer having two separate fluid cars. One with a single tank, and one with three isolated, individual tanks.

I think most of the logic should already exist for this. However, it does require a lot more code to be maintained, including UI/UX and developer debt. So it isn’t a free feature at all (though no feature ever is). I’m not sure if this particular code has been difficult to maintain. But it sounds like it was for some reason.

A single tanker, with a 25k capacity, split into three compartments is mathematically...strange though. Even if it were a 50k capacity tanker, the 3 way split is the awkward part, I’d think.

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by 5thHorseman »

There was no option for "I don't develop games or have any idea how to balance workload vs desired features vs game balance vs enjoyment" so I abstained from voting.
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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by Cleany »

Tricorius wrote:I might have to be enlightened.
Tricorius wrote:I have heard a lot of comments like “the community clearly feels...” or other variations of this based on content in these forums.
Unsubstantiated statement.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as someone once said.

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by Cleany »

5thHorseman wrote:There was no option for "I don't develop games or have any idea how to balance workload vs desired features vs game balance vs enjoyment" so I abstained from voting.
That is this option: Removal was justified and feature should stay removed.

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by Tricorius »

Cleany wrote:
Tricorius wrote:I might have to be enlightened.
Tricorius wrote:I have heard a lot of comments like “the community clearly feels...” or other variations of this based on content in these forums.
Unsubstantiated statement.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as someone once said.

Fair enough. I don’t have the time to go collect various posts from the forums to substantiate the claim. And, honestly, I don’t really care that much.

Hakuna Matata

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by Daz3 »

Can't actually say I used the split tanks myself. Didn't need to as I processed oil to solid products or into barrels before moving it. I was, however, planning a very modular factory which might have found it useful...

Think about this setup;

Acid for batteries and processor boards and minning.
Lube for electric motors and express belts.
Heavy/light oil for flame turrets.

That's three fluids, now consider that you might want to move crude oil and water. Maybe you want to move gas to your factory, rather than bring coal to your refinary and then plastic out? Either we have a very big train or lots of small ones... Or we can't play the game that way...

As an alternarive, perhaps a 'smaller' fluid wagon with three, always seperate, 10k tanks? The single wagon could be 25k or even 50k, whichever suits balance better, with a reduced weight to make the possibly longer trains less of a pain?

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by Caine »

Daz3 wrote:As an alternarive, perhaps a 'smaller' fluid wagon with three, always seperate, 10k tanks? The single wagon could be 25k or even 50k, whichever suits balance better, with a reduced weight to make the possibly longer trains less of a pain?
I found this post on reddit (link: https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... _in_fluid/:
DominikCZ wrote:Sure, but with anything there are always people who miss it, unless it is done really perfectly.
We had some discussion about the always separated wagons and still the simple solution of having it connected prevails. Generally I agree that simple solutions are better and the benefit here is really small. If someone really needs to transport 3 different fluids in one train, which is not frequent need, they can use 3 wagons, or barrels. It does not warrant complicating the game for everybody else.
This Dominik claims to be one of the devs which I cannot verify, but if this guy is legit then it does not seem likely.

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by Koub »

Caine wrote:This Dominik claims to be one of the devs which I cannot verify
I guess it's our Dominik
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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by Cleany »

Daz3 wrote:Didn't need to as I processed oil to solid products or into barrels before moving it.
Though I use the new fluid tanks, I was never fussed as I really enjoyed the barrel mechanic and the challenges it involved.

Someone said something about using fluid tanks to move acid for uranium mining. That seems crazy! Barrels is much more practical, and it's fun getting it right.

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by Daid »

Note, I'm fine with the dev removing it. As I've only used it once. But my use isn't fixable by barreling. I was transporting raw oil from a distant off-site to my main base, and using 1 of the 3 tanks to transport steam back to the offsite base to power it, which worked surprisingly well.

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by MeduSalem »

I'm fine with the removal of the feature as well.

The way it was it somehow turned out as an over-engineered solution for the trivial community request of just having a simple fluid wagon.

So I never used the fluid wagon seperation anyways because there never seemed to be a point where it comes in handy.

Even if I produce several different fluids in one centralized spot they are mostly used in different quantities anyways which are easier handled by having dedicated trains delivering them because it matches the actual use of each fluid much closer.

And if I would ever have to share one train for different fluids then I would use dedicated wagons for each fluid anyways because of easier station design (less prone to making wrong pipe connections), but I never had that case yet.

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by inteljoe »

Tricorius wrote:
Cleany wrote:Moreover, the very fact the the devs have created a forum for an alpha game, that includes polls, tells you quite clearly that it is a tool that should, at least, be considered.

Further to this, what point is there, even if there is no hope at all of any change, in objecting to a discussion about it - if only to let a fellow player let off some steam given that many hours have been put into the game?
Yup. I’m not opposed to sharing thoughts and feelings. But I have heard a lot of comments like “the community clearly feels...” or other variations of this based on content in these forums. It’s simply not a good indicator of the overall player base. That is all I’m saying.
Well said.

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Re: 0.16 Fluid wagon separation feature removal POLL

Post by Serenity »

Cleany wrote:Someone said something about using fluid tanks to move acid for uranium mining. That seems crazy! Barrels is much more practical, and it's fun getting it right.
It's very easy to control how much acid is moved in and out of trains. You don't need to move around a full tank

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