Belt compression in 0.16

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evilbrain
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Belt compression in 0.16

Post by evilbrain » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:54 am

Due to removal of undergound belt compression trick I would like to offer you a combinator based alternative.

A little bit of theory:
1. Each belt tile has 32 slots.
2. Each item takes 9 slots on a belt.
3. Yellow belt advances 1 slot forward every game cycle (2 for red, 3 for blue).

The trick to compress a belt is to put items on every 9'th slot of the belt. This way you will have gaps that are divisble by 9, therefore they can always be filled with items.
To achieve this all your inserters should be enabled once every 9 cycles and offset according to their position along the belt.

You will need a combinator setup that cycles a signal from 0 to 8 every frame and inserter conditions set to 'signal = 32*x mod 9' (where x is belt tile number). The pattern repeats itself every 9 tiles.
Here are the numbers:
yellow belt offsets.png
yellow belt offsets.png (5.18 KiB) Viewed 12597 times
Here is a blueprint string for a smelter that compresses a yellow belt. Use right lane for input
With this particular setup you will get very rare gaps because one side of the belt uses long inserters to grab the ore so it gets a little advantage over the other. This should not be the problem if your setup is symmetrical.

This will be a little different for red belt. Because it moves 2 slots a frame the pattern will repeat itself every 18 tiles instead of 9 and inserters can only be placed on tiles with offset divisible by 2.
For blue belt pattern goes back to 9 tiles, but you can only place inserters on tiles with offset divisible by 3.

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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by sicklag » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:49 pm

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Last edited by sicklag on Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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impetus maximus
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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by impetus maximus » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:40 am

sicklag wrote:It would be nice to see a picture of the blueprint/build.

The belt compression in 0.16 is really bad, but I never would use your "trick". Idk but that's a lil bit too much just to compress a belt(for me).
The old version of belt compression was much better and as for me( a semi-noob I come in big struggle with the new system--->fun down).
Maybe we have to life with it and have to use tricks like yours. :( Or the devs will rework :geek: that or someone make a mod :cry:
evilbrain smelter image
the devs are aware of the belt compression issue, and will be addressing it.
try to be patient with them. they have a lot on their plate with this release.

sicklag
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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by sicklag » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:50 am

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Last edited by sicklag on Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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impetus maximus
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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by impetus maximus » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:02 am

you are welcome. :)

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disentius
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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by disentius » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:18 pm

belttimertest.gif
belttimertest.gif (557.3 KiB) Viewed 11947 times
You, Sir, are a genius :)

Code: Select all

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

vtx
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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by vtx » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:01 am

Or simply use the easy road and use @Klonan mod belt buffer, with luck it will make it's way to vanilla.

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Klonan/belt_buffer

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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by Grooohm » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:36 pm

Thanks!!
https://i.imgur.com/0vgl4xL.png

https://pastebin.com/E5gyVvnD

That was my attempt: Don't ask me about the math... that was trial & error:
count up to 45
first inserter n=1
2nd inserter n=24
3rd inserter n=4
stack size overwrite = 5

sooo, i managed to unload a 1-2 train to 6 fully compressed blue belts
https://i.imgur.com/0uigtlg.png
https://pastebin.com/g43iBwKX

keep in mind that the "overwrite stack size" number will be lost after reloading a savegame in 0.16.6 (viewtopic.php?f=30&t=55397)

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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by PacifyerGrey » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:27 pm

Grooohm wrote:Thanks!!
https://i.imgur.com/0vgl4xL.png

https://pastebin.com/E5gyVvnD

That was my attempt: Don't ask me about the math... that was trial & error:
count up to 45
first inserter n=1
2nd inserter n=24
3rd inserter n=4
stack size overwrite = 5

sooo, i managed to unload a 1-2 train to 6 fully compressed blue belts
https://i.imgur.com/0uigtlg.png
https://pastebin.com/g43iBwKX

keep in mind that the "overwrite stack size" number will be lost after reloading a savegame in 0.16.6 (viewtopic.php?f=30&t=55397)
That is what I call creative!

mozair
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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by mozair » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:49 pm

this is awesome, i'm actually loving that belts are harder to compress now... undergrounds always felt too cheaty

hoping devs don't ever fully "fix" it so we get to keep seeing cool stuff like this instead

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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by TheRaph » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:41 pm

vtx wrote:Or simply use the easy road and use @Klonan mod belt buffer, with luck it will make it's way to vanilla.

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Klonan/belt_buffer
I also like to have it in the vanilla game :)

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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by looney » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:19 pm

Start with a compressed yellow belt and you don't seem to need circuit conditions. Though only every 3rd inserter does anything...
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=54627&start=60#p326885

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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by golfmiketango » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:39 am

It doesn't help that 0.16 suffers from similar splitter bugs to 0.15, but, worse, when it comes to merging two lanes down to one (just try experimenting with fully compressed, fully consumed belts and the more interesting wiki balancers and you'll see what I mean).

However, I learned my lesson in 0.15: I'm going to defer any bug-report about this until all major changes to belt dynamics are implemented and several revisions have passed on top of that (maybe fortune smiles on us and those issues get ironed out in the process anyhow).

aober93
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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by aober93 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:30 pm

I think side loading should compress. Because it makes transport worse over distance, much like loosing compression in corners.
But the inserter compression is different. Im not sure but its so basic of a gameplay, it should compress as well. I dont think the combinator solution is gonna do it, because it has to be tuned for any tech advance, except you do it only lategame. Only the splitter merge is viable really-

And i wouldnt prefer inserter compression if it compromises optimizations

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disentius
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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by disentius » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:44 pm

6 belt unloader.gif
6 belt unloader.gif (708.94 KiB) Viewed 9891 times
AAAnd another unloading station.
I love the fact that timing lets me remove all splitters/mergers/undergrounds and what have you.
It shouldn't work - i cant figure out the math - but it does (in 15.40 anyway)

Blueprint:

Code: Select all

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Grooohm
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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by Grooohm » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:03 am

I made a spreadsheet to calculate the right offsets and loop times:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... D5MwU/copy

The default values in the spreadsheet give you this: https://imgur.com/a/MKlpm https://pastebin.com/WsKhRpW3

That lets you do intersting things:
2 full blue belts of plastic: https://imgur.com/a/tJRRe https://pastebin.com/VzSsNiH8
2 full belts of gears: https://imgur.com/a/jGDPA https://pastebin.com/4mKfbyxJ

or more useless things, like these electric furnaces: https://imgur.com/a/oyTpA https://pastebin.com/SCpctckQ

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impetus maximus
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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by impetus maximus » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:04 am

disentius wrote:
The attachment 6 belt unloader.gif is no longer available
AAAnd another unloading station.
I love the fact that timing lets me remove all splitters/mergers/undergrounds and what have you.
It shouldn't work - i cant figure out the math - but it does (in 15.40 anyway)
are those belts backed up down the line? here is my result of that blueprint. [edit] oh that is from 0.15.40
gaps.png
gaps.png (137.64 KiB) Viewed 6689 times

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disentius
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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by disentius » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:45 pm

Thanks, Grooohm! That helps a lot.

unload 6 blue belts compressed.PNG
unload 6 blue belts compressed.PNG (2.65 MiB) Viewed 5726 times
Here is a 16.27 16.25 version with another trick to compress stuff.
Added remarks:
- No solution for uneven belt backup. (Balancers not included)
- Only tried with full stack bonus reseach.
- Not tested in other configuration
That said:
6 fully compressed blue belts. Small train, small station. Fast unloading. No combinators :)
[EDIT:] Added remarks from Impetus. TY!
blueprint
Last edited by disentius on Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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impetus maximus
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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by impetus maximus » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:49 am

disentius, that is clever and works well when the stack inserters have a bonus ≥ 6, and the belts have no backup.
the red wires are just connected to the chests/poles, correct? i assume for count tracking. [edit] or left over. :P

i think you mean 0.16.25
also noticed your code tag is a little off. ;)

cheers

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disentius
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Re: Belt compression in 0.16

Post by disentius » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:56 am

disentius, that is clever and works well when the stack inserters have a bonus ≥ 6, and the belts have no backup.
the red wires are just connected to the chests/poles, correct? i assume for count tracking. [edit] or left over. :P

i think you mean 0.16.25
also noticed your code tag is a little off. ;)
Thanks Imp. Added your remarks to post.
Correct, the red wires are station generic. image is part of my station blueprint library

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