My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

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Jap2.0
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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by Jap2.0 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:53 pm

Zavian wrote:First, I'm pretty sure no-one has launched a rocket in 0.15 in 2 hrs. The only player I'm aware of to launch a rocket in 2 hr in 0.14 is anti-elite, who used a known seed with lots of ore patches. ie far from default settings.

Next I would ditch RSO. It sounds like it is just making your life harder. If you play on vanilla defaults there will normally be several iron ore patches within belt range of your starting location.
Also, you can't get vanilla achievements with mods - and the guide is supposed to be about the achievement, and using a specific map without RSO.
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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by stevendesu » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:46 pm

I just followed this tutorial (using the same map, same blueprint, following the instructions for Bootstrapping, Red-Green, Blue, "The Owl", and Finishing Up) and I came in at 8:55:37 -- too long for the achievement, but not bad for a first try with no saving/reloading, and I admittedly made a decent number of mistakes (didn't notice some missing inserters, wasn't ALWAYS crafting something, hand-crafted a lot of electric miners instead of using the automatically produced ones, etc)

Through my trials an tribulations I found a few ways that I think the run can be improved.

For starters, the absolute BIGGEST waste of time in my run was waiting for green science. With a production rate of 6 seconds per one and only 4 assemblers, we're getting one green science every 1.5 seconds. With early research taking 5, 10, or 15 seconds per research attempt, this means we're keeping up with 3, 6, or 10 labs -- that 3 and 6 meant a LOT of waiting. Around the 1:30:00 mark I had built out 10 of the labs, but I didn't have advanced oil processing until the 3:00:00 mark because I was only running 3 of the labs at a time. This problem only got worse. By the 4:00:00 mark I had built out the entire factory (every assembler, inserter, and transport belt was in its place) but I was slowly meandering towards Concrete while still severely lacking in green science. I ended up building four additional green science producers in a corner of the factory and dumping the output in a chest to feed onto the central science transport belt.

Beyond that, I think there are some modifications to be made to the research order. You learn solar energy very early on, but it takes 250 research attempts at 30 seconds each. Even if all 10 labs had been running at peak efficiency, this would have been a 12.5 minute wait, all to research a material that isn't used as an intermediary for anything else, so we can dump it in a chest and ignore it for the next several hours. By building out Advanced Material Processing or Flammables earlier I could have gotten some more assemblers up and running instead of having empty buildings sitting around waiting for instruction.

I also noticed there were some things being over-produced and a few things being underproduced to keep up with demand. The greatest over-production offenders were ores (the belts coming out of the mine will randomly stop and start, indicating that the ore isn't being used as quickly as it's being produced) and plastic (I filled two chests with excess plastic and the lower of the two chemical plants still never got an opportunity to dump its plastic on the transport belt since the one above it was meeting the demand solo. Not having to make those extra mines, or that extra chemical plant, or the extra pipes and transport belts, could shave some time off the run.

Finally, a bit more pictures in the instructions could be nice. Instructions like "Your first priority is to build a new source of iron" doesn't tell me WHERE to build this new source of iron, so I stare at the map and guess. I ended up building the mines and furnaces for the steel production line before building the iron mine in the north, which meant a lot of time spent pulling iron plates out of furnaces and manually building with them.

All in all it's not a bad tutorial, but after the 4:00:00 mark when I had built the entire factory I was just running back and forth looking for bottlenecks to try and fix or improve and spent the next 5 hours waiting for research to complete slowly, because I couldn't run all 20 labs at once with the limited science production. A better spoon run would probably seek to build out labs in the "ideal" ratio:

5 red packs, 6 green packs, 12 blue packs, 5 grey packs, 7 purple packs, 7 yellow packs, and ~15 labs (these rates produce 1 pack per second and consume roughly 1 pack per second on average across all research, with some research consuming packs every 5 seconds and some consuming every 60)

It also might not hurt to put chests at the red and green science output like you do with the others so that you can stockpile if you overproduce.

Just some suggestions for possible improvements. I know it was pretty disappointing when I built out the entire factory and spend 4 and a half hours watching research tick by and knowing there was almost nothing I could do to speed it up. Every second I was just staring into space wondering why I wasn't building a rocket yet.

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by stevendesu » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:16 pm

Neglected to mention in my post the sources of underproduction.

The worst offender were the green circuits feeding into the processor / speed module line. The green circuits usually didn't reach the lowest processor assembler.

When I went to hand-craft some efficiency modules for all of my labs (along with the four efficiency 3's for the silo) I found myself needing over a thousand circuits, but my factory wasn't outputting any to spare -- so I was scooping up iron plates and copper plates and crafting from the ground up, which meant I spent around a half-hour just hand-crafting green circuits. Something that my factory was creating so I should have been able to dump some extras in a chest, but instead I sat around making them by hand because there simply weren't enough.

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by Koub » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:29 pm

Current speedrun record with 0.15 is just above 3 hours (for the record).
https://www.speedrun.com/Factorio#Any
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by Ph03n1xFC » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:36 pm

D0SBoots wrote: Produce only one iron axe; save the other 4 plates. Place your initial drill on the iron patch and the furnace next to it. Cut a tree (that's marked for destruction) to provide fuel for both, and then go north and mine 5 stone. Build a furnace with that (in general, turn all stone into furnaces as soon as possible), and go back to the miner. You should have enough iron to build another drill, which will go on the coal on the other side of the furnace.
I'm playing on version 0.15.40 and I always end up with 7 iron plates after mining the stone. Did they change something regarding fuel/fuel consumption?

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by LeGourmand » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:06 pm

Thanks to this guide I manage a 6:29 on my first try, no reloading. on 0.15.40
Image

I mostly followed the blueprint and the RESEARCH ORDER list. I did not follow the other instructions.

I seriously lacked blue science, but maybe I started that a bit late. So I ended up growing the blue science a little for the last few research and I hand fed the copper and iron.

On that note, I did a bunch of extra burner mining drill and stone furnace below the oil. The green circuit was always running low of iron and the copper was too low for the battery. I was using assembly level 2 and speed module to keep up with the blue circuit demand

At the end, I was missing some Speed modules and blue circuits for the Rocket Control Unit. I built more of both and extra green circuits where the blue, purple and military science were located.

I had an issue loading stuff in the silo, the inserter had rocket full, but was already full of those, so it couldn't pick up the Rocket Control Unit. for that reason, I would suggest splitting that lane into two different chests with filter inserter.

I'll join my replay even if it's not perfect because finding 0.15.27 to load D0SBoots replay is not possible anymore.
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ThereIsNoSpoon-replay.zip
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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by Ghost-in-the-Machine » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:20 am

Very helpful!

I'm still pretty new to the game (finished it twice - once for Lazy Bastard and Steam All the Way and another time for Raining Bullets and Logistic Network Embargo). First play through took 100 hours and second took 50 hours. Both times, it took over 15 hours to get Advanced Oil Processing, so I thought it would be instructive to see how to tech up quickly for this.

Finished research on Advanced Oil Processing at 2:40.
Completed the base minus 13 labs and rocket staging area in 3:55 (an hour later than what you mentioned at the same point)
Silo research finished at 6:12
Finished the game in 7:04:21.

My calculations for when to stop purple and gold science production didn't work out (ran out long before the silo finished researching), so had to reload. Does your 9.72 packs per min number take into account 2 prod 1 modules in the science pack assemblers and the labs?

I had to keep purple and gold science pack production running right until the silo finished researching. Ran low on Blue, Purple, and Gold science packs, so swapped the prod modules out for two speed 1 modules in their assemblers and some of the assemblers of their inputs (electric mining drill, engines, electric furnaces, green chip assembler above the drill assembler, etc.). By the end of silo research, only half of the labs were researching due to being short purple packs.

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by Omnifarious » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:42 pm

Has anybody updated this for 0.16? In particular, I'm looking for a good map string. They changed resource generation in 0.16. I haven't tried the 0.15 map string, but I suspect it wouldn't work well. Also, does the achievement require not turning off (or even turning down) the biters in 0.15? It does in 0.16.

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by Omnifarious » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:13 am

I was right. Doesn't work in 0.16 because they closed the loophole of setting enemy bases to 'None'. If you load the map string, then set the enemy bases back to normal, you get a completely different map of course, since the random number generator is now cycled through for the biter bases and throws it all off.

But, at first blush, the map doesn't look half bad for an attempt at "There Is No Spoon". Better than most of the maps I've been using.

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by fouve » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:33 am

Did this via multiplayer in .16.24. Took us quite a bit. Probably spent about 22 hours overall. It was tough in .16, but doable. Don't think I could do it by myself. Finished in just under 7 hours.

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by Omnifarious » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:51 am

I managed to find a map in 0.16 that's a lot better than this map. Still haven't managed a sub-8 hour playthrough. I'm almost tempted to load in an older version of Factorio just to get the achievement. But I feel like that would be cheating.

Here's the map string... main annoyance is that the coal isn't really close to everything else. It's not far, and it's very close to the oil, which is nice. Also, for power poles... not quite enough trivially accessed trees. The biters don't show up for quite awhile though (I think because of trees) so that's nice. You can't actually turn them off and still get the achievement in 0.16. Here's the string:

Code: Select all

>>>eNpjYBBgkGBgYGBm4WFJzk/MYWZl5UrOLyhILdLNL0oF8jiTi0pT
UnXzM0FSbCmpxalFJYxA5SmZRSXMzMxcqXmpuZW6SYnFqUAea3pRYnE
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McEcAQ/ACO4wHjFtmBgT4YC9XeuwWAJaVkxw=<<<
I also found this promising looking island posted somewhere that has enough resources if you burn solid fuel for electricity partway through:

Code: Select all

>>>eNpjYBBgkGBgYGBk5WFJzk/MYWZh5UrOLyhILdLNL0oF8jiTi0pT
UnXzM3NYWFjZUlKLU4tKmJmZWVIywTRXal5qbqVuUmJxKpDHml6UWFw
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LZE8KnHjBDHcEMAQvsMN4wLhlZkCAD/Z8LSJXAL1okpI=<<<

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by rarek » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:28 pm

Hello,

I launched the rocket at 6:36:43. I was a bit confused sometimes f.e which miners should I build as description is not very exact. I understood the build completely when I finished the run. The mid section of the game was a bit erratic but I managed alright without much fuss. The adjustments I did was for red/green science - I built few steel furnaces here and there to upgrade the iron and gears production and switched to blue factories in few places to make circuits production higher.

Overally it is decent guide for "There is no spoon". Perfect way to get the achievement (although I feel I little dirty by following it - but as they say "the end justifies the means"). Thank you very much for your hard work. If I could suggest something is to add description for map on what is what. I understand that the speedrunner-wannabe should analyze the plan beforehand but having labeled areas such as "red science miners" or "plastic production" or "concrete production" would help a lot.

Thanks once again
Great work!

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by oby » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:49 am

I started it in september in 0.15.?, and I finished this game successfully just now, 5 months later in 0.15.40.

Thanks! 4 achievements in one-shot :-D

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by queentrin » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:39 am

haha 7:57:03. PLENTY of time yep. i had huge issues with blue science the entire time. it was very odd. but i made it in the end.
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427520_20180325200736_1.png
HAHAHA nailed it
427520_20180325200736_1.png (2.97 MiB) Viewed 1692 times

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by Hedning1390 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:23 pm

The key to getting this achievement is to build in straight rows and not overcomplicate designs, to not research what is not needed (like power armor and bots), and to shut off assemblers the moment they are no longer needed (like all science once the rocket silo research is almost done).

I got this achievement on my first try without consulting screenshots or bringing in blueprints, or even planning anything.

Some other tips:
-At the very start have an assembler each of gears and electronic circuits, perhaps manually supplied, crafting those things for you.
-Don't be afraid of overbuilding. If you build too many machines all that happens is they stop working. Building materials are cheap compared to producing science.
-Don't automate complicated things, like all inserter types, before you have a solid factory foundation. Hand crafting is fast enough to be viable well into the game.
-Convert light oil to solid fuel production as soon as you are laying down your plastic production and buffer it.
-Leave plenty of room to lay down additional lines of smelting. One way to do this is to build your entire base to one side of your smelting, not two or more. This way both copper and iron can expand infinitely.
-If you are unsure what to do next, or just need time to breathe, you can pause the game and the timer will stop.
-Don't think you need to have a "main bus" just because you've heard it talked about so much. It is much quicker to just draw a belt from where something is produced straight to where it is needed. Lust leave enough room for the main things: smelting and circuits. If you are very used to building a "main bus" absolutely still use it, but if not there's no point.
-Don't worry about building perfect belt balancers. Just place splitters to cover all lanes and it's good enough. Especially now when you can set priority.
-Leftover speed modules can boost the final rocket part production a lot.
-Place productivity modules in your labs asap. t1 works until t2. Don't overbuild t3 though. you need 4 t3 for the silo, but not anything else. You can make sure you are not making too many t3 by not having an inserter insert blue circuits into the t3 assembler.

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by bobucles » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:11 pm

I strongly recommend watching professional speed runners to help plan out your run. You obviously don't have to be as fast as them to get under 8 hours, but there are a few major topics that they can teach:
- Look at their base layouts. The speed runners try to get things done in half the time so they build twice as much. Try to build around their scale and it should turn out okay.
- Build too many low tech items and stockpile them in chests. That way you have a huge supply of items to begin crafting high tech things right away. You can never have too many green circuits.
- Laser turrets are really are nice to have. There's no shame in rushing out this research to make your defenses easy mode.
- Build faster, not smarter. Many production facilities are simply "a big line of X". Don't be afraid of being wasteful if it means you can build it fast. For example don't bother cracking your heavy oil, just make a dozen tanks to stash it or process it directly into solid fuel. Keep looking for shortcuts to scale your base quickly and easily.
- Bring blueprints! Speedrunners have done their attempts so many times that they already have blueprints in their head. Build a chunk of factory, untangle the spaghetti, then blueprint it so you can build it in your next game.
- Practice! Everyone started out slow. If someone says they built their very first rocket in less than 20 hours they're lying. :D

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by D0SBoots » Fri May 18, 2018 5:49 pm

Darn it, I had notifications turned on for this thread, but somehow I missed the past several months of activity.

It's too bad about them closing the "no enemy bases" loophole, although I suppose it was inevitable. I wonder if "no pollution" still works...? In any case, sounds like it may be time to start gearing up for a 16.X guide... :D
stevendesu wrote:For starters, the absolute BIGGEST waste of time in my run was waiting for green science. With a production rate of 6 seconds per one and only 4 assemblers, we're getting one green science every 1.5 seconds. With early research taking 5, 10, or 15 seconds per research attempt, this means we're keeping up with 3, 6, or 10 labs -- that 3 and 6 meant a LOT of waiting. Around the 1:30:00 mark I had built out 10 of the labs, but I didn't have advanced oil processing until the 3:00:00 mark because I was only running 3 of the labs at a time. This problem only got worse. By the 4:00:00 mark I had built out the entire factory (every assembler, inserter, and transport belt was in its place) but I was slowly meandering towards Concrete while still severely lacking in green science. I ended up building four additional green science producers in a corner of the factory and dumping the output in a chest to feed onto the central science transport belt.
I'm baffled as to how your experience was so different than everyone else's. For one thing, you're not accounting for the fact that Assembly Machine 1s (the type that are producing the green science in this factory) have a crafting speed of 0.5, so actually you're only getting one green science every *3* seconds, or 20/min. Despite this, it has the highest rate of production of any of the sciences, tied with red science. And you're wrong about the length of time it takes to research - all green research takes *at least* 15 seconds per attempt, but mostly it takes 30 seconds/attempt. At 30 seconds/attempt, that's enough to keep 10 labs going, or 12 once you put the productivity modules in. And again - the red science should be producing at the same rate. All I can guess is you had resource shortages in your green production somehow?

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by zOldBulldog » Sat May 19, 2018 8:31 pm

Posting just to get notifications.

Interested in a .16 update and any 0.16 maps that are good for spoon runs.

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by GeneralSphinx » Sun May 20, 2018 8:27 am

Finished the game in 7:23 in 0.16. Drew a lot of inspiraton from the original post.

Biters were not an issue, i set the starting area to the largest and disabled pollution, evolution and new enemy bases.

Bottleneck for me was high tech science and blue chips, last research took the longest. To launch the rocket it took about 20 minutes.

Generated the map until there was coal near water and a huge iron patch near the starting location. Also stone close by. There was a small copper patch near, that was good for earlygame. And a huge copper a bit farther, for lategame.

Map string:

Code: Select all

>>>eNpjYBBgUGFgYmBm4GFJzk/MYWZm5UrOLyhILdLNL0plZWXlTC4q
TUnVzc/MYWFmZUtJLU4tKmFmYGZJyQTTXKl5qbmVukmJxanMzIys6UW
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cIHtS4MQLZrgjgCF4gR3GA8YtMwMCfLCf8eWNGwAQhJUn<<<
Image

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Re: My guide to "There is no spoon" (15.X version)

Post by zOldBulldog » Sun May 20, 2018 11:46 am

Thank you very much GeneralSphinx for sharing the map and settings.

I did not realize we could do Spoon in 0.16 with pollution, evolution and new enemy bases disabled. Choosing those will make a huge difference.

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