Double header train stop designs

[vanatteveldt]

I used to use single header trains and looped stations, with waiting bays on the incoming part of the loop and stations on the returning part.

Now I figured I would use double header trains, hoping it would make station design easier. For stations with a single train this is true, but I'm not sure how to handle waiting bays properly. Or do you just create a train strop for each train that could use the station?

For inspiration, here are two screenshots with station designs:

screenies

Left is circuit production, right is general goods production. I use a junction to branch a single track off to left and right, and then branch that single track to the stations. This is quite compact, but has no waiting bays so it gets in trouble if there are multiple trains that e.g. need to load circuits at the same time.



This is the loading area for my smelters. On the right is my main line, it branches off to a pretty big waiting area, which converges tot the 5 loading stations. The return is a single track that merges back into the mainline. This has goog waiting bays, but takes about the same space as a looped solution. Only benefit is that the plates don't have to cross the tracks, but that's pretty minor?

How do you design your double header stations?

[ftbreizhbugs]

Hello,
When i started factorio, i didnt like double headed trains but i changed my mind and use them 99% of the time now. They allow to put stations inside the base but also outpost with minimal effort (usually). But Its not because you have double headed trains that you cant use loops!
For example, on the same train line, my smelters (3/4 trains on each iron/copper/coal station)have kind of a "loop", but my ore patch have not (only one trains par patch). Some places have waiting bays some have not. On my base below, BUS batteries/blue/red/green/plastic) have a waiting bay but doesnt need it because only one train par station (for now) but i thought i will have more than one per station so i put a waiting bay... (will probably not use it though)
My fuel station (left of "fuel supply") have several same name station, depending on train length) but no waiting bay(station stop set to 5 seconds)

[Distelzombie]

If you want to check it out: I made a complete blueprint book with every trainstation ever needed.
viewtopic.php?f=194&t=47089

It is for 1-2-1 trains, but they can easily be increased. (I may be doing that sometime in the future) You can always look at them and use my ideas.
I keep the books updated. Thats why they have version numbers. Check back regularly for improved designs.

[Kelderek]

Here's an example from my current 0.15.x game of a complex with multiple stations. I have a large stacker to the upper left for incoming trains. The stations are in pairs with an entry and exit also able to support a single train (all my trains are 1-2-1 or 1-1-1). For a matched pair of stations the entry lane can serve as an extra waiting bay (see the two bottom left iron ore stations and the two copper ore stations next to that). I like having enough room for a full train in the exit lane so that it can fully clear the station even if it can't fully exit the entire complex yet. If I need to have a pair of stations that are completely different, then I can remove the rail signal of the entry line (Yellow circle) and that would prevent any train from blocking that lane - those would only wait in the stacker -- this prevents say an oil train from sitting in the entry lane and blocking the adjoined general supply station that is paired there.

I do not use any train stops in the system that are not real train stations, i.e. I do not use train stops in any waiting bays or stackers.

Everything exits to the upper right. On the far right I have a single station off by itself on a two-way line -- that one was more of an afterthought, but it is an example of using a two-way line in this setup.

Train bays.jpg (1.96 MiB) Viewed 24766 times

I like this system. It flows nicely even with high volume, does not deadlock, and is easy to expand.

[vanatteveldt]

Excellent suggestions so far, thanks!

I think my number one problem is trying to build too compact, damn biters take up to much space

[Escadin]

What kind of monster lurks behind your stations that they require you to (un)load 8 trains at once?

[Kelderek]

What kind of monster lurks behind your stations that they require you to (un)load 8 trains at once?

Are you asking me or the OP?

This is my train complex for an auxiliary base I have separate from my main base whose sole purpose is to do everything pertaining to launching rockets. The stations here are 2 for iron ore, 2 copper ore, 1 coal, 1 oil, 1 general supplies, and one passenger. All of these are used to feed dedicated smelting and a main bus for the making of rocket parts and satellites. The general supply train brings in needed items for construction like assemblers, inserters, modules, etc., from the main base. I then use a separate train to bring back the space science packs to my main base for use in labs. The resources that come into this complex are from separate mining outposts that serve only this base.

This one is a little smaller than the train complex at my main base which also had stations for things like stone and uranium. I have a single nuclear power setup (6 reactors thus far (2x3)) that powers everything from one location.

[vanatteveldt]

What kind of monster lurks behind your stations that they require you to (un)load 8 trains at once?

Are you asking me or the OP?

I thought he was asking you

Anyway, for me it's the smelter: it takes in 2 trains of ore (in a separate station) and loads 5 trains of plates (2xiron, 2xcopper, 1xsteel). I should probably split it into three stations to make it more manageable, they don't really have anything to do with each other...

@Kelderek I take it you are from a TTD background? . Design looks cool, although it would be nice to have the stacker take a bit less room, and with 1-4-1 trains it would be pretty big. I'll try to make a more compact version by finding a different place for the stacker.

I don't understand the reasoning behind the signalling for the outgoing tracks after crossing the incoming line. The leftmost has a normal signal (blue circle), but the others don't have any signal (green circles). Then, when the different outgoing lines merge, you use chain signals (purple signals). This means that the leftmost train would cross and potentiall stop at the first chain signal, which is probably not enough room for a 1-2-1 train, while other outgoing trains wait before crossing until the track is completely clear. I would normally try to place only normal signals on outgoing lines (clearing the station is the priority), but if you do want a chain signal before the cross you would want to have a normal signal as soon as there is room for a train, right?

[Kelderek]

What kind of monster lurks behind your stations that they require you to (un)load 8 trains at once?

Are you asking me or the OP?

I thought he was asking you

Anyway, for me it's the smelter: it takes in 2 trains of ore (in a separate station) and loads 5 trains of plates (2xiron, 2xcopper, 1xsteel). I should probably split it into three stations to make it more manageable, they don't really have anything to do with each other...

@Kelderek I take it you are from a TTD background? . Design looks cool, although it would be nice to have the stacker take a bit less room, and with 1-4-1 trains it would be pretty big. I'll try to make a more compact version by finding a different place for the stacker.

I don't understand the reasoning behind the signalling for the outgoing tracks after crossing the incoming line. The leftmost has a normal signal (blue circle), but the others don't have any signal (green circles). Then, when the different outgoing lines merge, you use chain signals (purple signals). This means that the leftmost train would cross and potentiall stop at the first chain signal, which is probably not enough room for a 1-2-1 train, while other outgoing trains wait before crossing until the track is completely clear. I would normally try to place only normal signals on outgoing lines (clearing the station is the priority), but if you do want a chain signal before the cross you would want to have a normal signal as soon as there is room for a train, right?

I have never played TTD, but I bet I would like it from all I've heard.

Space is not an issue on my current map, I have tons of open space to build this auxiliary factory. I am only using about a third of the available land mass for this "continent", and I have multiple land masses between water areas to choose from (I play with water on normal frequency, very big size). Here's my full map view:

Map

You can see me in the lower part of the map. My main base is to the north.

20170511023446_1.jpg (387.26 KiB) Viewed 24567 times

There is indeed enough space on the left side of my outgoing lanes to fit a 1-2-1 train as seen here:

Outgoing lanes

Train bays 2.jpg (1.15 MiB) Viewed 24567 times

It is quite possible that my signals are either incorrect or not ideal, but I know that they work without having a deadlock which is important. I only ever use normal rail signals in places where the track after it can hold an entire train before any other crossings, splits or merges. That one spot on the left was just big enough so I allowed a regular rail signal there and use chain signals in the other spots.

EDIT: Here's a pic of my main base train complex, If you thought my other one used up a lot of space then you'll love this one, lol:

Main Base

Trains enter through the stacker in the upper right and exit to the right.

20170511025547_1.jpg (1.57 MiB) Viewed 24563 times

[vanatteveldt]

Thanks again for you replies! I took inspiration especially from Kelderek and did some puzzling myself.

I came up with the following building blocks:

simple station pair

Simplest station pairs, trains come and go from bottom. This can lead either to a full junction, or this can be a branch line for which trains only need to travel to/from bottom (e.g. from an outpost towards main base). I'm assuming right-hand drive.



Every station pair has a shared waiting bay, so the two stations can service three trains. If trains can wait indefinitely (e.g. wait until empty/full) this can only be used if the two stations are of the same type, otherwise a train waiting for station A to be released will block the approach to station B. You can change the incoming signal to chain to avoid this, but that essentially wastes the space for the incoming waiting bay.

Note that I put normal signals on the outgoing line after crossing the incoming line. This can lead to an outgoing train blocking the track (since there isn't enough room between the signal and the next), but this should always be temporary since it's blocked by another outgoing train. You can replace them by chain signals but that would mean that the whole outgoing track needs to be cleared before a train can leave. The general idea is that trains are always allowed to leave, but can only enter it there is room.

(You can swap direction to make trains come from in and leave from the top, but (in RHD) that will cause the outgoing track to be less clear than the incoming, which is not ideal.)

inline stacker

If you need more waiting bays, you can prepend a stacker. I wanted something that is compact and that can be placed later if needed, so I came up with the following:



You can drop this in the incoming line and it creates extendable stacking space. With 6 waiting bays it takes the same horizontal room as the stations.

experimental bypassable stacker

Not sure if it is useful, you can create a bypass for the stacker with a circuit-controlled signal set to close if any of the waiting bays (in the stacker or the stations) is not green.



I think this should be safe and I've let a bunch of trains drive around for a while without seeing problems, but the benefit is somewhat dubious since mostly if stations are that busy there will always be a train waiting in my experience. It's a shame that you can't tell the train to go straight if a chain signal is green and go into the waiting bay otherwise, as that would be ideal.

variation, connect from left

Assuming the line you want to connect to is on the left you can connect the stations more easily with a slight variation, especially for the stacker:



Edit: I just realized that the empty space in the middle of the stacker is perfect for adding a pair of support stations that don't need waiting bays, for example for a passenger train and for fuel or building supplies:
(with the added bonus of not having to loop through the stacker in your passenger train )

The blueprint book contains blueprints for a single station pair, the basic stacker, the stacker extender, and the variations with left hand connect.

blueprint book

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Edit: I noticed that when placing the blueprints sometimes the signals are weird, either red when there isn't a single train yet, or flashing. Removing and replacing the same signal makes it behave normally again. Is that a known bug?

[Distelzombie]

Edit: I noticed that when placing the blueprints sometimes the signals are weird, either red when there isn't a single train yet, or flashing. Removing and replacing the same signal makes it behave normally again. Is that a known bug?

Yes.
Are your stations not for unloading? Theres not enough room for that.

[Kelderek]

Looks like you're well on your way, glad I could help. Many of the things I did came from ideas other people had first. I was inspired a lot by the 0.15 mega base that V435000 posted at the 0.15 FFF release -- if you weren't aware, he has a download link for that savegame in either the FFF or the imgur album, I forget which. He has about 200+ trains so you can see how he manages to deal with stations and track to accommodate that.

Are your stations not for unloading? Theres not enough room for that.

It looks like vanatteveldt is using a spacing of 2 rails width and you can build an unloading station on one side in a space that narrow.

Narrow Unloading Station

You can see here that I have 3 rail width gap between stations (note the extra rail pieces I added to show the measure), but these unloading stations only use up 2 rail width of space so that should work for vanatteveldt. This is one of the designs I copied from V435000's map. I'm not sure how well it manages to compress these blue belts, but it seems to be close enough to be useful in a tight space.

EDIT: after I took this screenshot I realized that these stations can now have more chests due to the recent increase in underground belt length, so instead of 4 chests I changed it to 5 on each side. You could probably do even 6 chests with some more maneuvering, but I think 5 is plenty. Also that only works on red or blue belts since yellow is still 4 length for underground.

20170512115822_1.jpg (1.5 MiB) Viewed 24283 times

I also decided to enlarge my stacker from 14 waiting bays to about 28. I had a moment when I was over there and saw 12 trains waiting so I knew it might be a good idea to go ahead and make it bigger to avoid anything backing up on the main line.

Updated Waiting Bays

20170512120021_1.jpg (1.53 MiB) Viewed 24283 times

[iceman_1212]

Now I figured I would use double header trains

Welcome to the dark side

FWIW, I think RORO stations (with single headers) are superior for ore collection / dropoff because of both (1) the relatively small stack-size of ore compared to stuff like plates, circuits, etc. and (2) the relatively simply train network structure (trains just need to go back and forth between the mine and the central dropoff, which makes it easy to avoid unnecessary looping). My last 0.14 map had separate train networks for pre-smelting and post-smelting. On balance though, I do like top and tail for the simplified station design.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand: Your station and stacker designs look good. One thing to keep in mind is that minimizing the distance between stacker and station (especially for smelteries) can greatly help with how frequently trains can cycle in and out of stations.

Below is another example of stacker/station design that I used in 0.14, if helpful.