Permanent Biter Defense

[Gouada]

Hey,
Quick question here... I've been trying for hours to make an invincible wall: one where even the gigantic biters with full evolution won't damage any part of the wall when they attack. It can use whatever weapons or defenses you want, the only catch is that no robots should be involved, I want to use belts/power lines to supply resources and NEVER need to use repair packs.
Don't care if this wall will be a huge resource sink, in fact that's probably better for my 150 hour factory

So any ideas?

EDIT: New challenge is to come up with the most efficient robot repaired wall, since a simple kill the biters before they damage you tactic appears impossible...

[Nexela]

Natural Evolution has a self healing alien wall

But if you are looking for something easy this will be pretty easy to make as mod just need to set max_health to 0 in your prototype

[Mehve]

You used to be able to lay down belts to keep the biters from closing into firing/biting range, but these days the belts will get destroyed and need to be replaced. These days, I would seriously question whether it's possible to NEVER take damage from biter attacks.

[Hannu]

As far as I know it is impossible in vanilla game. Enemies damage all entities and eventually destroy them if they are not repaired. But automated bot repairing system works well and uses quite much resources to build. If I would like to play without repair robots, I would mod turrets to much longer range than spitters have. Or maybe make insanely expensive impenetrable walls.

[ChurchOrganist]

Have you tried my mod - Reinforced Walls?

This gives you three wall upgrades you can use as the biters become progessively more evolved.

I'm not certain I have the balance right yet, but the last upgrade will currently kill a big biter that attacks it, although it will be demolished in the process.

The link is in my sig

[Gouada]

Hmm, well now I'm starting to think that there may be a balance problem in Factorio atm. With all of the most efficient (damage wise) combinations of fire, gun, and laser turrents I could think of the front row always takes damage if more than 4 biters attack. This thing is massive and expensive as hell yet even with the best tech can't completely fend off a few biters...
Will post a picture of my design as soon as I get on my computer.

[Ratzap]

Hey,
Quick question here... I've been trying for hours to make an invincible wall: one where even the gigantic biters with full evolution won't damage any part of the wall when they attack. It can use whatever weapons or defenses you want, the only catch is that no robots should be involved, I want to use belts/power lines to supply resources and NEVER need to use repair packs.
Don't care if this wall will be a huge resource sink, in fact that's probably better for my 150 hour factory

So any ideas?

The best defence is a good offence: take a couple of hours, go out there and exterminate everything in your cloud. Problem solved.

[Gouada]

Problem is, for every 10 hours of building or so, I need to spend 3 clearing out the biters. The problem is aggravated by how expansive my rail based base is and all the steam engines I use...
Would thus love to have a wall that lasts indefinitely, even if it is stupidly expensive.

[Ratzap]

Problem is, for every 10 hours of building or so, I need to spend 3 clearing out the biters. The problem is aggravated by how expansive my rail based base is and all the steam engines I use...
Would thus love to have a wall that lasts indefinitely, even if it is stupidly expensive.

That's the price you pay for leaving the biter settings on standard or increasing them. Combat currently is pretty damn tedious after a while so I can understand where you're coming from but not really sympathize very much. If it bothers you that much, use the console and turn them passive, turn their breeding off then wipe them out with a kill all. Problem solved and your walls won't get damaged.

[MrGrim]

I'm starting to think that there may be a balance problem in Factorio atm.

Factorio definitely has some balance problems, but tbh I think the ability to build a "perfect" defense would be a balance problem in and of itself. The logistical challenge of a self sustaining wall is a good one, imo. If the biters as a source of consistent pressure to defend and consider expansion carefully is not a good one then I think that needs addressing.

I think 0.14 does a pretty decent job of it. Maintaining an outpost under siege can be difficult. For example, in my current game at some point the biters started taking out power poles to a remote outpost before actually attacking it leaving it completely defenseless considering the defense was entirely reliant on laser turrets! By time I got there the outpost was half gone and I found my outpost supply train broken in two with the cargo wagon that contained all of the supplies destroyed! Fortunately, I had a template wagon so I was a quick copy and paste away from a new supply train, and constructions bots had the base back to like new in no time. So, now I consider redundant power delivery as a part of hostile outpost design now.

I also have a large secured perimeter with several "safe" outposts, and that perimeter wall is all flame/gun turrets and is supplied by trains and managed by bots. I thought it was fun to set up, and now I can safely ignore alerts at my walls as even the # of bots in service is managed automatically.

I'm curious, is this just a challenge idea you had; something to try to do because it would be interesting, or are you just tired of dealing with biters and want a hands free approach to keeping them at bay?

[Gouada]

I'm starting to think that there may be a balance problem in Factorio atm.

Factorio definitely has some balance problems, but tbh I think the ability to build a "perfect" defense would be a balance problem in and of itself. The logistical challenge of a self sustaining wall is a good one, imo. If the biters as a source of consistent pressure to defend and consider expansion carefully is not a good one then I think that needs addressing.

I think 0.14 does a pretty decent job of it. Maintaining an outpost under siege can be difficult. For example, in my current game at some point the biters started taking out power poles to a remote outpost before actually attacking it leaving it completely defenseless considering the defense was entirely reliant on laser turrets! By time I got there the outpost was half gone and I found my outpost supply train broken in two with the cargo wagon that contained all of the supplies destroyed! Fortunately, I had a template wagon so I was a quick copy and paste away from a new supply train, and constructions bots had the base back to like new in no time. So, now I consider redundant power delivery as a part of hostile outpost design now.

I also have a large secured perimeter with several "safe" outposts, and that perimeter wall is all flame/gun turrets and is supplied by trains and managed by bots. I thought it was fun to set up, and now I can safely ignore alerts at my walls as even the # of bots in service is managed automatically.

I'm curious, is this just a challenge idea you had; something to try to do because it would be interesting, or are you just tired of dealing with biters and want a hands free approach to keeping them at bay?

Well, a little bit of both
I'm annoyed by the biters being something that you constantly need to take care of, and need sometime as more of a resource sink so I came up with the challenge.

[TheTom]

Funny - I personally think base defense is too simple if you just follow simple rules. There definitely is balancing needed. I play Bob at the moment and added scary nights, but even then it is way too simple to keep biters quiet on the large main base. Heck, I do so nearly automaticalyl by having my manufacturing base in the center and expansion space around it. Ok, and using nucular power, which is free of pollution

Scary nights, though, makes it harder.

[bobucles]

Mods let you create moats, which biters have no way of crossing. Build a massive moat and your base will be protected.

[Gouada]

Here's clarification as to why I started the topic:

I've been playing Factorio since 0.9.8 and really enjoy the game (~600 hours logged) but try to avoid using mods that aren't helper mods. My past games have been 50 to 100 hours long, with a sprawled out solar panel powered base that uses trains for resources. Ussually, the explored land area is rather small and pollution kept to a minimum.

However, my current game was founded with the goal of using mainly steam power and having a compartmentalized base that has an outpost per major resource (electronic circuits, science, etc). The game idea is quite similar to MangledPorkGaming's Towns series, if you've heard of that.

Because of my base design, I've ended up having many more and larger than previously witnessed biter attacks that are especially dangerous due to the green spitters. Honestly, biters are far from being my favorite part of the game, but I feel that peaceful mode would be cheating. So, I came up with the challenge to make a defensive wall that can cost as much as needed as long as once built, it never need be repaired.

Since that appears to be impossible, because even with all the variations that I could come up with an attack with only 10 biters will damage the wall in some way. Surprisingly, rows and rows of lasers with express belts slowing the enemy ended up working best. Flame turrents burn the belts, and while gun turrents have a high DPS the area of the system needed to keep them supplied with ammo would be better spent filled up with laser turrents.

In conclusion, I guess that my updated question is, what's the most efficient way of setting up a defensive wall using roboports to repair any lost health? Thanks for sticking with me everyone

[MrGrim]

Here's clarification as to why I started the topic:

I've been playing Factorio since 0.9.8 and really enjoy the game (~600 hours logged) but try to avoid using mods that aren't helper mods. My past games have been 50 to 100 hours long, with a sprawled out solar panel powered base that uses trains for resources. Ussually, the explored land area is rather small and pollution kept to a minimum.

However, my current game was founded with the goal of using mainly steam power and having a compartmentalized base that has an outpost per major resource (electronic circuits, science, etc). The game idea is quite similar to MangledPorkGaming's Towns series, if you've heard of that.

Because of my base design, I've ended up having many more and larger than previously witnessed biter attacks that are especially dangerous due to the green spitters. Honestly, biters are far from being my favorite part of the game, but I feel that peaceful mode would be cheating. So, I came up with the challenge to make a defensive wall that can cost as much as needed as long as once built, it never need be repaired.

Since that appears to be impossible, because even with all the variations that I could come up with an attack with only 10 biters will damage the wall in some way. Surprisingly, rows and rows of lasers with express belts slowing the enemy ended up working best. Flame turrents burn the belts, and while gun turrents have a high DPS the area of the system needed to keep them supplied with ammo would be better spent filled up with laser turrents.

In conclusion, I guess that my updated question is, what's the most efficient way of setting up a defensive wall using roboports to repair any lost health? Thanks for sticking with me everyone

Well, I opted for gun and flame turrets so my defenses didn't depend on power. I wanted to be immune to a power cut to a town (accidental or because the wrong pole got in the way of a biter) or an accumulator black out. Still, my method could be adapted to laser walls. I'm opting to secure a very large perimeter rather than outposts right now. I have 19 walls varying in length from a couple of chunks to 15+ chunks with 2 (and adding more possible) trains making the rounds.

I use constant combinators to set a filter inserters filters to control wall outpost inventory. I keep at least 1 of everything used to build the wall and outpost and multiples of high use items like replacement walls/turrets, repair packs, and bots. Logistics bots handle ammo distribution to a requester chest next to every gun turret and oil barrels to a single assembler for supplying the flame turrets. It's all entirely bot based.

I don't much care for belts to manage biter movement. I find them tacky and really unnecessary.

Later today I can provide screenshots of various parts of my setup if you're interested.

*EDIT*: I forgot to mention that I use a pair of circuit network controlled filter inserters to manage bot count at each wall. Walls and construction bots are the largest casualties of wall defense by far.

[Hannu]

In conclusion, I guess that my updated question is, what's the most efficient way of setting up a defensive wall using roboports to repair any lost health?

I have this kind of solution (defense begins at about 11 minutes):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUbHAHsxyBY

I have triple walls and line of turrets. Then I have a supply railway and connected line of roboports. I have supply station on every 5th roboport. I leave tools, walls, gates and turrets, everything enemies destroy. And of course bullet clips if I use gun turrets. I divide line to separate sections which are up to 600 m long (12 roboports) so that robots do not wander through wilderness. One supply station in every line unloads also construction bots and they are feeded into the nearest roboport. I use 50 construction bots and 30-50 logistic bots per roboport. It is probably an overkill but it is better to overestimate enemy strength.

I have one train per about 6-8 km defense line (two trains in the system) and 24 yellow assemblers to make bullets. I have not had any breakthroughs even the line consumed up to 5-7 k bullets per hour. However, when I switched to peaceful during large construction works, because I made a mod which changed recipes, and returned enemy aggressivity, they began to insanely attack from every direction. I used 16 k bullets per one hour and was forced to switch back to peaceful (because I wanted to continue mod testing without disturbations).

Now I began the train world and I decided to disable enemies completely. It may be somewhat realistic that enemies attack against railways and power lines, but unfortunately it makes the game with separate factories or outposts practically stupid solution in late game. If I have to protect all railways with the defense walls I have to use as long (or longer, depending on geometry) defense lines than if I would enclose the large rectangular area in which every my facilities are. The larger the base is the better line length per area ratio is. Also the lakes give natural free parts to the line.

[ChurchOrganist]

In conclusion, I guess that my updated question is, what's the most efficient way of setting up a defensive wall using roboports to repair any lost health? Thanks for sticking with me everyone

If you'd like to see such a system in action, pop in to yfcz's multiplayer server !EU !Low Resources + A Lot of Water = More Fun.

Here we've just started to supply frontline hotspots by train, setting up self-contained roboport networks staffed by construction robots.

The unloading station uses stack filter inserters to unload supplies directly into 6 storage chests, the station footprint being within the logistic network for that hotspot.

We now have two supply trains (one for the east side and one for the west) which load up at the main base and then work their way round the system, topping up supplies where necessary.

Be prepared for a long wait to join the server - the map has become huge - currently a 40MB download.

[MrGrim]

I have not had any breakthroughs even the line consumed up to 5-7 k bullets per hour. ... I used 16 k bullets per one hour ...

By bullets per hour I'm assuming you mean magazines per hour and not actual bullets fired? I just measured my magazine usage last night for the first time after I completed my final perimeter wall and initial stocking, and it comes to about 1k to 1.1k per hour. Eventually there will be a phase two of expansion that will probably double my perimeter radius and therefore increase my total wall length by 3-4 times.

Out of curiosity, how many of these 600m sections do you have, and how many have pollution spilling into nests over them? I've not actually measured mine yet, but I would like to and compare.

Also, are the walls exclusively gun turrets or are they bolstered by laser or flame?

[Hannu]

By bullets per hour I'm assuming you mean magazines per hour and not actual bullets fired? I just measured my magazine usage last night for the first time after I completed my final perimeter wall and initial stocking, and it comes to about 1k to 1.1k per hour. Eventually there will be a phase two of expansion that will probably double my perimeter radius and therefore increase my total wall length by 3-4 times.

Yes, I mean magazines.

Out of curiosity, how many of these 600m sections do you have, and how many have pollution spilling into nests over them?

I have 18 sections and 34 train stops. Most of the sections are much shorter. 600 m is maximum length, after which I break line into 2 parts if there are no natural breaks (actually I do not have any of artificial breaks now, if I remember). My area is about 3.5 km * 3.5 km.

My pollution leaks over borders in most of the area. There are several tens of medium sized biter bases under the heavy pollution.

http://imgur.com/a/wYdgV

Also, are the walls exclusively gun turrets or are they bolstered by laser or flame?

I have only gun turrets. Now I have continuous line and everyone have a requester chest with 200 clips of ammo. I try to find out are they enough to defend against huge late game swarms of enemies. It seems that biter nests expand slowly almost range of my turrets and their number increases all the time. Probably my defenses will be defeated at some time in not so far future, if I continue gaming without clearing worst bases around my borders.

[MrGrim]

Looks like you probably have around 2x as much wall surface area as I do. I also alternate between flame and gun so that probably trades some ammo use for oil instead. Flame turrets are pretty. I also just let them encroach and pollute the hell out of them. They get pretty aggressive, but I've never felt at risk with some waves including 10 or 15 behemoths.