Is the jump from science pack 2 to 3 too large?

[kingarthur]

the issue i have is that factorio is about automation.
from the front page of factorio.com

About the game
Factorio is a game in which you build and maintain factories.

so that means purple science doesnt fit in with the rest. if the automation cost of the packs shouldnt be increased and its about biter killing then combat needs more automation.

the way factorio is marketed and setup seems to me as ( be lazy as possible, do the least amount of work you can setting up the system to do it for you).
all other sci packs and the end game goal can be set up till its a single button press for them to complete work for you researching/ launching the rocket. yet sci pack 4 requires you to do 95% percent of the work forever.

[tehroach]

I also think the 4 science pack tiers should give a feel of regularly increasing complexity, instead of the irregular progression we have now.
Currently, I feel it's like "discover fire", "discover the wheel", "make a nuclear bomb", and finally "learn how to carve a stick". I'd really prefer a smoother progression along the science tiers.

Ok, that is a great Quote. Can I use it?

Haha this just makes me larf, because it is so true.

the problem with blue science is not that it is difficult in and of itself, it is that it is so petroleum demanding it leaves light/heavy out causing frustration in new players not knowing that their first research needs to be advanced oil processing so they can do cracking.

I think the Dude has hit the nail on the head with this problem.
The main issue is that Blue science to operate smoothly requires Adv Oil processing and Adv Oil requires Blue science.
ie I find it easiest to go straight to Adv Oil with my first blue science research and basically skip the Basic Oil stage.

ATM we have Research/Science tiered:

I believe the reasoning behind the science packs are the way the game teaches you how to play (which I think is an amazing ideal:

Science pack 1: basic automation
Science pack 2: automation with Intermediary items
Science pack 3: Adv oil
Science pack 4: take the fight to the aliens

IMO Spyder has boiled it down nicely and gives weight to the OP's suggestion of needing an intermediate 5th science stage.

ie
Science pack 1: Basic automation
Science pack 2: Intermediary automation
Science pack 3: Basic oil
Science pack 4: Adv oil
Science pack 5: take the fight to the aliens

Which then IMO expands to a required
Science pack 6: take the fight to the Aliens, steal their s#it and re-engineer it.


Conclusion (TL;DR)
It is not that SciencePack(SP) 3 is too hard or SP1 and SP2 are too easy that creates the large gap between SP2 and SP3.
The gap is created by the flow of the game and the fact that it is almost expected that you skip the basic oil stage.

[Optera]

IMO Spyder has boiled it down nicely and gives weight to the OP's suggestion of needing an intermediate 5th science stage.

ie
Science pack 1: Basic automation
Science pack 2: Intermediary automation
Science pack 3: Basic oil
Science pack 4: Adv oil
Science pack 5: take the fight to the aliens

Which then IMO expands to a required
Science pack 6: take the fight to the Aliens, steal their s#it and re-engineer it.

Why would we need more intermediate products? Whould they improve anything or be just there to make the game more complex without adding anything?
The same argument has been chewed down for realistic sulfuric acid processing for example.

Having 4 different sci packs is plenty. they just need rebalance. Having more only makes for larger science builds with no added benefits.

Conclusion (TL;DR)
It is not that SciencePack(SP) 3 is too hard or SP1 and SP2 are too easy that creates the large gap between SP2 and SP3.
The gap is created by the flow of the game and the fact that it is almost expected that you skip the basic oil stage.

This is why sci 3 should have more basic oil products like lubricant or sulfur rather than batteries and red circuits, while sci4 should require endgame items like T3 modules.

[Koub]

I also think the 4 science pack tiers should give a feel of regularly increasing complexity, instead of the irregular progression we have now.
Currently, I feel it's like "discover fire", "discover the wheel", "make a nuclear bomb", and finally "learn how to carve a stick". I'd really prefer a smoother progression along the science tiers.

Ok, that is a great Quote. Can I use it?

Yeah for sure.

To be a little more explicit, several things add-up that make the transition from green to blue feel like an anomaly in the science progression.
1st : the number of intermediate products, as kingarthur said here.
2nd : the amount of ressources needed to work at similar speed. Just to make things easy, I'll use the 5-6-12 reasonably balanced design to illustrate :
5 Mk2 assembling machines need 6 iron and 3 copper mining drills' output to produce their 45 red packs/minute
6 Mk2 assembling machines need 17 iron and 5 copper mining drills' output to produce their 45 green packs/minute
12 Mk2assembling machines 62 iron, 50 copper, 3 coal mining drills' output, plus 300 crude oil per minute (with advanced oil processing, because at the beginning of blue science, with basic oil processing, it's a LOT more). I give you the water for free. All this is needed as input to build your 45 blue science packs/minute

3rd : Same thing with the power consumption. With all this building complexity and the quantity, you'll need a HUGE up in your power generation to feed the machinery needed for blue science pack. You'll need 57 steel furnaces, 39 assembling machines, 4 refineries, 9 chem plants (and don't forget the drills and pumpjacks, I'll discount the inserters' power usage).

Reminder : for green science you needed 10 steel furnaces and 13 assembling machines only, and for red, it was 5 furnaces and 6 assembling machines.

4th : Lots of power usage ? Lots of pollution ! here comes the evolution factor, the bigger biters and spitters !

If I try to draw how it feels, a small graph. The blue line is the current, the red is what I would consider better :

Factorio - science pack difficulty.jpg (22.97 KiB) Viewed 5278 times

[tehroach]

IMO Spyder has boiled it down nicely and gives weight to the OP's suggestion of needing an intermediate 5th science stage.

ie
Science pack 1: Basic automation
Science pack 2: Intermediary automation
Science pack 3: Basic oil
Science pack 4: Adv oil
Science pack 5: take the fight to the aliens

Which then IMO expands to a required
Science pack 6: take the fight to the Aliens, steal their s#it and re-engineer it.

Why would we need more intermediate products? Whould they improve anything or be just there to make the game more complex without adding anything?
The same argument has been chewed down for realistic sulfuric acid processing for example.

I think the argument for realism is vastly different, this is more about the game relative to the game and not the game relative to real life.

To align the science progress with the natural progression of the game.

Having 4 different sci packs is plenty. they just need rebalance. Having more only makes for larger science builds with no added benefits.

4 is plenty and kind of the max for 1 side, hence going to 8 could be achieved without any real difficulty, hey this is Factorio, complexity is the added advantage

Conclusion (TL;DR)
It is not that SciencePack(SP) 3 is too hard or SP1 and SP2 are too easy that creates the large gap between SP2 and SP3.
The gap is created by the flow of the game and the fact that it is almost expected that you skip the basic oil stage.

This is why sci 3 should have more basic oil products like lubricant or sulfur rather than batteries and red circuits, while sci4 should require endgame items like T3 modules.

In the end I would probably agree with you a re-balance is mostly what is needed

something like
Science pack 1: Basic automation
Science pack 2: Intermediary automation
Science pack 3: Basic oil
Science pack 4: Adv oil

Then leave the alien artifacts for advanced military recipes.

[Drury]

Why does advanced oil processing need a separate science pack again? You're not getting any new products from it, you just shuffle a couple of pipes to do the same things you could do before, just more efficiently.

Besides, having more than 4 science packs means you have to feed labs from both sides. Not impossible, but quite awkward. Especially since the 3rd belt will be serving just one pack, one that doesn't need to exist in the first place.

As for the perceived "gap" between 2nd and 3rd pack, that's the game getting exponentially harder. That's actually good design.

[kingarthur]

i went a head and made a mod that attempts to adjust the difficulty. https://mods.factorio.com/mods/kingarth ... 0rebalance. please try it out and give feed back on it so that we can try to find a good balance. made with the intent of gather data for a better vanilla science balance.

if you think the values are off and have suggestions feel free to say so or edit the values and let us see the changes

[Artman40]

I don't think the difficulty jump is too large. Remember that you have to sort out the oil logistics between science pack 2 and 3. Oil kind of acts like a stepping stone to ease the difficulty spike.

[Align]

Why does advanced oil processing need a separate science pack again? You're not getting any new products from it, you just shuffle a couple of pipes to do the same things you could do before, just more efficiently.

I don't think they meant adv oil as in the research, but rather using more complex oil products, like advanced circuits and batteries, as opposed to simple things like lubricant or solid fuel.

[Ranakastrasz]

i went a head and made a mod that attempts to adjust the difficulty. https://mods.factorio.com/mods/kingarth ... 0rebalance. please try it out and give feed back on it so that we can try to find a good balance. made with the intent of gather data for a better vanilla science balance.

if you think the values are off and have suggestions feel free to say so or edit the values and let us see the changes

Personally, I would either drop the Alien Artifact requirement, or else make it take 10x as long, 10x as expensive, except still one artifact.

[BlakeMW]

Something I've got to say for those who think it is too hard to get Advanced Oil Processing.

By the time you've filled 1 tank with light oil and 1 tank with heavy oil, you have produced enough petroleum to make 555 Science Pack 3.

Advanced Oil Processing only costs 75 Science Pack 3.

So don't diddle around making accumulators and modules and god only knows what and just throw together an adhoc setup to make 75 science pack 3's, you can even hand craft the 75 filter inserters. The light/heavy tanks wont even be half full by the time you're done.

It's kind of like the start of the game, where you don't immediately set up automation for science pack 1, but use varying levels of hand crafting, manual insertion and so on for the first half dozen techs. Your first few blue science techs can and probably should be researched before you've set up proper automation for science pack 3.

[hoho]

Having 4 different sci packs is plenty. they just need rebalance. Having more only makes for larger science builds with no added benefits.

4 is plenty and kind of the max for 1 side, hence going to 8 could be achieved without any real difficulty, hey this is Factorio, complexity is the added advantage

It's trivial to get 3 belt lines per side of buildings. It's possible to go up to 6 different belts per side of a building if you really want to without leaving gaps between the buildings or resorting to "cheats" like underground belt weaving.

In the end I would probably agree with you a re-balance is mostly what is needed

something like
Science pack 1: Basic automation
Science pack 2: Intermediary automation
Science pack 3: Basic oil
Science pack 4: Adv oil

Then leave the alien artifacts for advanced military recipes.

I quite like the "advanced military requires special stuff" idea and wouldn't mind seeing that expanded to other areas. Possibly make it so that the game can be completed without requiring those researches but make the completionist to work for it.

E.g there might be different types for bottles for higher tiers of each armor/bullet/turret/tank/logistics/combat bot/space upgrades with each taking some components from their respective "fields". Sure, that'll mean there are 7 extra types of research bottles but most of those things aren't really needed to "complete" the game (launch the rocket) anyway.

For people that want to finish all the research it might make sense to have a different goal than to just expand the production capacity of their base. Having to come up with new production automation makes sense in my opinion.

Just for fun, I designed this 6 different belts per side thingy just now. I'm not sure if someone has come up with alternatives but using each belt for two types of items and having two of those on two sides of research labs would allow for a total of 24 different types of items be belted to them.

Note that I hadn't unlocked substations yet and it's not possible to feed all the long inserters without them. One would have to put the substation to where the 2x2 empty area is in the middle.

[British_Petroleum]

I think there should be more science packs

[huwp]

Science pack 3 as it stands is the chore you have to do to unlock the second half of the game.

[tehroach]

Why does advanced oil processing need a separate science pack again? You're not getting any new products from it, you just shuffle a couple of pipes to do the same things you could do before, just more efficiently.

I don't think they meant adv oil as in the research, but rather using more complex oil products, like advanced circuits and batteries, as opposed to simple things like lubricant or solid fuel.

Yes exactly, have blue research use the simpler oil products, then add the higher tier oil products to the purple science, thus making blue science slightly simpler and purple science vastly more complicated, therefore evening out the science complexity curve because as Koub said!

I also think the 4 science pack tiers should give a feel of regularly increasing complexity, instead of the irregular progression we have now.
Currently, I feel it's like "discover fire", "discover the wheel", "make a nuclear bomb", and finally "learn how to carve a stick". I'd really prefer a smoother progression along the science tiers.

I just had to quote this again because it is so fkn awesomely true

Having 4 different sci packs is plenty. they just need rebalance. Having more only makes for larger science builds with no added benefits.

4 is plenty and kind of the max for 1 side, hence going to 8 could be achieved without any real difficulty, hey this is Factorio, complexity is the added advantage

It's trivial to get 3 belt lines per side of buildings. It's possible to go up to 6 different belts per side of a building if you really want to without leaving gaps between the buildings or resorting to "cheats" like underground belt weaving.

Just for fun, I designed this 6 different belts per side thingy just now. I'm not sure if someone has come up with alternatives but using each belt for two types of items and having two of those on two sides of research labs would allow for a total of 24 different types of items be belted to them.

Note that I hadn't unlocked substations yet and it's not possible to feed all the long inserters without them. One would have to put the substation to where the 2x2 empty area is in the middle.

Check mate to the non-believers

This is great love it, but you should build it without using the extended underground belts mod, I think it would still work, just move the splitters on the wood/rail belt 1 to the left and as for the power supply you could easily do it with the medium poles if you had a space between every second assembler.

something like
Science pack 1: Basic automation
Science pack 2: Intermediary automation
Science pack 3: Basic oil
Science pack 4: Adv oil

Then leave the alien artifacts for advanced military recipes.

I quite like the "advanced military requires special stuff" idea and wouldn't mind seeing that expanded to other areas. Possibly make it so that the game can be completed without requiring those researches but make the completionist to work for it.

I so hope that they eventually do more stuff with the AI to allow/require this sort of thing

E.g there might be different types for bottles for higher tiers of each armor/bullet/turret/tank/logistics/combat bot/space upgrades with each taking some components from their respective "fields". Sure, that'll mean there are 7 extra types of research bottles but most of those things aren't really needed to "complete" the game (launch the rocket) anyway.

For people that want to finish all the research it might make sense to have a different goal than to just expand the production capacity of their base. Having to come up with new production automation makes sense in my opinion.

The expansion of the number of research bottles would be a preference to me, over the idea of endless research. although I think a max cap of 8 would also be my preference, with the idea that you could finish the game as it is now with only 4.

PS technically you could get 40 different items in from one side, if you used a train

[hoho]

This is great love it, but you should build it without using the extended underground belts mod, I think it would still work, just move the splitters on the wood/rail belt 1 to the left

It was actually Bob's mod that extended the belt range and I forgot that it wasn't in vanilla. I redesigned it with the basic underground belts as those aren't modified. It works but takes a bit more space (and a TON more underground belts )

belt madness

20160708180119_1.jpg (878.53 KiB) Viewed 5284 times

as for the power supply you could easily do it with the medium poles if you had a space between every second assembler.

True.
If you are leaving gaps between assemblers then it's possible to simplify the belt layout as well. If you can leave out even one of the six belts then powering the thing will become trivial as you can put the power pole in place of the inserter.

My design goal was to NOT have a gap between assemblers. Because reasons

The expansion of the number of research bottles would be a preference to me, over the idea of endless research. although I think a max cap of 8 would also be my preference, with the idea that you could finish the game as it is now with only 4.

I think the same thing. The 12 items per side/24 per research lab when using both sides example was just to show that it's possible to do, not that it's reasonable to actually have THAT many different research bottles.

PS technically you could get 40 different items in from one side, if you used a train

If you're clever and have your trains mobile you can have pretty much infinite amount of items. Just have each train stop for a few seconds so that needed things can be pulled out of it and the next wagon with new items can replace it.

It's also possible to just have an endless circular belt loop with a ton of different items on it. I'm almost certain it's possible to limit the total amount of each item type on it to be low enough that it everything required can fit on it with some combinator magic.

[OBAMA MCLAMA]

Ive read some silly posts, people talking about things they dont understand, and more.

The way it stands, it is perfectly fine.
For a new play, sp1 is easy. Jumpibg to sp2 will require more space and time depending on the person and what they have already seen of the game. Sp3 is yes, its a big jump, but you can research soo much stuff before you set up you oil. And the way it stands it is perfectly fine with it taking you to the next stage of the game, because things start changing quite a bit.
Its a focal point, as caveman age to the modern age.

With sp2, you can pretty much research everything you need to make all of your base, where sp3 is for refining your base, as such it makes sense to have complexity to make more complex things.

I have swen tons of people, friends, and streamers play till oil, set it all up, nd restart after they have finished it. Not because of just the oil, but because of their designs and wantijg to impove upon what they learned. Mysepf included, i restarted twice.

[Tricorius]

belt madness

I'm entertained by the implication a new-ish player would be able to more easily construct this belt / lab layout than be able to complete oil and blue science as it currently exists.

[Makk]

Science pack 1 has the player get familiar with basic automation - mines leading to smelters leading to assembly machines leading to labs
Science pack 2 requires more complex chains to be established, particularly the inserters, but it's not a huge jump.
Science pack 3 has steel, which is odd since steel is relatively easy to make, and smart inserters, which feel about right in complexity increase, but also advanced circuits and batteries - both of which require almost the entire oil industry to be set up.

Requiring oil in some way makes sense at this point, if only to ensure the player starts getting familiar with the oil industry, but the way it is seems too extreme.

Straying into Suggestions territory, but what if another science pack level was introduced? Presumably a silver color like the stack filter inserter, it'd become the new science pack 4, with the old alien artifacts one bumped up to 5. It'd be more complex than science pack 3, but to go along with this addition would be a change to pack 3 to be simpler - perhaps needing steel, smart inserters, and solid fuel. Bonus points if we also get solid fuel made out of crude oil so it can be made in an inefficient way to start, but get more efficient as the player gets used to the oil industry.

Adjustments would be needed for the tech tree, such as making some techs that only require packs 1 & 2 need the new pack 3; probably robot tech, since those require oil to make anyway. And of course some high level techs require the new pack 4 instead of the old pack 4, and some end-game techs requiring all 5 packs.

I think it's about right, makes sure you're completely on the level to advance further.

Then again I play with the marathon mod among others, so I'm used to a higher difficulty and complexity (Which I thoroughly enjoy).

[Makk]

However, I do like your idea for a fourth pack besides alien.

In general, this game can be jam packed with much more, and the horizon seems so show a lot of promise.