Pirating Factorio

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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by FreeER » Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:41 am

malokin wrote:but i have to make it check BOTH the experimental page and the regular download page
Actually, I think every single update will appear on the experimental first and then be moved to stable, if it's actually stable.
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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by malokin » Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:33 am

we'll see, i might try it again, i just can't bother automating it and then having it upload 4 versions of factorio twice
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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by slpwnd » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:35 am

@malokin, TGS: Keep it down guys! Personal attacks are NOT OK (caps use intended:)). FreeER put it well and I am happy he did. I know this is a controversial topic, but escalating it into provocation, calling names and insults is not the way to go. This holds for third-party people as well - I am talking about Tynan Sylvester reference some time ago. The fact that he has different opinions is NOT the base for personal attacks.

So far we have had the forum culture based on the mutual respect and politeness without the need for enforcing it via bans and post deletion. And it has worked VERY WELL imho. So let's stick to it. We can start the bans and deletion when we are a big corp :D

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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by Avarant » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:40 pm

I pirated the game to try it out. Loved it. Bought it.

I'm not gonna jump into the right/wrong debate. That's too huge of a discussion (and it's really up to the devs anyway - it's their baby).

However I WILL suggest that any pirated versions remain a few versions behind what paying customers have available. That way, any pirates who do really like the game have some incentive to buy it, instead of relying upon repeated pirating. With a game like this in alpha, that's essentially the same concept of a 'demo'. A fully playable lesser version of the game. And there's a whole different group of people who will pirate the game and never bother with the demo.

But if the devs don't want anyone sharing the game in such ways, then I think their wishes should be respected by their loyal customers. Just my 2 copper bars.

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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by Nova » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:10 am

That would not work Avarant. SOme other people would always upload the newest version - which would negate any positive effect.
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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by malokin » Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:32 am

Correct Nova! I was gonna post that but I'm trying not to be a Debbie Downer. I plan to upload every stable release at least, but every experimental release is going to be released first to an unnamed private tracker (so i can recoop my investment) and then a few days later a public release usually in the 64 bit exe format. I'll release any other versions that people request here or in comments, private message me for direct links to torrents.

Does anyone know if there will be a linux release for each version or just stables? I didn't see one for 0.8.3 but it was right after release so I don't know.

I also might have an inside track on the higher tier perks for after the release, i know i can get the scenario pack and high-res digital wallpapers ON release day easy peasy. So it's not 100% certain but I think I got a guy who will even let us get high res scans of the humble concept art book that i can make a pdf out of if no digital version of this thing exists. Please let me know if I need to get any more materials that relate to Factorio, I want to get a list together of content we'll need with a few different sources in case any "finders" drop out on release day.
Is there any kind of official cd/dvd version that I will need to make a CD Cover for?

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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by RawCode » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:50 am

i just suggest factorio to follow minecraft path in terms of piracy - online services that require legit version and wont work on pirated version.

legit users wont ever notice difference if implemented properly.

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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by malokin » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:09 am

Actually minecraft has "hacked" clients that allow people to play on official online servers for free! You might have to try getting into some private trackers to find one that still works tho. Let me explain:

Public releases (from sites like thepiratebay.org, kickass.to, etc etc) of hacked clients have a very short lifespan, but you can get a month or two out of the hacked clients you find on private torrent sites (invite only sites or pay-to-torrent sites).

If you can't get a hacked client to work, there are other clients that will only play on "pirate" servers that have their DRM functions disabled. These servers have all the same options for mods, customization and all that, there just arnt as many people as on the official legit servers.
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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by 3LollipopZ » Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:12 pm

Anyway, just to clarify, is Mr M, and Mr P & Mr T happy with this being on the bay of pieruts'?

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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by malokin » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:08 pm

If you mean the devs then Naw, they are very tolerant, more tolerant than most, but they still think it is wrong for people to try their game first without buying it. I think they get a warm fuzzy feeling inside when their fans tell me off, a foaming at the mouth fanbase is finally forming for this game (i mean i'm even here right, foam and all) and they get hungrier and hungrier like update starved zombies waiting in tight corridors to scoop out the dev's delicious brains.

A well known indie dev who will remain nameless for legal purposes had problems with people stealing their source, people discussing how to disable the DRM inside their game and torrents of unfinished unreleased versions being released by pirates; and all the other typical piracy problems that only devs mutter to themselves about. So, after a bunch of internet drama, some total douche ran a program that continuously loaded a list of all images and large files off of their websites and forums over and over from many different IPs. By morning, the attackers had sapped the bandwidth allowance of their site, and even after they hit their MB per month limit, their account was set up to keep hosting the site, but they were charged a flat fee for every single megabyte worth of data they went over their webhosting plan. That is not a fun way to spend your kickstarter money, and it was almost the straw that shot the camel in the face. They never did publicly say how bad the damage was. Anywayz, that was a long time ago and I don't think attacks like that even work anymore (Factorio uses amazon hosting, and they are fairly forgiving), but i think it is a good illustration about how fighting over something that is impossible to prevent maybe isnt a good use of the cash resources that your loyal public trusted you with.

Thats the big thing that forces me to respect this development team, even though they condemn pirates as criminals, they keep their eye on the prize and concentrate on developing the game. (we all blew a month playing don't starve, i dont hold that against you, just dont try kerbal space program :lol: ) I'd be really pissed if I payed to support a game like minecraft and they spent all my money on developing DRM that gets cracked the next day anyway, instead of trying to make their lighting engine work as good as the modders who created opti-fine did. I didnt pay money to the opti-fine team, howd they make the game better than the game's own devs? Every time i see a lit torch dimmed out in a glitch, I know in my heart I payed the wrong blokes. Its just nice to see a dev team who doesnt sit and count torrent statistics and try and calculate how much money they think they got robbed out of.
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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by FreeER » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:49 pm

3LollipopZ wrote:Mr T
pities the fool! (sorry couldn't resist).
but as to the question see this quote
slpwnd wrote:We have pretty much the same opinion with Kovarex regarding downloading the game from the torrents. If someone buys the game, well awesome. Don't really care whether he bought it straight away or tested it on the torrent first. If someone downloads it from the torrent, likes it / plays it, but never buys it - well not much we can do, at least he is having fun and maybe other people will learn about it this way (via him / her).
malokin wrote:but they still think it is wrong for people to try their game first without buying it
More like they don't appreciate the people that torrent the game and play it for a long time (whether they enjoy it or not) but NEVER pay for the time, money, and hard work they've put into creating the game, but understand that attempting to fight them is pointless long term.
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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by malokin » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:33 pm

The Devs might have a really soft way of saying he doesnt approve, but his quote seems to show he doesnt really approve of piracy, and would put a stop it if they could. (Which they cant)

"If someone buys the game, well awesome. Don't really care whether he bought it straight away or tested it on the torrent first. If someone downloads it from the torrent, likes it / plays it, but never buys it - well not much we can do"

That quote makes me assume that he WOULD stop people from enjoying and not buying his game IF THEY COULD. That sounds pretty anti-piracy to me, given he's really soft about it, he's still standing on the "pirates are thieves, and thats morally wrong" side of the argument. Otherwise, why not just say "If you like it I hope you buy it" thats what i hear all the time from centered individuals with a neutral position on piracy.

It sounds like it really hurts the devs when people who were never going to buy their game resort to downloading a copy on the internet, and I think that pain comes out of ignorance. I wish I could somehow show you a spike in the google searches, youtube videos, and your own sales when we pirates like me start taking your products all over the world flaunting them thusly.

Can we please avoid having the flamewar all over again every single time I update this thread FreeER?
I dont mind it when people come here for the first time mad, i'm very understanding about that, but haven't we had this entire discussion at length both in public and in private FOR DAYS? Do you really want to talk about it more? We can, its just rather tedious at this point for me. This is a topic devoted to pirating factorio, sorry it upsets you, but if the devs arnt in here belly aching I dont think any1 else needs to either, but of course first time complainers deserve their opinion to be voiced.
I didn't even create this thread, the devs thought it deserved to be separated into its own topic because of the heated discussion (flamewar) that was happening, and so, for the record, I dont go around starting threads on people's site just to pirate in their faces.
I'm keeping this thread going now because I was surprised I was the only one here who doesnt view piracy as illegal or immoral. The tidal wave of harsh opinions begs for the opposition to be heard, popular opinion doesnt need to be protected, it is only the opinions and ideas that are widely hated that need to be protected from censorship.
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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by Chrille » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:58 pm

Being very interested in internet privacy and the outdated legacy of trying to sell digital content in todays high speed internet environment, I had to read this thread.

For no good reason other than having actually read all of it and now feeling like saying "OY!" I will not do just that.

Malokin.. OY!
I understand that perhaps english isn't your mother tongue, but I think you're being overly defensive and aggressive when reading others posts.
There have been lots of people being positive to piracy as a means of being able to try out games before buying them in this thread and except for TGS noone has seemed to taken any actual offense at your posts.

FreeER is as far as I can tell not at all attacking you.

I'm saying this because I liked this dicsussion. But it get's so difficult to have discussions when one or more parts feel they are being attacked and act defensive.

To the Devs:
I applaud your open attitude. It's a lot easier to have that attitude when you are worried about losing money by buying games unseen. Not to easy when it's your own livelyhood. Theoretically one can easily calculate that piracy would cost you loads in lost income. But that is based on a huge fallacy.
Downloaded torrent != sold copy.
Not even close.

It hasn't really been mentioned yet.
Piratebay has among swedens highest hits. I don't know how much traffic globally is generated by it. Suffice to say. Lots more people might come across your game on piratebay than somehow stumbling on your homepage.
Of course, those are random stumblers, who are much less likely to buy the game than those of us who search for base building games or similar and thus found it and spent time looking at videos ( which were surprisingly bad for this game IMO. Rimworld, Dwarf fortress etc has much better fan made content so far. I almost feel like trying to do a let's play myself of this game. Should probably wait till you stop putting out major releases though :P)

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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by FreeER » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:01 pm

@malokin (not sure what I'd quote specifically or i would)
I probably wouldn't have said anything except that I was replying to 3LollipopZ anyways, however what I meant to point out was that what you said was nearly the exact opposite of what the devs said, you: that they dislike people torrenting to try the game and them: that they don't care either way when they pirate it only to try it before buying. Not trying to continue any flame war here but there are differences between approving of torrenting/piracy, not minding if it's only to see if it's worth the money being asked, and actually wanting to stop torrents/piracy regardless of the downloader's intention. And they've mentioned that those pirates could still bring some revenue (or more than them alone) by showing it to their friends. Also, if you look through the topic can you really say that I (since you mentioned me specifically) continue the flame war everytime you update? If you really think that I'd encourage you to read through the topic again.
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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by malokin » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:10 pm

Anyhoo... to get back ON TOPIC.

The first 64 bit copy went to an IP address in Switzerland almost immediately, and a few moments after that, a 32 bit copy went out to Thailand.

From midnight US Eastern time until noon. We distributed just short of 100 copies of 0.8.6 on thepiratebay.org, kickass.to, and a plethora of private trackers that I can't name for my own protection. I have to consider this release a big success, it ballooned so fast and even if I stopped seeding now, the torrent is out there forever. I'll maybe report back in a week with better statistics.

I can't tell you guys the joy it brings me to deliver a game as amazing as this one to the people of the world. I'm not an emotional guy but I do have to admit I get butterflies from the thought of people all over the globe getting to play this game even if they can't afford to pay for it. I'm like santa clause crossed with osama bin laden (before we finally got the bastard i mean). Imagine the beard that kind of religious chimera would possess. Bold. Wild. Unshaveable. :P

Thanks to everyone who put in the time to make this release possible, we couldn't have done it without the tireless efforts of people who don't mind being labeled thieves by popular opinion. Rock on pirates.
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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by BurnHard » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:19 pm

Am I the only one wondering why malokin has'nt been banned days ago by the devs from the forums?

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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by malokin » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:43 pm

FreeER wrote:@malokin (not sure what I'd quote specifically or i would)
I probably wouldn't have said anything except that I was replying to 3LollipopZ anyways, however what I meant to point out was that what you said was nearly the exact opposite of what the devs said, you: that they dislike people torrenting to try the game and them: that they don't care either way when they pirate it only to try it before buying.
No, I didnt say the opposite of what they said, they came out against piracy in a REALLY SOFT way. But re-read the quote, or even my post you arnt quoting, they said themselves "there isnt much we can do about it" thats not something some1 who is pro-piracy would say. I;m not saying that the factorio devs are the RIAA or something, I'm saying they don't like piracy whne people download their game and never pay for it. They said they were against that. And I don't feel any better just because they were "nice" about it.
When someone is passive aggressive, i treat it as normal agression, because passive aggression is just aggression wrapped in a bullshit lie. (of course i dont mean you or the devs, i'm just trying to explain that I still get insulted by very soft sugar coated insults that elude to the idea that I'm somehow amoral or a criminal or anything that eludes to piracy somehow being "wrong".)
FreeER wrote: Not trying to continue any flame war here but there are differences between approving of torrenting/piracy, not minding if it's only to see if it's worth the money being asked, and actually wanting to stop torrents/piracy regardless of the downloader's intention. And they've mentioned that those pirates could still bring some revenue (or more than them alone) by showing it to their friends. Also, if you look through the topic can you really say that I (since you mentioned me specifically) continue the flame war everytime you update? If you really think that I'd encourage you to read through the topic again.
Just re-read the whole thread for ya (speed reader here), maybe it was presumptuous to say "every time" i update the thread. instead I should have written "the first time" i update the thread you want to rehash the same argument you and I have had at lengths (both in public and in private, BOTH). Other than that one concession, yeah, i think your stiring the pot, and I'd like to have a piracy discussion. It isnt honest for you to say reread this thread, because I didnt make this thread, and half the responses out of this thread are elsewhere on the forums.
I really like the discussion, but I only find it tedious with you because your so dismissive and dont really respond to the things i say (with me in private mostly, you try to look pretty for your public posts, unlike me, who stays blunt to the point of distraction no matter where i am).
I've never seen any acknowledgements from the devs like you say, all I'v ever seen is a quote about how they would like it, if people who played the game and enjoyed it would buy it, and then they added, there isnt much we can do about it. I just think that quote begs the question: If god (lol) put some kind of an anti-piracy device in your hands, would you use it, and i think the devs would by their own quotes, they want cash for development MORE than they want every man woman and child on earth to play factorio.
Thats the main way i differ from them. I love the game, and I want it to grow up free and outgrow its creators like all children must. I'm sorry they think she's not ready but I think thats typical parenting. It's more important to me that people play this amazing game than anyone ever pays for it. Its not that I DONT want people to pay for it, I'm indifferent about that. But if the devs really think this project is only worth doing if they get paid enough to live on, they should release the source , and let people who would sacrifice their time in exchange for no money at all to finish this beautiful work of art. Eat my butt. :P
edit: damn SYNTAX!!!!!
Last edited by malokin on Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by malokin » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:51 pm

BurnHard wrote:Am I the only one wondering why malokin has'nt been banned days ago by the devs from the forums?
I know right, someone tar and feather that guy before he starts randomly flaming forum members again. ;)

edit: i just know people are going to assume the worst so let me make it clear, I'm trying to say in this post that I dont just flame random people, and I never have. You can click my profile and read all the posts I ever made (skip the ones without pictures, they suck mostly)
I think i'v been avoiding a ban by being legitimately helpful but maybe I'm just lying to myself, you all get to be the judge of that, although i really dont care what decision you all come to, they can ban a whole ip range or just accept me, i hope i'm earning my keep here tho.
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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by 3LollipopZ » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:46 am

@BurnHard: This forum is fine without the banning & censoring. + so difficult to enforce & not enrage the recipient.
@FreeER: Thanks for the link and yes, I think your interpretation is correct.
@malokin: You're reading into it me thinks.

@all: Arguing on the internet; even if you win, you're still retarded.

Maybe we should lock the thread and all behave like nice people again.... :P

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Re: Pirating Factorio

Post by malokin » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:09 am

3LollipopZ wrote:This forum is fine without the banning & censoring.
Maybe we should lock the thread and all behave like nice people again..
If you think a thread should be locked, why post in it? Maybe all the people who want it locked could just tear off, and just pretend its locked for them.
And all the people who dont want it locked, can just keep using it how they want.

Does that sound like a fair and "nice" compromise to you 3LollipopZ?
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