Newcomer's Negative Feedback

[Morgot]

Below I would like to explain my humble consideration about Factorio singleplay game-design concept. This is not actually suggestions but rather critics.

1. Science Packs
Science Packs concept seems to be typical crutch. Of course its production provide player necessary challenge but decision itself looks like something forced, ponderous and clearly un-realistic. However some kinds of "auto-lab" do exist in real world in form of massive data-centers, bit-coin mine farms and so on. I would like to remind that such kind of installations greatly depends not only on electricity but also on different types of cooling systems. Overclocking maintaining theoretically may consume water, power, oils, lubricants and other minor consumables like filters, batteries and rags and other parts. All this is not so far from current design but not so cripple.

2. Challenge and goal
Current idea with colony ship accident actually seems quite farfetched. However at least two typical challenges in real world constantly force mass production. I'm talking about arms production and debt service.
2.1. Arms, ammunition, and drones production certainly legit challenge but it's almost ruined by highly exploitable laser turrets. I would like not to describe this topic furthermore since I believe it already thoughtfully discussed on this forum (somewhere).
2.2. Dept and loan interest is another powerful force witch drive modern economics into constant expansion including mass production and intensive natural resource exploitation. This is well-corresponding to Factorio concept so exporting wares and bit-coin farming in order to cover dept service and pay for "downloadable" technologies or licenses seems quite more realistic. Yes, pay for techs, not research them in mystical auto-labs.

Thanks for reading, I've tried to be brief.

[nobodx]

Did I got this right?
You basically want to replace the science packs with bitcoins to buy technology instead of research them ?

[Morgot]

You basically want to replace the science packs with bitcoins to buy technology instead of research them ?

Maybe not so directly. Because you can't just pick and replace something without maintaining game concept integrity.

However current research concept is obviously lame and non-creative decision. Mass production style perfectly fits to warfare and economics of loans and consumption but not to research. Technologies are non-material intellectual products which must not be taken in same way as industrial wares.

Bitcoin mining was mentioned as one of possible solution because it includes energy consumption, complex high-tech manufacturing and infrastructure and thereby is fair example of industrial producing non-material product.

[ratchetfreak]

I don't see why we can't handwave the science packs into the bitcoin like setup as a consumable required for the computation

[oLaudix]

You are missing the point. The science pack is not the origin of technology. Its a concoction that fuels the AI in the Labs that research new things. The better grade the pack the better the results.

[Xterminator]

You are missing the point. The science pack is not the origin of technology. Its a concoction that fuels the AI in the Labs that research new things. The better grade the pack the better the results.

^ This. Obviously constructive criticism is good but what always blows me away are complaints like some of the ones you have about things not being realistic enough. I mean come on, this is a video game not a life simulator. Lol
Yes the idea of throwing these science potions into labs is a bit unrealistic but goes well with the games concept of having to automate things sense you have to automate each pack.
I am not trying to be mean or bash on your critics but do I need think some of them are bit too critical or not reasonable. Every single game I have ever played that has a research/technology system uses an "realistic" way of progressing through it. If you tried to be more realistic like you suggest using bitcoins or whatever I think it would make the game extremely boring.

[Kane]

lol, you want them to change a feature that people want more depth till the point they made a mod to extend and make it more gulling.

I hate to say it but this might be one game you might not enjoy.

[PiggyWhiskey]

I'm afraid I'd have to agree with comments against OPs. Making this game "realistic" is impossible.
We're dropped on a remote planet with no life support and no way to defend ourselves except for a pistol.
Never mind not being able to control pipes undegroiunderground.

But also keep in mind that this is still in alpha.

Constructive criticism is good, but saying one of the core objects of the game needs to change because it's not realistic is a little silly.


In saying all that, I'm sure it would be possible to make it into a bit coin mod (probably with a different name just in case)
Perhaps keep the labs and allow them to generate coins which can be spent to unlock more technologies. Or something like that.

[Peter34]

^ This. Obviously constructive criticism is good but what always blows me away are complaints like some of the ones you have about things not being realistic enough. I mean come on, this is a video game not a life simulator. Lol

Sometimes an increase in realism leads to drastically better gameplay. Compare AD&D to any 1980's RPG system that was designed by someone with even just half a brain. Light years better.

But sometimes an increase in realism doesn't lead to better gameplay.

In the context of a computer game, you have to think about how an increase (or "increase") in realism affects the player choice-making process:

What new choices will players be required to make (and what old choices may they be prevented from making)? What new play styles or approaches-to-making-a-factory does an increase in "realism" open up for (and which approaches or play styles does it close down because they've become completely unviable or at least de facto non-viable)?

A bit coin mining "data crunching"-process instead of the consumption of a physical product, may very well be a lot more realistic, but it in no way enhances gameplay.

[nobodx]

Despite the realism discussion, we crash landed on a planet. How could we spend those bitcoins to buy technology with no connection to any other human being? (Apart from other survivors in mp)

[cartmen180]

People, the bitcoin mining is just an example..

[Morgot]

A bit coin mining "data crunching"-process instead of the consumption of a physical product, may very well be a lot more realistic, but it in no way enhances gameplay.

Rather disagree. I'm not fan of overclocking but believe that data crunching sim may be quite interesting part of game especially if combined with existing Factorio content.

Factorio is cute and unique sim. Resource mining, production, effective automation, trains and so on quite exciting but still lack the main element - reason. We have no consumers in-game. And in my opinion science packs is certainly not the best solution of this problem. Obviously working, but certainly not ideal. So caring about some kind of demanding data crunching facilities similar to modern bitcoin mines may be legit alternative of supplying consumer goods for non-existing population.

We have manufacturing in game. Have chemical industry based on liquids. Have trains and electricity network. So data network or data centers seems legit. Especially since we have no population and farm production.

Despite the realism discussion, we crash landed on a planet. How could we spend those bitcoins to buy technology with no connection to any other human being? (Apart from other survivors in mp)

By no way of course. Things like bitcoin mining and exporting goods collides with current plot.

However if we have a plot about space ship crash or something it seems quite more logical to let player seek and collect items and equipment part which randomly scattered on planet surface. Such a goal will naturally stimulate prolonged expansion, exploring and related activity like fighting aliens which "guarding" artifacts and so on. Supplying warfare, wandering and expansion also seems a lot more natural reason for mass production than feeding auto labs with abstract science packs.

People, the bitcoin mining is just an example..

Yes, it is.

[Ranakastrasz]

While the mod itself makes science "More realistic" the implications of the descriptions make it clear that the 'Magic Science Potions" are used for destructive testing, being used up while trying to figure out how local conditions interact with technology. It implies that you already have all the tech that can be unlocked, but it wouldn't work properly. You have to run a lot of testing to figure out how to fine-tune stuff so it doesn't, like, blow up or something due to local conditions.

Still a stretch, but at least it gives an explaination.

You could imply that this is how it works in the base game as well.

[hitzu]

I agree with Mogot in some points. I've always thinking that current technology progress mechanics is just a placeholder. His point is not only about realism but also about enchancing current game mechanics and adding a good and reliable resource sink, something, that would make our bases to run and motivate us to expand more and more, throw us together with more biters and produce teh drama — the main motivator in games.

I don't want to touch the "realism" question even though making science of inserters is odd, that's why I said it resembles the placeholder. I want to say how mechanics enfluence our behaviour. The first time the player meets the technology concept is a genious built-in tutorial. The game just says: in order to progress you have to make a building that will provide this progress. But this building requires electricity — the whole new concept for that stage of burning coal machines. The player should craft the first science packs by hands, this is an easy task for the new player — just click and wait. But then comes the first step of automation and this is a mind-shift concept. Those steps are very important to keep untouched, at least in a form of concepts and ideas: a thing that requires reliable power, consumes resources in a processed form and produces progress. Why? Just because they work very well and there is no need for drastical changes.

At this moment we have to make long and complex production chains in order to get a progress. Well, in general. For me as a beginner player it was a quite challanging task just to make simple production line of red science. And it was OK. The red and green packs production ties well with other production chains and resource mining. But starting from blue packs the science problem is done. Science becomes the thing that we established and can forget. All that you do at this point is starting new research and waiting it finishes. The half of the tech tree we just skip in a semi automated mode almost without thinking. Purple science doesn't change this because making one-step production line is just a too simple task for us at this stage.

Also there are tons of intermediates that don't touch the science area. It was our main focus in the game, introducing us to the new areas of the game mechanics: electricity, automation and belts, production chains, ratios, oil industy. The science was our invisible guide and helper.
But what about some other aspects of the game? Without a Wiki and youtube tutorials I barely understood how ligistic network works, how to run train lines, it is mostly the mistery to me how combinators actually works and why we need rokets. Those systems now are part of the game, but they are not well integrated to it. But it can be done by consolidating them with science in a form of a data center that have tasks that would be hard to perform without all of the systems in a game.

For example first task would be just collecting some ores for scanning, collecting data and producing science. The more you scan the more sciene you get — place scanners near the belt with the ore. Data processing machines can produce more science, but they require active water cooling and exchangeable coal filters for the clean air that your base of course is lack of. Then perhaps your computers will require the data from distant radars and the bio samples, that can be collected in far away biomes by the local drone station and brought by trains (or manually in the car). Some parts of this data center could be optimized using combinators (quick example: a machine performs a task every one second, but it also produces heat that dissipates but slower than the rate of production. Each 1° of excess heat leads to the less output. The machine can work being hot, but if we slows it down using combitators then it will work better).

TL;DR
The main goals are:
— Making the science a big resource sink in all the stages of the game.
— Making it an important part of the game on every stage. Player should improve it, expand it and maintain it and not forget about it.
— Making some technologies infinite. There always should be something that the player can research.
— Making the science more informative for the player to understand how the game mechanics work.
— Making the science a little more believable. I'm not saying "realistic", but hey, the process of scanning something in order to produce the data and technologies out of it is more believable than squeezing robo arms and batteries into magic potions.

[Morgot]

Since infinite technologies was mentioned I would like to remind about good old "M.A.X.: Mechanized Assault & Exploration" game. This strategy somewhat similar to Factorio by spirit but much more hardcore and focused on complex strategy management instead of production only. In M.A.X. you have all techs available from beginning but this not helps you at all. You also in constant need of expand and acquiring more and more resources even despite of deposits' inexhaustibility.

Researching in M. A. X. is naturally infinite since consist in upgrades developing that anytime may change situation in sudden and drastic way. Which is actually much more refined decision than all this "enhancing module" mess in Factorio.

But this still is not all! You have 2 in principle different ways of acquiring upgrades in M. A. X. and both of them gives updates customised by player, not pre-defined.

I recommend everybody to have a look on M. A. X. design since it's quite simple and graceful.

[Gus_Smedstad]

It's weird that you should bring up M.A.X. since I was the AI programmer and I was heavily involved in the design - though I don't recall if I'm credited for the latter. I did the vehicle stats, the equations for upgrades, and the system for distributing resources. The basic framework for upgrades was Ali, I just worked out the details.

That said, I wouldn't hold the game up as an example of how to do technology. It's extremely basic, and only allows for a numeric diference, rather than a difference in kind. Systems where you unlock new ways of doing things are far more interesting to play than simple bonuses. Things like "oil refining" and "solar power" in Factorio are new technologies, not boosts to existing items.

Factorio's tech tree may be "unrealistic," but frankly I don't care about that one little bit. Any research approach by a single person is pretty silly stuff if you're talking about developing technologies - and what spacefaring race wouldn't already know 95% of what's in the tech tree? And focusing on "realistic research" in a game where you can carry a dozen locomotives and tanks in your pocket seems a bit off base.

[nobodx]

Imho I don't care if it's realistic or not, I justify want to research / unlock funny and cool new stuff.
What about a distractor capsule with a inflatable mannequin of yourself.
Or a female biter (with a pink ribbon xD ).
Or a rideable biter Ora launchable defense satellite (post v0.13)

[Morgot]

That said, I wouldn't hold the game up as an example of how to do technology. It's extremely basic, and only allows for a numeric diference, rather than a difference in kind.

Not a big surprise for me, I've already met developers which do not recognize strongest parts of their own product. These "numeric differences" actually the crucial, especially in modern warfare.

M. A. X. is great strategy. I would be playing it more but these persistent freezes on AI turn calculation ruin the game completely.

[Gus_Smedstad]

Not a big surprise for me, I've already met developers which do not recognize strongest parts of their own product. These "numeric differences" actually the crucial, especially in modern warfare.

You completely missed the point of what I said. I'm aware of how important the upgrades are. That doesn't change that it's a very different thing from a tech tree that unlocks new options, rather than just numbers.

[ratchetfreak]

That said, I wouldn't hold the game up as an example of how to do technology. It's extremely basic, and only allows for a numeric diference, rather than a difference in kind.

Not a big surprise for me, I've already met developers which do not recognize strongest parts of their own product. These "numeric differences" actually the crucial, especially in modern warfare.

M. A. X. is great strategy. I would be playing it more but these persistent freezes on AI turn calculation ruin the game completely.

It's more like do you want 50 different turrets each with slightly different stats of which most people will use one of two (the more bullet efficient one or the most DPS one)

Or do you want different types of turrets; machine gun, laser, shotgun, rocket,...